Do you support gay marriage?

[shira]

Also, two dudes shacking up and copulating like neutered dogs isn't the same as the two traditional marriage candidates, so why should their marriage be treated the same?

So, do you think that straight couples who use contraception, heterosexual couples who cannot conceive because of medical reasons, older couples no longer able to conceive and couples who take measures to stop conception (for example, a male vasectomy) and thus "copulate like neutered dogs" should be denied marriage too?

You can try and justify this by the smallest common denominator, freak accidents and scenarios, and self mutilation (majorly incurred voluntarily), then you're heading up **** creek my friend- no pun intended.

The fact is, two men uniting aren't the same as a man and a women; they're just not, therefore eliminating the traditional idealogy behind marriage.

Two guys could cross swords and live together, but they shouldn't be eligible candidates for marriage. For adopting a cat or two? Sure, but not marriage.

I must say, thats pretty well put.

 

[CitizenGeek]

You can try and justify this by the smallest common denominator, freak accidents and scenarios, and self mutilation (majorly incurred voluntarily), then you're heading up **** creek my friend- no pun intended.

How so? You made the point that marriage's function was centred on children, and that's why you think it's not suitable for gays. But then why would you allow straight couples that can't conceive to get married, too? The argument that marriage is an institution built for the conception, and subsequent rearing, of children (the argument that you used) is simply thinly veiled homophobia.

The fact is, two men uniting aren't the same as a man and a women; they're just not, therefore eliminating the traditional idealogy behind marriage.

The "traditional ideology" was that black people were second class to white people for the longest time. That women weren't allowed vote. That divorce was wrong. That children born outside of wedlock were "bastards" and not as important as "legitimate" children. That having sex outside of marriage was morally wrong. That using condoms was wrong, etc.

You get the point, right? Just because something is "traditional", that doesn't make it right.

Two guys could cross swords and live together, but they shouldn't be eligible candidates for marriage. For adopting a cat or two? Sure, but not marriage.

That's absurd. Homosexuality has existed for as long as heterosexuality. It's been observed in thousands of species of animals. It's clearly 'natural' and clearly not a choice. So, then, why would you deny rights to human beings born gay?

 

[Ryo Chan]

i can see this thread crossing the boundries and getting offencive

 

[shira]

I think it has :lol: It was doomed to be this way from the start.

 

[CitizenGeek]

i can see this thread crossing the boundries and getting offencive

It was there from Aion's first post. And then there was every other post made by Aion. And then there was Kurogane's "up **** creek- no pun intended" comment. It's definitely offensive, but that's to be expected. The sad fact is that many heterosexual men are very insecure and feel the need to laugh at homosexuality as a way to reassure themselves. So, it's to be expected that a topic dealing with homosexuality on a forum with a majority male userbase would attract such comments :]

 

[Kurogane]

You can try and justify this by the smallest common denominator, freak accidents and scenarios, and self mutilation (majorly incurred voluntarily), then you're heading up **** creek my friend- no pun intended.

How so? You made the point that marriage was for children, and that's why you think it not suitable for gays. But then why would you allow straight couples that can't conceive to get married, too? The argument that marriage is an institution built for the conception, and subsequent rearing, of children (the argument that you used) is simply thinly veiled homophobia.

The fact is, two men uniting aren't the same as a man and a women; they're just not, therefore eliminating the traditional idealogy behind marriage.

You're not born gay.

Something in your life obviously influenced your choice to stick with your own gender sexually, rather than walking the plank to the land of the moist bean.

Grew up with no father? Beaten up by girls? Abusive mother?

All fesable reasons why you prefer to ride on the pogostick.

The "traditional ideology" was that women should stay at home, and shouldn't be allowed to work once married. The "traditional ideology" was that black people were second class to white people for the longest time. The "traditional ideology" was that women weren't allowed vote. That divorce was wrong. That children born outside of wedlock were "bastards" and not as important as "legitimate" children. That having sex outside of marriage was morally wrong.

You get the point, right? Just because something is "traditional", that doesn't make it right.

Two guys could cross swords and live together, but they shouldn't be eligible candidates for marriage. For adopting a cat or two? Sure, but not marriage.

That's absurd. Homosexuality has existed for as long as heterosexuality. It's been observed in thousands of species of animals. It's clearly 'natural' and clearly not a choice. So, then, why would you deny rights to human beings born gay?

You're not born gay.

Something in your life obviously influenced your choice to stick with your own gender sexually, rather than walking the plank to the land of the moist bean.

Grew up with no father? Beaten up by girls? Abusive mother?

All fesable reasons why you prefer to ride on the pogostick.

As for the traditional idea's of ******** you mentioned, those are all subjectable to which century a couple lived in, how societal behaviour was regulated, and which laws governed a certain area, instead of simply understanding what I was getting at:

A + B =C

So you're refuting the fact that two men are somehow identical to a man and a woman?

******* incredible, no wonder that lit a fire under you.

 

[Aion]

Two homosexuals getting married in this world would only create problems; problems for themselves and for any children they adopted.

How do you think people in this society would treat a gay couple who got married? Certainly not with respect. If they were very lucky they'd only get constant whispering behind their backs and people openly laughing at them, but if they were unlucky they would get bullied, humiliated and a few beatings. Our society simply will not accept a homosexual marriage as normal.

If they adopted a child it would be hell for that child. Firstly, the child (if a straight boy) would be disgusted with them and want to escape because, frankly, a straight male does not want to see other males getting it on in front of him. Secondly, they would get bullied, called a homo on a daily basis and have a ****** life at school as a result - Be treated like a freak.

It's normal for a man and a woman to be together; that's the whole idea behind men needing women and women needing men to breed. I'm sure that ****** who cursed me, God, didn't create our species like he did if he wished for homosexuality - We would surely be able to reproduce without being split into sexes if that were the case. Marriage is based on this logic; a holy union of man and woman as intended by the creator... It wasn't created to celebrate homosexuality.

 

[Kurogane]

Two homosexuals getting married in this world would only create problems; problems for themselves and for any children they adopted.

How do you think people in this society would treat a gay couple who got married? Certainly not with respect. If they were very lucky they'd only get constant whispering behind their backs and people openly laughing at them, but if they were unlucky they would get bullied, humiliated and a few beatings. Our society simply will not accept a homosexual marriage as normal.

If they adopted a child it would be hell for that child. Firstly, the child (if a straight boy) would be disgusted with them and want to escape because, frankly, a straight male does not want to see other males getting it on in front of him. Secondly, they would get bullied, called a homo on a daily basis and have a ****** life at school as a result - Be treated like a freak.

It's normal for a man and a woman to be together; that's the whole idea behind men needing women and women needing men to breed. I'm sure that ****** who cursed me, God, didn't create our species like he did if he wished for homosexuality - We would surely be able to reproduce without being split into sexes if that were the case. Marriage is based on this logic; a holy union of man and woman as intended by the creator... It wasn't created to celebrate homosexuality.

And theatre musicals were also created to be ostricised by everyone.

There's a paradox.

 

[shira]

Two homosexuals getting married in this world would only create problems; problems for themselves and for any children they adopted.

How do you think people in this society would treat a gay couple who got married? Certainly not with respect. If they were very lucky they'd only get constant whispering behind their backs and people openly laughing at them, but if they were unlucky they would get bullied, humiliated and a few beatings. Our society simply will not accept a homosexual marriage as normal.

If they adopted a child it would be hell for that child. Firstly, the child (if a straight boy) would be disgusted with them and want to escape because, frankly, a straight male does not want to see other males getting it on in front of him. Secondly, they would get bullied, called a homo on a daily basis and have a ****** life at school as a result - Be treated like a freak.

It's normal for a man and a woman to be together; that's the whole idea behind men needing women and women needing men to breed. I'm sure that ****** who cursed me, God, didn't create our species like he did if he wished for homosexuality - We would surely be able to reproduce without being split into sexes if that were the case. Marriage is based on this logic; a holy union of man and woman as intended by the creator... It wasn't created to celebrate homosexuality.

No one can deny any of that really can they...

 

[Aion]

I would just like this chance to point this out: I have nothing against CG.

Him being straight, gay, bi or asexual doesn't matter to me. I was curious because I guessed right on another forum based on posting style alone and I wanted to see if I was right again. The question HONESTLY wasn't meant as an attack or anything.

I'm very rarely serious. I'll admit, I don't like CG a great amount because of our disagreements about fansubs and a few other things, but I have no real grudge. I simply made posts jokingly winding him up in the past a few times to get revenge on him for annoying me in my threads - That's all.

...I felt like I needed to say that since Paul seems to think I'm bullying CG or something. I'm not sure if you've been PMing him but he seems rather concerned.

 

[Rui]

Just so people know, kids can be stupid bullies without reason too. I was personally called a lesbian at middle school for years. I to this day don't really know why, except that on my first day (I was a transfer student) I was sat next to another girl by the teacher who was called a lesbian by the vocal bullies too. Clearly it's infectious :roll:

She's married with kids now too incidentally. So kids make up stupid jibes even when there's no actual grounding for it, if they want to pick on someone else.

I know plenty of straight guys who have no problem with gay men too. Like my fiancé, whose heterosexuality I am convinced of. And many people of both genders who are ok with lesbians, both in jest and in practice. The ones who aren't are often pretty insecure, I personally find - because frankly what does the physical shape of a person's partner's genitalia have to do with anything else?

Any criticism about anal sex applies equally to straight people who do it. Please acknowledge that before berating gay men for it.

Any criticism about marriage being exclusively related to procreation applies to straight couples who can't/don't conceive too (millions of 'em - even in my ultra hardcore Catholic extended family on one side there is a batch who can't conceive yet they're staying together).

And any criticism based in Christianity only applies to people of that same denomination and can't be enforced on others without the culprit looking like a small minded bully. Just because society allegedly propagates opinions doesn't mean we have to take them on and propagate them as our own unless we fully believe in them independently.

R

 

[Rui]

I was curious because I guessed right on another forum based on posting style alone and I wanted to see if I was right again.

But then people think I'm a guy from my posting style we don't all conform to stereotypes.

(Hehe it's almost everywhere I post, I should pick a less androgynous username).

R

 

[CitizenGeek]

You're not born gay.

Yes, you are. I think I should know, being born gay and all. It's definitely genetic, and it definitely fits in with evolution and the natural world and all that, too.

Something in your life obviously influenced your choice to stick with your own gender sexually, rather than walking the plank to the land of the moist bean.

Grew up with no father? Beaten up by girls? Abusive mother?

All fesable reasons why you prefer to ride on the pogostick.

No, none of those are believable reasons at all. My father has been there my whole life (both of my parents have been married for more than 15 years) and I have, and have always had, a great relationship with him. Girls never beat me up, in fact I get on best with girls. My mother was most certainly not abusive. I've grown up in a loving family with very few problems (financial or otherwise). Everything about my life has been normal. And yet I'm gay. See? Not a choice. My oldest memory is liking boys instead of girls (not that I realised that was unusual back then or anything). Are you suggested I chose my sexual orientation when I was 5? Hah! This is the truth for most gay people, you'll find. You'll also find that many heterosexual men had no father in their lives as they grew up, had abusive mothers and were beaten up by girls.

As for the traditional idea's of ******** you mentioned, those are all subjectable to which century a couple lived in, how societal behaviour was regulated, and which laws governed a certain area, instead of simply understanding what I was getting at:

Yeah, that's all true. But, I don't see how that alters my point.

So you're refuting the fact that two men are somehow identical to a man and a woman?

Are you saying that marriages between men and women are all somehow identical? Of course not. No two marriages are "identical". Marriage is very different all over the world. If you're India, your marriage won't be very similiar to a marriage in France. If you're in Spain, then same-sex marriage is legal. In some countries, a man can have as many wives as he wants.

Yes, marriage between two men (and it is noteworthy that you're focusing entirely on gay men, and disregarding the existence of lesbian women. Obviously, you're not threatened by lesbian women ...) is different to marriage between a man and a woman, but heterosexual marriages vary massively, anyway.

How do you think people in this society would treat a gay couple who got married? Certainly not with respect. If they were very lucky they'd only get constant whispering behind their backs and people openly laughing at them, but if they were unlucky they would get bullied, humiliated and a few beatings. Our society simply will not accept a homosexual marriage as normal.

Eh, what century did you just come from? This is actually 2008, not 1918. The majority of people in developed, educated countries don't frown upon homosexuality.

Firstly, the child (if a straight boy) would be disgusted with them and want to escape because, frankly, a straight male does not want to see other males getting it on in front of him.

Yes, because a straight male child wouldn't mind seeing his straight parents "getting it on in front of him" ...

It's normal for a man and a woman to be together; that's the whole idea behind men needing women and women needing men to breed. I'm sure that ****** who cursed me, God, didn't create our species like he did if he wished for homosexuality - We would surely be able to reproduce without being split into sexes if that were the case. Marriage is based on this logic; a holy union of man and woman as intended by the creator... It wasn't created to celebrate homosexuality.

Well, do you believe in evolution? Because, if you do, then that God comment doesn't really work. If you don't believe in evolution, then -frankly- you're an idiot. So, I'll take it that you do believe in evolution.

Homosexuality is Mother Nature's population control. For example, there is an island inhabited by rabbits. These rabbits are eating and reproducing and the growing population means a depletion in the food available. If the rabbits continue to reproduce at the rate they are, they would exhaust their food and they would all die. Homosexual rabbits would mean less offspring, and so less pressure on the food supply. Thus, the rabbits can continue living and survival is one of the most base animal instincts. It's really as simple as that and, like I said, homosexuality has been documented in many, many animals. In a world as overpopulated as ours, homosexuality is to be expected.

 

[Kurogane]

Well, it's officially gotten ugly.

CG, I can't be assed posting anymore, as it;'s becoming an uphill challenge the more the night progresses, plus blurred vision and erratic movement are just a fraction of the signs of a good loading.

You know where I stand, so go argue with Aion or something.

 

[shira]

Yes, you are. I think I should know, being born gay and all. It's definitely genetic, and it definitely fits in with evolution and the natural world and all that, too.

If we're saying that being gay fits in with evoloution, then doesnt that mean all gay people will die because they refuse to breed? Seems to me like nature frowns on it :S But then again, maybe ive missed the point??

 

[CitizenGeek]

I would just like this chance to point this out: I have nothing against CG.

Him being straight, gay, bi or asexual doesn't matter to me. I was curious because I guessed right on another forum based on posting style alone and I wanted to see if I was right again. The question HONESTLY wasn't meant as an attack or anything.

Eh ... sorry if it seemed like I was offended by that question or anything, but I really wasn't.

...I felt like I needed to say that since Paul seems to think I'm bullying CG or something. I'm not sure if you've been PMing him but he seems rather concerned.

Trust me, I've never, ever felt like I was being bullied by you. I've certainly never, ever felt in any way at all threatened by you. And I haven't been PMing Paul about anything, so I've no idea where this has come from really. In fact, I think it's laughable to suggest that I would be in any way threatened by you, Aion :]

 

[CitizenGeek]

If we're saying that being gay fits in with evoloution, then doesnt that mean all gay people will die because they refuse to breed? Seems to me like nature frowns on it :S

Nature doesn't "frown" on anything. What a weird concept.

Homosexuality is like your hair colour. Even if both your parents have blond hair, you could end up with brown hair ;]

 

[Aion]

I was curious because I guessed right on another forum based on posting style alone and I wanted to see if I was right again.

But then people think I'm a guy from my posting style we don't all conform to stereotypes.

(Hehe it's almost everywhere I post, I should pick a less androgynous username).

R

Not even I'm always 100% correct.

Everyone is different, you're right. For example, I'd obviously have very little chance of guessing about a tomboy being a girl unless she revealed the truth.

In your case, your name sounding like 'Roy' and you having a female avatar (it's quite common for people to have an avatar of the sex they find attractive) made me assume you were male straight away. With you not using smilies like some of the annoying internet 'girls' tend to, I never would've guessed about you being female.

Eh, what century did you just come from? This is actually 2008, not 1918. The majority of people in developed, educated countries don't frown upon homosexuality.

CG, I'm not going to respond to your next post. You care far more about homosexuality than I do and, having already seen how you are in the past, this is only going to end in stupidity. You most likely created this thread for attention and for an argument, so I don't wish to take it beyond this.

Education has nothing to do with how people feel about homosexuality. I'm not a stupid person, yet I feel naturally repulsed by the thought of...I don't know, males I know kissing. Homosexuality quite naturally disgusts someone who's straight as an arrow as much as an hetrosexual male is turned on by an attractive member of the opposite sex.

Yes, because a straight male child wouldn't mind seeing his straight parents "getting it on in front of him" ...

Your feelings are blinding you from seeing how a straight male would feel seeing his two male 'parents' kissing and touching each other sexually in front of him. From my straight perspective, I can tell you with 100% honesty that seeing that would disturb me A LOT more than seeing my parents doing something sexual.

I wouldn't leave my home over seeing my parents kissing. I would, however, run out the door pretty fast if I had two homosexual male 'parents' and I viewed them doing something sexual. I think you'll find any other straight male would also feel disgusted by it.

Just admit it; it's better for children to be raised by a man and a woman. No problems created by the sexuality of the parents can be created if the parents are male and female.

If you don't believe in evolution, then -- frankly -- you're an idiot.

Charming.

I don't concern myself with thinking about if we evolved from monkeys or if a superior lifeform created what we think of as life for its own amusement. Whichever is true, it won't impact on my life.

I believe in nothing of substance. I do, however, prefer to think of the creation of life in simple terms, and the most simple way of thinking is that life was created by something; something we consider to be a God. It's also far easier for me to blame a God than it is for to blame a chain of evolution.

I mentioned God because getting married in a Church is a religious event where a priest marries a man and a woman. The logic behind this was originally that a man and a woman should spend their lives together, a man and woman being together being normal. I don't care if God does or does not exist, that's not the point - The point is why marriage was created in the first place.

About homosexuality being for the good of all life, you're talking out of your **** (no joke intended). Everyone and everything is different, from taste to sexuality, and that's no different for animals. Animals wanting to shag everything and some animals even being attracted to only their own sex doesn't mean homosexuality is normal, existing to stop the planet becoming overpopulated - That's a wild assumption by you, someone desperate to make homosexuality normal when it isn't.

 

[Rui]

The thing I find funny is that women on the whole (there are exceptions) adore homosexual men, and men can't stand them, yet surely it should logically be the other way around. After all, if there are a bunch of guys and one girl, the homosexuals won't be threats as rivals so the straight guys have more chance to get the girl. Whereas in terms of breeding alone, to a woman they're more like other women. And we treat other women terribly for the most part in our competitiveness.

I think this will be more of an issue in future generations since [insane] parents are using modern technology to select boys over girls when pregnant in many countries. We'll end up with an even more skewed gender ratio in time on this planet. It is my opinion that everyone deserves someone to love in their life irrespective of whether they come with XX or XY chromosomes so if a portion of those boys grow up with the desire to go seeking out one another instead of girls, great - it's miserable growing old and dying alone if you don't want to.

Homosexuality isn't a disease or inherited, so they won't die out by being forced by peer pressure to have unfulfilling and frustrating heterosexual relationships. Anyone could have a gay child, hence all the problems people encounter growing up and challenging their parents preconceptions.

I think there's a lot more problems a kid could face growing up from abuse or neglect than having two parents who both have breasts etc.

Taking gods and archaic laws out of the picture, are civil unions as bad as marriages for some of the people in this thread, when gay people are involved? I'm having a heterosexual civil wedding, am I as bad? All it's doing is giving the gay couple the same (more or less) legal rights as a "normal" couple and letting them and their community celebrate their relationship. It doesn't get in anyone else's way.

R

 

[CitizenGeek]

CG, I'm not going to respond to your next post.

Why did you start your reply with this when you went out to counter pretty much everything I said? :s

You most likely created this thread for attention and for an argument, so I don't wish to take it beyond this.

No, if I wanted attention I would have made 6 or 7 "OMG, LOOK AT ME!! (and the stuff I bought ...) threads" and used sexually crude and coarse language in most of my posts. Hmm, doesn't that sound familiar?

Education has nothing to do with how people feel about homosexuality. I'm not a stupid person, yet I feel naturally repulsed by the thought of...I don't know, males I know kissing.

Yes, it does; Or do you just think it's a 'coincidence' that countries that have robust educational systems are more accepting of homosexuality than countries that do not? It's also true that wealthy countries are more accepting, because when you're not angry about being poor, you don't want to take it out on the most vulnerable people ;]

Homosexuality quite naturally disgusts someone who's straight as an arrow as much as an hetrosexual male is turned on by an attractive member of the opposite sex.

There's definitely some kind of mental issue for anyone who is "disgusted" by two guys kissing. Also, most girls who are "straight as an arrow" don't have a problem with two guys kissing.

Your feelings are blinding you from seeing how a straight male would feel seeing his two male 'parents' kissing and touching each other sexually in front of him.

Your point is absurd; most responsible parents don't kiss and touch each other around their children, anyway! But that's not the point, if a child is raised in an environment where it's okay to be gay, and the subject is not taboo, then they won't end up like you, fearing something totally harmless.

I think you'll find any other straight male would also feel disgusted by it.

No, you're wrong here, too! Just look at this thread, the majority of the straight guys here have said that homosexuality really doesn't bother them, and the poll shows that the grand majority support same sex marriage.

Just admit it; it's better for children to be raised by a man and a woman.

Sure, maybe! But, I do know that the American Psychological Association recently released a statement saying "This seven-member team of psychologists with a combination of both scientific expertise in family and couple relations ... summarized the research ... that same-sex couples are remarkably similar to heterosexual couples, and that parenting effectiveness and the adjustment, development and psychological well-being of children is unrelated to parental sexual orientation."[source]

Hmm, what should I believe .. Aion's clearly prejudiced lacklustre assumption, or research from an important, psychological research institution that has been properly studying this issue for years? I think I'll go with the latter! :]

I mentioned God because getting married in a Church is a religious event where a priest marries a man and a woman

Some Churches allow gay marriage, though, how does that fit into your equation?

The logic behind this was originally that a man and a woman should spend their lives together, a man and woman being together being normal.

Do you realise how childish this sounds?

Everyone and everything is different, from taste to sexuality, and that's no different for animals. Animals wanting to shag everything and some animals even being attracted to only their own sex doesn't mean homosexuality is normal, existing to stop the planet becoming overpopulated

It's funny because you think you've made some kind of point there, when you really haven't. You haven't told me why the theory of homosexuality as a population control is wrong. Your statement about "animals have different taste" doesn't really make any sense. If homosexuality is present in well over 1500 animals and insects, as well as humans, then how is that not "natural"? You're making statements and not backing them up with any kind of logic (not that I expected better from a person blinded by an anti-gay bias ....)

That's a wild assumption by you, someone desperate to make homosexuality normal when it isn't.

Desperate? You're the only one that seems desperate; you haven't used anything concrete to back up your outdated, mis-informed views on homosexuality, you've admitted that you find the thoughts of two men merely sharing a kiss "repulsive", you've made wild, uninformed assumptions. I, however, have repeated well-thought-out theories from very intelligent people and used proof from a top psychological institution. Why can't you show me any research that shows homosexuality to be unnatural or that gays make bad parents?

The thing I find funny is that women on the whole (there are exceptions) adore homosexual men, and men can't stand them, yet surely it should logically be the other way around. After all, if there are a bunch of guys and one girl, the homosexuals won't be threats as rivals so the straight guys have more chance to get the girl. Whereas in terms of breeding alone, to a woman they're more like other women. And we treat other women terribly for the most part in our competitiveness.

Well, gay men aren't like other women, which is why, I think, straight women love gay men so much. They're not a threat, because the vast majority of guys are straight and women aren't going to 'get' gay guys anyway. I think women like gay men so much because it's like having a male friend that doesn't want anything from you besides friendship.

Taking gods and archaic laws out of the picture, are civil unions as bad as marriages for some of the people in this thread, when gay people are involved? I'm having a heterosexual civil wedding, am I as bad? All it's doing is giving the gay couple the same (more or less) legal rights as a "normal" couple and letting them and their community celebrate their relationship. It doesn't get in anyone else's way.

I think it's the fact that the government has made the distinction between straights and gays. Straights get "marriages", gays can only get "civil unions". Separate is not equal, we learned this from mid-1900s America. Countries like Spain and Belgium and Holland have gay "marriages", I don't see why the UK and Ireland should have anything less ....