Do you support gay marriage?

[CitizenGeek]

Nobody knows how sexual preference is decided, so I think that flame war should be killed off now.

Not exactly true; the statements from the APA suggest that most scientists agree that it's a combination of biological and external factors.

There are many (weird) physical differences between homosexual men and women and their heterosexual counterparts, so it says in this (informative) Wikipedia article says about this.

Some of the weirdest ones are:

- Gay and non-gay people emit different armpit odors.

- Gay men have, on an average, slightly longer and thicker penises than non-gay men.

- Finger length ratios between the index and ring fingers may be different between non-gay and lesbian women.

Yeah, weird. But still true!

That can't all be purely coincidental. There's definitely something biological about homosexuality, right?

All of the ignorant comments about it stemming from abusive females in the man's life are absurd though. Firstly, gay men (as in this example) tend to get along very well with women in general - CG says he has lots of female friends.

Indeed; gay men and women are noted for frequently being friends. Most gay men adore their mothers. It's absurd to suggest that an abusive mother (or father, for that matter) triggers homosexuality.

It most certainly is not a lifestyle choice.

If only your opinion was more widely held! :]

Fine.

Gay people can get married.

How nice of you. Now, do you care to further explain some of, er, unusual opinions you've expressed in this thread? ;]

 

[Zen 2nd]

How nice of you. Now, do you care to further explain some of, er, unusual opinions you've expressed in this thread? ;]

That was my speak first, think later side of the brain posting.

 

[Rui]

Not exactly true; the statements from the APA suggest that most scientists agree that it's a combination of biological and external factors.

Nobody *knows* though, they just have strong theories. I'm a scientific type and am very, very strict about saying something is *known* until it's absolutely understood/proven I'm not disagreeing with you personally; just remember reading about times when most scientists agreed that the earth was flat etc. People are such devilishly complicated creatures.

I'm sure you're right about the physical differences though; the finger ratio thing in girls is generally understood to be related to the hormonal balance the female foetus is exposed to in the womb (no doubt there's something similar for men as well as various other indicators for both genders). By that assumption I had a fair amount of exposure myself from my finger lengths; I identify with being straight but I'm definitely less classically girly than a lot of females I know. Secretion of pheromones and scent will be directly linked to hormones too.

Hormones are fascinating things which have a massive impact on how we think and act in all kinds of ways so there's certainly good reason to explore the association with those and sexual preferences.

R

 

[Dracos]

Homophobia lyrics by Chumbawamba

Up behind the Bus-stop in the toilets off the street
There are traces of a killing on the floor beneath your feet
Mixed up with the piss and beer are bloodstains on the floor
From the boy who got his head kicked in a night or two before

Homophobia
The worst disease
You can't love who you want to love in times like these

In the pubs, clubs and burgerbars breeding pens for pigs
Alcohol, testosterons and ignorance and fist
Packs of hunting animals roam across the town
They find an easy victim and they punch him to the ground

Homophobia
The worst disease
You can't love who you want to love in times like these

The siren of the ambulance the deadpan of the cops
Chalk to mark the outline where the boy first dropped
Beware the holy trinity - church and state and law
For every death the virus gets more deadly then before

Homophobia
The worst disease
You can't love who you want to love in times like these

 

[Ushio]

I still stand by the my opinion that you can't be born gay.

I'm inclined to agree with you. I'd like to think that I can be straight/gay/whatever because I choose to be, not because I was born that way. Predestination is a weak-minded response for people who can't be arsed to make their own decisions in life.

In terms of marriage v. civil partnership. Why should there be a difference? Apart from all the religious paraphernalia, marriage only really comes down to being a legal agreement between two individuals. If both parties happen to share the same gender - what difference does it make?

There's definitely something biological about homosexuality, right?

No. To be crude it depends on where you're putting your personal parts which in my mind makes it a physical thing more than anything else. You're not born putting your pecker into anything. You do that bit later.

If I were to say that all Irish are stupid because they're biologically born that way you'd think me insane and most likely racist (and rightly so). But the fact that people can even entertain these thoughts on the gay/straight topic is just as insane imo.

 

[CitizenGeek]

I hope the 4 people that voted against gay marriage know that they are justifying the climate thats lead to the death of many, many gay people, most recently Lawrence King, a 15-year-old who was killed days after admitting he was gay to his classmates. Yep, when you deny basic rights to gay people, and make them second-class, almost-citizens, then you're legitimising the atmosphere that makes people so disgusted by homosexuality that they would hurt those who are gay and, despite the fact that pretty much everyone (with the exception of fabricatedlunatic) in this thread doubts whether it's a choice or not, really have no control over it.

Nobody *knows* though, they just have strong theories. I'm a scientific type and am very, very strict about saying something is *known* until it's absolutely understood/proven

But all theories are just "correct until proven otherwise". They're just accepted until a better explanation becomes clear; at least that's what my Biology teacher and textbook say. With this in mind, the idea that homosexuality is not a choice is by far the prevailing medical and psycho-scientific theory, so why wouldn't you accept it? :s

Hormones are fascinating things which have a massive impact on how we think and act in all kinds of ways so there's certainly good reason to explore the association with those and sexual preferences.

There's a fairly interesting, currently in development theory that it's the effect of hormones on the foetus that determines sexual orientation.

Homophobia lyrics by Chumbawamba

That's a very cool piece from Chumbawamba. It's such a pity that more straight guys don't stand up against homophobia, because they're afraid it'll make them seem gay :/

I'm inclined to agree with you. I'd like to think that I can be straight/gay/whatever because I choose to be, not because I was born that way.

Well, if you're straight (and it's really only straight people that have this opinion), could you see yourself 'choosing' to be gay, having regular gay sex, potentially falling in love with another man and spending the rest of your life with a man?

Predestination is a weak-minded response for people who can't be arsed to make their own decisions in life.

Predestination and sexual orientation seem like totally different things to me ...

If I were to say that all Irish are stupid because they're biologically born that way you'd think me insane and most likely racist (and rightly so). But the fact that people can even entertain these thoughts on the gay/straight topic is just as insane imo.

But there's a difference between someone's mental capacity and sexual orientation. Whats with the equating of sexual orientation to things like mental capacity and fate? :s

 

[Rui]

Er, I never said I think it's a choice. I said it's debatable that it's something we're born with (and I will keep that frame of mind for both homo and hetero sexuality in humans until it's absolutely proven, despite my personal leanings), but not that I personally think it's chosen. As you said, why would so many people decide to be gay if it was a conscious choice? It's not easy! It's not even certain if it's the same for everyone, so I was objecting to the people who were making like amateur psychologists and pretending they knew why every gay man on earth preferred to seek out another man based on imaginary mother complexes etc .

Agree that it's not about fate, any more than I can change that I am born a woman I can live like a man if I feel I have to, and a gay man can live like a straight man if forced, but we are what we are on that basic level. I can take hormones/surgery to be like a man; maybe there are hormonal treatments to change sexual preferences too (I'm sure they can alter sexual identity in animal experimentation this way) but if what we both are isn't broken there's no justification to "fix" it. We're fine.

R

 

[fabio de lunatico]

I still stand by the my opinion that you can't be born gay.

I'm inclined to agree with you. I'd like to think that I can be straight/gay/whatever because I choose to be, not because I was born that way. Predestination is a weak-minded response for people who can't be arsed to make their own decisions in life.

How can you choose which gender you're attracted to? You just are. A choice is a conscious decision. Did you make a conscious decision to find women more attractive than men? Or did that just happen naturally?

I fail to see how acknowledging that having no control over our sexual preference equates to being too lazy to make decisions. You totally lost me there.

 

[rick]

Predestination is a weak-minded response for people who can't be arsed to make their own decisions in life.

I can see where you're coming from, and I agree. I'd rather be in control of my life than have it set in stone the moment I'm born.

 

[Ushio]

I'm inclined to agree with you. I'd like to think that I can be straight/gay/whatever because I choose to be, not because I was born that way.

Well, if you're straight (and it's really only straight people that have this opinion), could you see yourself 'choosing' to be gay, having regular gay sex, potentially falling in love with another man and spending the rest of your life with a man?

This question goes on the assumption that there's a fundamental difference between being straight or gay. If people go round thinking 'I'm straight' to themselves then already it's a conscious decision that's being repeated in their mind.

Regarding the stereotype of being told to 'pick up the soap' while in prison. What you term as 'straight' guys being able to have anal sex can go on, while still being able to retain their 'straight' mentality. A lot of guys have a purely physical need even when there aren't any women around (and don't have the imagination the use their right hand man). Why feel the need to divide people into easily defined boxes of being straight/gay anyway? Many people are a lot more complex than that and have their own individual reasons for doing what they do. Relying on generalized statistics (which are based on comparatively few people) and general old wives' tales seems fairly limiting. It also encourages a mindset where you prejudge people with your own prejudices which isn't cool imo.

But there's a difference between someone's mental capacity and sexual orientation. Whats with the equating of sexual orientation to things like mental capacity and fate? :s

What difference is this? My genes don't allow me to understand without a logical explanation...

Are gender, colour and sexual orientation the only things predetermined in the womb then and not other school yard discriminations like having a small head, uneven lengths of fingers, smelling funny armpits or whatever?

I'd say that sexual orientation (as well as a person's race) are cultural as opposed to biological things. It's only gender and physical appearance we can't decide on. Everything else is down to you.

In addition: Some people get turned on by looking at sheep instead of men or women, does that mean people are born that wayas well and they're lying to themselves if they don't act on their physical impulses? I bet there's a higher ratio of them with curly underarm hair too... (see, it sounds silly doesn't it?)

How can you choose which gender you're attracted to? You just are. A choice is a conscious decision. Did you make a conscious decision to find women more attractive than men? Or did that just happen naturally?

I fail to see how acknowledging that having no control over our sexual preference equates to being too lazy to make decisions. You totally lost me there.

'I'm gay so I must like men.' --- 'I'm straight, so I must like women.'

You're thinking too much about it and relying too much on what you've taught yourself to believe. (unless you developed your sexual tastes at around 2 years old or something )

If you were to develop a crush for someone on the this forum only to then find out their gender opposed your sexual orientation you'd be in for a shock. It's possible to go for someone based on their personality you know...

(and just to clarify in case anyone was doubting - yes I am straight )

 

[CitizenGeek]

Ushio ... erm, let's just say I really, really don't think you've put any thought into this issue. At all ;]

This question goes on the assumption that there's a fundamental difference between being straight or gay.

Eh, there is a difference between gay and straight. Namely, when you're gay, you are attracted to the same sex, and when you're straight you are attracted to the opposite sex. It's really quite a simple concept.

If people go round thinking 'I'm straight' to themselves then already it's a conscious decision that's being repeated in their mind.

What are Earth are you talking about? Lots of gay people do "go around thinking 'I'm straight' ", but that's never changed their sexual orientation. They can pretend to be straight, but they can't decide it. I think you may have missed my previous posts.

Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?

No.
~That's from the American Psychologists Association's FAQ on sexual orientation (keep in mind that they have been studying this issue for decades).

I don't think they could be any clearer than that. So, what makes you think you can legitimately hold that opinion even though a huge psycho-scientific organisation has just told you that you're wrong? :s

Regarding the stereotype of being told to 'pick up the soap' while in prison. What you term as 'straight' guys being able to have anal sex can go on, while still being able to retain their 'straight' mentality. A lot of guys have a purely physical need even when there aren't any women around (and don't have the imagination the use their right hand man). Why feel the need to divide people into easily defined boxes of being straight/gay anyway?

Again, there's a difference between sex and sexual orientation. Yes, two straight guys could have anal sex, and they could kiss and all that. But, they'll still be straight, they'll be attracted to women. Likewise, gay men can have sex with women, but they'll still be attracted to men. What is your problem with this concept?

Relying on generalized statistics (which are based on comparatively few people) and general old wives' tales seems fairly limiting. It also encourages a mindset where you prejudge people with your own prejudices which isn't cool imo.

You're not making any sense at all! Seriously, what on Earth are you rambling about? What generalised statistics? What old wives tales? I've no idea where you got the idea of prejudice from? You're being absurd, Ushio ;]

I'd say that sexual orientation (as well as a person's race) are cultural as opposed to biological things.

Homosexuality is not 'cultural'. There are gay people in every single culture; and there always has been :roll:

It's only gender and physical appearance we can't decide on. Everything else is down to you.

Why are you acting like you're a scientist? You're clearly not. Neither am I, but at least I'm backing up what I say with research from actual scientists. You're just jumping to wild, seemingly arbitrary conclusions without even presenting any evidence demonstrating how you came to those conclusions.

In addition: Some people get turned on by looking at sheep instead of men or women, does that mean people are born that wayas well and they're lying to themselves if they don't act on their physical impulses? I bet there's a higher ratio of them with curly underarm hair too... (see, it sounds silly doesn't it?)

Well, I wish I could say I was surprised that you were comparing homosexuality with zoophilia, but after the long list of absolute nonsense that you've been spewing about it, I'm really not. As that APA will tell you, homosexuality is not something that develops within you. I'm sure you've never heard of anyone who was attracted to animals, instead of people, from a young age. But most gay people will tell you that they've always known they were attracted to the same sex instead of the opposite sex. Something triggers zoophilia (I don't know what), but homosexuality is endemic.

Honestly, if I were a more sensitive person, I would be outraged at what this thread (and especially what Zen 2nd and Ushio) has produced ...

 

[fabio de lunatico]

'I'm gay so I must like men.' --- 'I'm straight, so I must like women.'

And how do people reach these conclusions? Attraction is a natural feeling, not a decision.

You're thinking too much about it and relying too much on what you've taught yourself to believe. (unless you developed your sexual tastes at around 2 years old or something )

Eh? I have given practically no thought to my sexual orientation. I am attracted to women and not men. That's it. I can choose whether to act on my attraction, but not whether I feel that attraction.

If you were to develop a crush for someone on the this forum only to then find out their gender opposed your sexual orientation you'd be in for a shock. It's possible to go for someone based on their personality you know...

It's an interesting point, but a "crush" is not sexual attraction.

 

[CitizenGeek]

If you were to develop a crush for someone on the this forum only to then find out their gender opposed your sexual orientation you'd be in for a shock. It's possible to go for someone based on their personality you know...

Like fabricatedlunatic just said, a "crush" is not sexual attraction. And it's likely that this crush would have developed with you thinking that your "crush" was the gender you're attracted to.

(and just to clarify in case anyone was doubting - yes I am straight )

I never doubted that you were straight; no gay person could ever hold your opinions ;]

 

[Ushio]

You're not making any sense at all! Seriously, what on Earth are you rambling about? What generalised statistics? What old wives tales? I've no idea where you got the idea of prejudice from? You're being absurd, Ushio ;]

This'll do for a start:

Some of the weirdest ones are:

- Gay and non-gay people emit different armpit odors.

- Gay men have, on an average, slightly longer and thicker penises than non-gay men.

- Finger length ratios between the index and ring fingers may be different between non-gay and lesbian women.

Yeah, weird. But still true!

It seems like my definitions are different from your a bit which is where there's confusion. Mine focuses on real-life physical sex, basing my opinion on people on what they actually do with their lives rather than what goes on in their heads (if it doesnt happen in the real world, then it doesnt make much odds what you are imo).

I need to take a proper look at that report I think, but I'd still take it with a pinch of salt as it depends very much on the background and funding that support support the research.

 

[Zen 2nd]

I've changed my views people so please don't annoy with me crap that I've said before that.

When I say that your not born gay I also don't mean that a person chooses to be gay instead.

You mentioned CK about the boy who announced at school that he was gay and subsequently murdered because of it, wouldn't you be more worried about the fact that these kids could actually just murder a person in the first place regardless if that person is gay or not? Shows that the school children were nutcases to begin with why would someone think announcing that they are gay go down well in that school?

Also I don't like the way gay people have to announce this stuff. Is it that gay people aren't fully gay till everyone knows?

Oh and by the way CK, I haven't voted on the poll yet. :roll:

 

[Rui]

I can choose whether to act on my attraction, but not whether I feel that attraction.

I think this is the key nugget of truth that some of us are missing. People seem to be confusing the idea of choice (which to me connotes a conscious decision) with natural impulses. Which, whether they come from genes, society, hormones or cosmic rays, tend to make people miserable if completely marginalised or criticised for no reason (in this case they're not hurting anyone).

It's admirable to say that we have free will etc, but it has boundaries. If it was found that people with blue eyes are worse at maths than people with brown eyes, on the whole (I'm making this up to avoid racial/sexual debates derailing the thread), Ushio is right in that the person with blue eyes can still prevail and overcome the statistics to be top of their class. However. They will always have blue eyes. It shouldn't be an issue if they do, but some people are making it one.

Similarly, a lesbian (I'm bored of using male examples ;p) can live like a straight woman if she chooses to, have children and a husband and so on. But. She will still be a lesbian if that's what she feels inside.

Since we live in a supposedly free atmosphere in the UK, it's my view that people should be able to be what they are, for whatever reason, so long as it's not detrimental to anyone else. I don't see the point in making any harmless group of people in society - homosexuals, women, people with different coloured skin - feel miserable for being what they are.

Frankly it shouldn't even matter when they know they are homosexual either, whether it's age 2 or 20, any more than it matters if a straight male starts actively pursuing girls at 10 or 30. I didn't care about sex until I was 16 or so but often people form opinions earlier/later than that.

In this case the free will side to me, if anything, supports allowing gay marriage. Just because they fell in love with a mate of the same gender, why should they be destined to be forbidden the same rights as someone in the same circumstances picking differently? CG fighting to change entrenched social pressures is certainly going against the "easy" path so the excuse that he's being weak doesn't hold water.

R

 

[Rui]

4/24 not supporting gay marriage is a pretty impressive result considering how many have been vocal opponents in the thread. One of whom has even withdrawn his views publically which admittedly takes guts

That kind of majority bodes well for the future in my opinion.

I wonder how many of the four were just against marriage in general rather than specifically granting the same rights to homosexuals.

I sort of consider the top two options the same thing as I *do* think people should be equal but voted the second because of the marriage=christianity mindsets people have in this country and think religious marriages by definition have exclusivity clauses which followers probably agree with anyway (I'm thick and don't understand the terminology). I wonder how voting would be if a poll was more like:

1. I think gay and straight people should have the same marital rights.
2. I think gay people should have inferior marriages or none at all.
3. I am against all marriages for whatever reasons.

Where the first choice means the same secular rights in full; religious rights may be defined by each religion. So nothing would be stopping one of the free churches accommodating say, Christian homosexuals who had figured out making peace with their beliefs and their feelings and wanted to have a religious wedding (at the moment, if you have a civil ceremony like mine no mention of a deity can be made - that's a bit weird and archaic). Preempting anyone saying being gay goes against some line in the bible, so does an awful lot of other stuff that Christians of various denominations do (that's why there are so many interpretations and arguments).

I'm not religious anyway, I just think in the US at least a lot of the problems homosexuals have had with getting equal rights lie in inexplicably powerful religions getting upset their right to make rules is being taken away, when it's not really anything to do with them in the first place for the majority of people involved.

R

 

[Ushio]

I can choose whether to act on my attraction, but not whether I feel that attraction.

I think this is the key nugget of truth that some of us are missing. People seem to be confusing the idea of choice (which to me connotes a conscious decision) with natural impulses.

There we go. You can put it much better than me without being told you're crazy (I'm just a bit cranky these days so don't mind my earlier intensity :twisted. I agree with the rest of your post too as you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

To me, it doesn't matter what you're supposed to be so long as you're happy with what you're doing with your life. If the law is changed to allow even more people some good times, then I say go for it.

 

[Tachi]

I've changed my views people so please don't annoy with me crap that I've said before that.

When I say that your not born gay I also don't mean that a person chooses to be gay instead.

You mentioned CK about the boy who announced at school that he was gay and subsequently murdered because of it, wouldn't you be more worried about the fact that these kids could actually just murder a person in the first place regardless if that person is gay or not? Shows that the school children were nutcases to begin with why would someone think announcing that they are gay go down well in that school?

Also I don't like the way gay people have to announce this stuff. Is it that gay people aren't fully gay till everyone knows?

Oh and by the way CK, I haven't voted on the poll yet. :roll:

For a unknown reason i'd like to point out the hate towards gays,
the following story is 100% true and none bias on my part....

there's this guy who was in my high school, was a snob and had the queerest voice i've ever heard! his name is andrew and he annoyed everyone with his incessant *im better than you* view to everyone else, he denied all accounts of being gay however he commonly used the hand jestures that queer people tend to use. and when we all left high school he openly announced he was gay.

the "coming out of the closet" implies that it is a concious decision to be attracted to the same or other sex.

 

[Rui]

the "coming out of the closet" implies that it is a concious decision to be attracted to the same or other sex.

What?

Coming out of the closet refers to putting behind you a state where you had trapped your true feelings and self inside a metaphorical closet. You don't turn gay when you admit to it (i.e. come out of the closet). You were already gay but just acknowledged it publically to avoid misunderstandings.

That the guy you knew was an ass has nothing to do with him being gay. Usually people who act pompously are overcompensating for fragile senses of self worth inside. Which is no excuse for lording over other people, but nor is one person being lame an excuse to generalise all people who share a randomly selected trait either.

I could say from your story that you described a jerk who happened to be male, too. Would it be fair for me to use that as a basis to criticise all males? How about people with his hair colour? People called Andrew? People who wiggled their wrists (hardly any homosexuals do this more than anyone else, outside of television)?

R