Do you support gay marriage?

[CitizenGeek]

How can you be so certain that every person who is gay was actually born gay?

I'm not saying that every person that would identify as gay was born gay, but it's probably true for the majority of gay people.

So these people were unaware that they were gay and were having fun with the opposite sex but then all of a sudden something clicks and they are gay?? Doesn't that just boil down to personal preference then? Like as a child I didn't like to eat fish but now I love it, is that because a little switch decided to flick to "Like fish"? Did nature always intend for me to like fish?

Maybe they were bisexual, and heterosexuality dominated the first part of their lives, then homosexuality dominated the second part or vice versa. Maybe something triggered their innate homosexuality.

Are you seriously suggesting that they chose to be gay? They made a family, had children, and lived that life for years and years and then just decided to be gay? :s

 

[Kurogane]

Tell me, if these people were always gay like you claim-- how could they have put up a marriage (which needs a healthy sexual relationshop to survive), and raise kids?

Well, just talk to (or listen to, or read something by) one of these such people. They'll tell you that they got married to women because of the overwhelming pressure to conform in the past. It's still there, indeed, but not anywhere near as overwhelming as before. Marriage does need a healthy sexual relationship to survive; this is why none of the marriages involving gay men or women survived

I'm not talking younger people here, but there are men who have been married DECADES, and then they suddenly decide that they like Hershey bars better than Strawberry fondu.

How could they have spent so long in a seemingly happy marriage without having sex for that long? - Doesn't happen, especially if offpspring were in the picture.
Like Lupus just said, it has to boil down to personal preference, rather than they're forced to one path from birth.

I'm digging up an old bone here, but like I said earlier; certain stressful or traumatic events have influenced a childs gender in the past, especially if their relationship with the leading female in their life (mother, spouse) was particularly horrible or abusive.

 

[Zen 2nd]

Are you seriously suggesting that they chose to be gay? They made a family, had children, and lived that life for years and years and then just decided to be gay? :s

I never mentioned family life.

What I believe is that we are intelligent human beings and we have the power to change ourselves and not let nature decide who we are. Thus naturally it should be obviously a man and a woman who gets married and not a gay couple.

 

[CitizenGeek]

What I believe is that we are intelligent human beings and we have the power to change ourselves and not let nature decide who we are. Thus naturally it should be obviously a man and a woman who gets married and not a gay couple.

Basically, you think gay and lesbian people should be forced to conform, and just be straight even though that's not who they are? And you used the fact that gay people could force themselves to be with the opposite sex as opposed to being with someone of the same sex that actually love, as reasoning for denying marriage to gay couples? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

I'm not talking younger people here, but there are men who have been married DECADES, and then they suddenly decide that they like Hershey bars better than Strawberry fondu.

How could they have spent so long in a seemingly happy marriage without having sex for that long? - Doesn't happen, especially if offpspring were in the picture.
Like Lupus just said, it has to boil down to personal preference, rather than they're forced to one path from birth.

Okay, first of all, you need to understand that it is possible to maintain a marriage without regular sex. In fact it happens, and used to happen in the past, all the time. If a gay person is pretending to be straight, then of course they are going to have straight sex; otherwise there'd be no point in pretending to be straight in the first place. I don't get this "personal preference" thing (also, Lupus Inu never said anything like that, in fact he hasn't posted in this thread since the first page :s). Do you mean to say that the people in these marriages just decide to be gay, and risk losing the family they'd built up over decades .. all because they merely "prefer" to have sex with the same gender. That's really quite a ridiculous notion, even for someone as desperate as you to assert that homosexuality is not a legitimate sexuality at all.

I'm digging up an old bone here, but like I said earlier; certain stressful or traumatic events have influenced a childs gender in the past, especially if their relationship with the leading female in their life (mother, spouse) was particularly horrible or abusive.

I didn't understand most of this (how can you "influence" someone's gender?) but I believe you're using that tired "trauma induces homosexuality" nonsense again. -Sigh-. If that's actually correct (and it isn't), it leaves out all the gay people who didn't have absusive mothers (which is most likely the overwhelming majority). What about the gays like me, who haven't had anything traumatic happen in their lives, and are still gay? How do we figure into your equation?

Homosexuality has been around since heterosexuality has. From the start, when men were having sex with women, a small percentage were having sex with other men. Homosexuality exists in insects and animals; documented in well over 1,500 different species, actually. Most of the ancient cultures (that pre-date the Abrahamic religions) accepted homosexuality. It's only once the Bible was written by homophobic, sexist men that it all turned ugly. Homosexuality isn't a choice, it isn't unnatural; why do so many people have a problem with accepting that?

 

[Chaz]

I'm digging up an old bone here, but like I said earlier; certain stressful or traumatic events have influenced a childs gender in the past, especially if their relationship with the leading female in their life (mother, spouse) was particularly horrible or abusive.

I didn't understand most of this (how can you "influence" someone's gender?) but I believe you're using that "trauma induces homosexuality" nonsense againa. Sigh. If that's actually correct (and it isn't), it leaves out all the gay people who didn't have absusive mothers (which is most likely the overwhelming majority). What about the gays like me, who haven't had anything traumatic happen in their lives, and are still gay.

Homosexuality has been around since heterosexuality has. From the start, when men were having sex with women, a small percentage were having sex with other men. Homosexuality exists in insects and animals; documented in well over 1,500 different species, actually. Most of the ancient cultures (that pre-date the Abrahamic religions) accepted homosexuality. It's only once the Bible was written by homophobic, sexist men that it all turned ugly. Homosexuality isn't a choice, it isn't unnatural; why do so many people have a problem with accepting that?

Actually, I believe it's a misquote. I think what Kurogane's trying to say if the monther was abbusive, the child could be traumatised and prefer male companionship rather than female. Probably probed mentally that the female side of humanity cant be fully trusted.
Edit: Ack nevermind... You've answered it correctly anyways... Ignore me. DX

 

[Zen 2nd]

Homosexuality has been around since heterosexuality has. From the start, when men were having sex with women, a small percentage were having sex with other men. Homosexuality exists in insects and animals; documented in well over 1,500 different species, actually. Most of the ancient cultures (that pre-date the Abrahamic religions) accepted homosexuality. It's only once the Bible was written by homophobic, sexist men that it all turned ugly. Homosexuality isn't a choice, it isn't unnatural; why do so many people have a problem with accepting that?

What about murders? Maybe its just in their nature to kill people? They don't have a choice so they should be freely allowed to kill people since they have no choice.

Basically, you think gay and lesbian people should be forced to conform, and just be straight even though that's not who they are? And you used the fact that gay people could force themselves to be with the opposite sex as opposed to being with someone of the same sex that actually love, as reasoning for denying marriage to gay couples? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

If they have no choice in deciding to be gay then equally we can just force them to be straight giving them no choice in the matter.

That's of course if they had no choice in the beginning, but, everyone has the choice to decide for themselves whether they are gay or not.

Quoting a website about homosexuality

"What is clear is that people's behaviour is influenced by their family environment, their experiences and their sense of themselves."

People being born gay is nonsense. They can of course have gay tendencies when they are young but that is not because nature has swooped in and deemed this child to be gay.

 

[Shuhan]

What I believe is that we are intelligent human beings and we have the power to change ourselves and not let nature decide who we are. Thus naturally it should be obviously a man and a woman who gets married and not a gay couple.

:?

You say gay people can change themselves and be straight and not let nature decide who they are. BTW

Your straight, i want you to change yourself and be gay can you do it?......

You can't can you! that's the same for gay people!

People being born gay is nonsense. They canhave gay tendencies when they are young but that is not because nature has swooped in and deemed this child to be gay.

People being born gay is nonsense.

Some People are born Gay. BEING GAY IS NOT A CHOICE.

See Krissie Speaks on Gay Marriage, She is AWESOME! <3

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=60nRjKSlqro

 

[CitizenGeek]

^ That's a good video, Shuhan! :]

What about murders? Maybe its just in their nature to kill people? They don't have a choice so they should be freely allowed to kill people since they have no choice.

Eh, murder and sexuality are two totally different things. If you are psychopathic, and have murderous tendancies, then you've got a mental problem. Being gay, however, is not a mental illness (the World Health Organisation even says so!). I'm not really going to explain to you all the differences between murderers and homosexuals ... you can work those out for yourself, right?

If they have no choice in deciding to be gay then equally we can just force them to be straight giving them no choice in the matter.

That's of course if they had no choice in the beginning, but, everyone has the choice to decide for themselves whether they are gay or not.

Quoting a website about homosexuality

"What is clear is that people's behaviour is influenced by their family environment, their experiences and their sense of themselves."

People being born gay is nonsense. They can of course have gay tendencies when they are young but that is not because nature has swooped in and deemed this child to be gay.

Oookay, Zen 2nd, you've lost me. You had to find a website to give you that quote; I would have thought it blindingly obvious that your experiences growing up determine what kind of person you are. It doesn't really influence sexuality ..... Wait a second? Why am I continuing to talk with you on this issue? You just said that even if being gay isn't a choice, gay people should be forced to be straight. I'm not going to waste my time on someone who holds such an idiotic opinion, sorry ;]

 

[chaos]

The only time I can see myself changing my view on this is if we're talking about REALLY hot lesbians getting married.

As long as they allow poligamy =P

I say no, not because i'm homophobic or something (infact, im bi) but I always see marriage as a christian thing and, christians dont like homosexuals. But, I cant honestly say I feel strongly abut the matter.

Japanese are not Christians and they marry as well... Loads of Indian friends of mine Marry as well (can't remember their religion, but not the catholic / christian indians, the other ones...)

As far as I know, it is somehow a religious thing, but not a exclusive to christian thing.

Two homosexuals getting married in this world would only create problems; problems for themselves and for any children they adopted.
.... <trimmed>
It's normal for a man and a woman to be together; that's the whole idea behind men needing women and women needing men to breed. I'm sure that ****** who cursed me, God, didn't create our species like he did if he wished for homosexuality - We would surely be able to reproduce without being split into sexes if that were the case. Marriage is based on this logic; a holy union of man and woman as intended by the creator... It wasn't created to celebrate homosexuality.

No one can deny any of that really can they...

Yes, I think I can deny that. Not so long ago would it be dificult for a widow to raise a kid by herself. Society would discriminate her. Then, society moved to bully divorced mothers / single mothers, etc... and so on.
Now it's difficult to see a kid being bullied because his / her mother never got married. So it's just a matter of time. It would surely be like hell in the first years, but soon enough things would adjust and everyone will find it normal. (I hope)

Now seriously the only thing I think needs to be perfectly clear:
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life ... 994783.ece

 

[chaos]

I know plenty of straight guys who have no problem with gay men too. Like my fiancé, whose heterosexuality I am convinced of.

Happy for you ^_^

 

[chaos]

(Hehe it's almost everywhere I post, I should pick a less androgynous username).

In Brazil, Rui is a male's name. Italian Simone is also male and Darcy is both male and female... names are confusing =D

I've kept thinking an online friend of mine was male for almost 2 years, before she sent me some pics ... her name reminded me of Disney's Havita character - that's why I thought she as a dude.... Now I know better and what a girl she is ... sigh

 

[rick]

CG, you keep saying people are born gay, but is there actually scientific evidence to suggest this? I just don't understand how people can possibly be born with an attraction to the opposite sex when evolution has created us so that one male and one female is needed to create.

Evolution suggests homosexuality is incorrect , but as a society we've grown to accept.

 

[Zen 2nd]

:?

You say gay people can change themselves and be straight and not let nature decide who they are. BTW

Your straight, i want you to change yourself and be gay can you do it?......

You can't can you! that's the same for gay people!

I can't? Who says that? I could be gay if I wanted to be, I choose not to be.

CK your belittling of people in discussions is getting boring. Even your reply to that comment will prove it.

I say people have a choice in if they want to be gay or not. Give me hard evidence that proves this is not the case.

 

[MaxonTreik]

Wow. I think I've agreed with almost everything CitizenGeek has said.

CG, you keep saying people are born gay, but is there actually scientific evidence to suggest this? I just don't understand how people can possibly be born with an attraction to the opposite sex when evolution has created us so that one male and one female is needed to create.

Evolution suggests homosexuality is incorrect , but as a society we've grown to accept.

I think you need to look back at his points on evolution.

I think you'll find any other straight male would also feel disgusted by it.

No, you're wrong here, too! Just look at this thread, the majority of the straight guys here have said that homosexuality really doesn't bother them, and the poll shows that the grand majority support same sex marriage.

While I don't really give a damn whether two men get married, I can't help but feel that two men having, dare I say, intercourse to be extremely disturbing.

I would have preferred an "I don't care" poll option (or something to that extent), to be honest. In actuality I neither support it, but nor do I condemn it - neutral if you will.

Well, to me, guy-on-guy action is disturbing to imagine for myself. I believe you, me and a few others have same opinions on that matter. I have no problem with you not caring about them.

I think what Ryuzaki means is it's nice for the gay society to have their rightes etc. But Ryuzaki and a majority of straight males would find imagining the sex crindge worthy, due to hetrosexuals only wanting to have intercorse with females.
Difference between Ryu and me is that I support the rights needed. Ryu wouldn't but wont spit on it either.

Hope I've cleared it all up. ^_^

My view is pretty much the same as Ryu's. Homosexuality makes me uncomfortable and I wouldn't support homosexual marriage, but I'm not going to be against it either.

I say people have a choice in if they want to be gay or not. Give me hard evidence that proves this is not the case.

You ask for proof, but you have yet to provide solid evidence behind your own claim.

 

[CitizenGeek]

CG, you keep saying people are born gay, but is there actually scientific evidence to suggest this? I just don't understand how people can possibly be born with an attraction to the opposite sex when evolution has created us so that one male and one female is needed to create.

Sure, reproduction does require one male and one female, and that's why the majority of people are heterosexual, so our species can survive. There's a reason homosexuality only happens in a minority of people ;] Homosexuality simply must fit in with evolution in some way; otherwise it wouldn't exist in so many animals. So, whether the theory that homosexuality is a population control, or any of the other theories, I'm sure it fits in somewhere.

Yes, there is scientific evidence to suggest this. "Most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors ... There is also considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person's sexuality". That quote is from the American Psychologists Association FAQ on sexual orientation.

Evolution suggests homosexuality is incorrect , but as a society we've grown to accept.

Only if you think of evolution as being something extraordinarily simple, which it very clearly is not.

I can't? Who says that? I could be gay if I wanted to be, I choose not to be.

I don't think you really understand what being gay is. It isn't just having sex with the same gender; it's falling in love with someone from the same gender. Could you ever see yourself falling in love with someone of the same sex? Well, if you can, then you're bisexual or something, and you really have chosen to be straight, instead of being gay. Unfortunately, that's not a choice that most of us have (seeing that most of us are not bisexual).

I say people have a choice in if they want to be gay or not. Give me hard evidence that proves this is not the case.

I'll just bring up the American Psychological Association again. You know, they're that organization that have been studying sexuality for decades?

From their FAQ on sexual orientation ...

Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?

No.

Doesn't get much clearer than that! They go on to say that "human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed." Check it out for yourself, here.

Keep in mind that the APA is not in any way affiliated with any gay rights organisation. I'm sure there's tonnes and tonnes of proofs available from gay groups about sexual orientation, but I wouldn't expect you to believe them, just as any materials from most Christian groups would probably be tainted by bias, too. With the APA, though, there can be no claims of bias :]

But -- let me guess -- you still don't buy it? :s

Zen 2nd, like Maxon has just said, you've provided nothing that even resembles proof to back up your claim.

Homosexuality makes me uncomfortable and I wouldn't support homosexual marriage, but I'm not going to be against it either.

Ah, well it's unfortunate that you wouldn't support gay rights - I think the world needs more straight allies with this particular battle

 

[MaxonTreik]

I personally have nothing against homosexuality. It's just my religion and upbringing that stop me from supporting it. I'm sure I'd be in a different mindset otherwise. Really, I think it would be good for homosexuals to get married.

 

[fabio de lunatico]

I'm astonished at some of the views expressed in this thread. Sexual orientation is a choice? Holy ****.

Though there is no conclusive evidence, homosexuality is most likely a combination of environmental and genetic factors. It most certainly is not a lifestyle choice. I agree with CG's assertion that any such suggestion is nothing more than thinly-veiled homophobia.

I absolutely believe that gay couples should be afforded equal rights.

 

[Rui]

The comments on advocating forcing homosexuals to pretend to be straight are downright scary. How are they hurting anyone else by being true to themselves? Should we stop people liking football because we don't like it too? Perhaps stop females ever having jobs or lives too as in terms of *evolution* we're meant to have babies as much as possible from puberty to menopause. And stop grown ups watching cartoons as it's not dignified or accepted by the average person. That sure sounds like a horrible world to live in to me.

Nobody knows how sexual preference is decided, so I think that flame war should be killed off now. All of the ignorant comments about it stemming from abusive females in the man's life are absurd though. Firstly, gay men (as in this example) tend to get along very well with women in general - CG says he has lots of female friends. If anything it would be more likely to be from a positive (nonsexual) male influence, but there's no reason to say it is and no evidence of trends. And frankly at the early ages people figure out they're "wired differently" that's debatable too. Bear in mind a lot of people who don't acknowledge their preferences early on are often brought up the way Maxon describes he was (nothing personal Maxon, you just said it handily) - "It's just my religion and upbringing that stop me from supporting it. I'm sure I'd be in a different mindset otherwise.". Untangling these things and going against the flow is hard to accept and harder to do, some people take a while.

Leading into the next point, a gay man can make himself have straight sex if needed and physically procreate without it being his actual preference. Straight men can have anal sex too. Straight men incidentally often do, both with other straight guys in certain circumstances or with female partners (avoids fear of pregnancy and is supposedly tighter/more pleasurable for many men).

I don't think a perfectly straight guy can be forced to be gay. They could easily enough have anal sex etc to prove a point or act stereotypically camp, but I don't think they could rewrite their entire psyche to *be* gay as easily as people seem to think. Most of them seem to have enough problems accepting gay people sharing the planet with them, let alone becoming one :roll:

R

 

[Zen 2nd]

Fine.

Gay people can get married.

I still stand by the my opinion that you can't be born gay.

 

[Lupus]

Sexual orientation is a choice? Holy ****.

Only for females!