Replying to this here because it’s not really about politics any more. You’ve not made me personally feel any worse than I ordinarily would so no worries on that front, I just feel like the term being used as an insult is probably not great for anyone who does have these issues and already feels deficient enough without people sneering at them (the sensationalist media is far more responsible for that than any individual, but that doesn’t mean we have to perpetuate their attitudes).I agree, and am aware of the term's origins, I think it is very sad that a term that was meant to be merely descriptive (and also was meant to be used by people of any gender) has been taken over by a bunch of horrible misogynists I am sorry that you feel bad, it's easy for me to say you shouldn't but that would probably come off as a bit condescending I do understand that having a hard time finding sex doesn't mean you feel entitled to it. I know someone really nice who's been in that situation for a while and he feels similarly as you do, I wish I could convince him he's good enough
Replying to this here because it’s not really about politics any more. You’ve not made me personally feel any worse than I ordinarily would so no worries on that front, I just feel like the term being used as an insult is probably not great for anyone who does have these issues and already feels deficient enough without people sneering at them (the sensationalist media is far more responsible for that than any individual, but that doesn’t mean we have to perpetuate their attitudes).
I can’t speak for anyone else, but again speaking personally nothing will ever make me feel I am “good enough” to get anything I want in life short of actually getting it. It’s one thing to hear from other people that you’re worthy of success (whether that’s in love, wealth, career, whatever, and boy have I been told that a million times by people who care about me) but until you actually do achieve it, what evidence do you have that you are?
This is actually where I think cognitive behavioural therapy screws up a bit, because it’s evidence based and encourages you to avoid delusional thinking by examining whether the negative things you believe about yourself are actually true, but then when you fail miserably at everything that kind of falls apart because you then have ample evidence that you are in fact sh*t.
I think self-worth is for everyone to decide for themselves, if you can be happy just being you without feeling there’s anything more you want, so whatever you get beyond that is a bonus, then that’s great. I can’t imagine that will ever be enough for me personally, I just want my stresses and frustrations to end (preferably before my life does) and the causes of those are love and money or more accurately, a lack of both. “I don’t care too much for money, money can’t buy me love” as the (multi-millionaire) Beatles once sang, but if I can’t have the love I at least want the money, it’s the only way to grant yourself freedom in this world.Speaking as a disabled person I believe very strongly that a person's worth does not lie in their ability to work, become wealthy or find a lasting romantic relationship. I'm learning to love myself and I want everyone to be able to do the same, and I don't wish to find the kind of success that is measured in a comparative way by other people being "failures" or "losers". Not that I think you think that way I just thought my perspective and life philosophy might be helpful/relevant here
I mean, misogynist itself seems like the sensible term to use to describe misogynists (provided they actually are, I think it’s another very overused word that is meant to describe a very specific hateful mindset that women are intrinsically awful and worth less than men, but is these days often applied to casual sexism that would be much better addressed calmly and rationally rather than throwing around a term that implies people who say or do thoughtless, sexist things hate women: eg. “women are worthless sluts” = misogyny but “women are bad drivers” = sexism). I don’t really think it’s relevant to define a misogynist by how much sex or not they are having.I'll keep this in mind in future, it's helpful to have you guys' input, thankyou. Would appreciate any suggestions you have for what term to use instead to describe those incels who are misogynists, without throwing shade on involuntary celibates who are not?
You're very welcome, RadFem. This thread's all about constructive discussion leading to better understanding, for me.it's helpful to have you guys' input, thankyou.
Would appreciate any suggestions you have for what term to use instead to describe those incels who are misogynists, without throwing shade on involuntary celibates who are not?
I was going to go exactly where ayase did. Those kind of people would be misogynists whether they described themselves as incel or whether they were getting sex on a daily basis, quite frankly.I mean, misogynist itself seems like the sensible term to use to describe misogynists
This is also a very valid point, of course. There's a tendency within human society for a "race to the top" in using the strongest available terminology to describe something. (That point of mine there probably belongs back in the politics thread, but I don't ever read it. )I think it’s another very overused word that is meant to describe a very specific hateful mindset that women are intrinsically awful and worth less than men
Fun fact: when I was single (see: my whole life until only a few years ago), I genuinely feared being branded some kind of "sick, perverted sex pest" if I were to make a false move in my attempts to change my situation. The paranoid perception of an increasingly distressed mind, or a justified concern in light of the above paragraph? Your milage may vary.
More awesomeness our ridiculous society has brought about - I feel like for the most part, women still expect men to make the first move, but men (and women, actually) seem to be increasingly given the impression that making advances is a form of sexual harassment if it turns out they’re unwanted, but until you make an advance you can’t know if it’s unwanted or not. So nobody makes a move, and people stay alone. Cue resentment, and the creation of both male and female incels.Fun fact: when I was single (see: my whole life until only a few years ago), I genuinely feared being branded some kind of "sick, perverted sex pest" if I were to make a false move in my attempts to change my situation. The paranoid perception of an increasingly distressed mind, or a justified concern in light of the above paragraph? Your milage may vary.
Hey, it's totally not anything for you to feel any badness over, RadFem, but thanks. It's a situation that does indeed very much suck.I'm really sorry you felt that way Neil.T, I know it sucks.
That's... bloody awful, quite frankly. You should be able to get what you want out of it as well. There's absolutely nothing to feel bad about there whatsoever, to my mind.I had the same fear when I was younger and fresh out of some horribly messed up relationships with guys who were selfish in bed and made me feel bad about wanting to get off. I still find it really difficult to ask for what I want in that context now
That's... exactly how I'm seeing it as well. I redid the quote to cater for your edit, but I wouldn't have disagreed with the original sentiment either, simply because those are the cases that seem to garner the most sensationalist media attention. But if we're honestly living in a society that causes this of all things...I feel like for the most part, women still expect men to make the first move, but men (and women, actually) seem to be increasingly given the impression that making advances is a form of sexual harassment if it turns out they’re unwanted, but until you make an advance you can’t know if it’s unwanted or not. So nobody makes a move, and people stay alone. Cue resentment, and the creation of both male and female incels.
... then we really are f**ked.I feel like a creep for making the first move too sometimes
This discussion's gotten really interesting.I just mean that I think that some people feel a certain sense of entitlement to never be the subject of anyone else's fantasies and I'm a bit like "please explain to me why I should care about your non-problem, that you are strangely indignant about?" As long as someone doesn't harass me their thought are their own business really. Why do we (society we not you or me in particular) have this unhealthy obsession with trying to sanitize and sterilize the contents of our minds and sexuality until there is little to nothing left?