I have some sympathy for Miyazaki, as he clearly never wanted to be the figurehead he's become, but I feel a bit indifferent about his return at this stage. Nothing he's done since Princess Mononoke has really excited me the way his early films did.
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ConanThe3rd
Railgun
He's looking for a film to die on ala Dream Factory.
The man really needs to knock it off.
The man really needs to knock it off.
Yami
Thousand Master
I'm not sure it's a 'rumour', I seem to recall Oshii or Hosoda saying it. But Ghibli is nothing without him, and while that might be his own fault I'm not convinced it needs to be either. Plenty of directors have their own production companies and there's no necessity for it to continue as a studio afterwards.
He's hardly the oldest director around, he could potentially have another decade or two. But I see that my view that Miyazaki might be second only to Jean-Luc Godard as greatest living director isn't universally shared around these parts
Buzz201
Mad Scientist
I'm not sure it's a 'rumour', I seem to recall Oshii or Hosoda saying it. But Ghibli is nothing without him, and while that might be his own fault I'm not convinced it needs to be either. Plenty of directors have their own production companies and there's no necessity for it to continue as a studio afterwards.
He's hardly the oldest director around, he could potentially have another decade or two. But I see that my view that Miyazaki might be second only to Jean-Luc Godard as greatest living director isn't universally shared around these parts
I think it would be a shame to see Ghibli fail to exist without him.
His age has nothing to do with my suggestion he needs to be told to behave himself. I feel like a lot of auteurs suffer from similar problems -- Nobody has the guts to tell them their films are far too long and need to be cut, and I just feel the two films of his I saw (Howl's and The Wind Rises) would benefit from somebody telling him things he doesn't want to hear. Same with Tarantino, Scorsese, Peter Jackson, Michael Bay and others. All (save Bay) make perfectly fine films, but how much better would The Wolf of Wall Street or Django Unchained be with an hour taken off their running times...
I'd personally go Spielberg or, perhaps contentiously, David Fincher, I'd bring up Francis Ford Coppola, Guillermo del Toro and maybe Ridley Scott if I was feeling generous too, but whatever...
IncendiaryLemon
Captain Karen
Eh, I love Wolf of Wallstreet from beginning to end. Django, though, I'm with you.
sniper_samurai
Mad Scientist
This is basically why I stopped watching Walking Dead, a good seires hampered by its 16 episode season run.
Would be much better if they ran it over 10 episodes instead of airing 5-6 50 min episodes that only progress the story in the last 30 seconds of the episode.
Peachy
Bumpkin
He's hardly the oldest director around, he could potentially have another decade or two. But I see that my view that Miyazaki might be second only to Jean-Luc Godard as greatest living director isn't universally shared around these parts
That's not how you spell Dario Argento
Yami
Thousand Master
It's a hard balance to have - obviously before the rise of the 'auteur' in the 70s, producers did generally have final say and almost 75 years later we're still raking through cupboards in South America trying to find the original version of Orson Welles' The Magnificent Ambersons. But I'd argue that it should be for the critics and the audience to give feedback to the director and for him to incorporate that into his next project - I too found The Wolf of Wall Street overlong (though there is an argument that it was being meta in criticising the excess of Belfort) but it became Scorsese's highest grossing film and was nominated for a bunch of Oscars and got pretty great reviews if I remember rightly.
To defend Miyazaki, I would argue that he hasn't made a single bad film by any measure. I don't like Ponyo, but I think it does a good job for its target audience and it's hard to make every film appeal to all age groups - but, by jove, he's almost managed it. Partially this is down to production rate - he hasn't made as many films as most 'great' live action film directors so has had fewer opportunities to screw up. You could probably say similar about Tarkovsky and Kubrick (though the latter did make 2 or 3 very weak films). He's also got a consistent vision - you can see the same themes that were in his very earliest works still present in the most recent. But it isn't a static vision - it's developed and evolved over time. I certainly wouldn't say that he's prone to overindulgence either - My Neighbour Totoro is less than 90 minutes, Porco Rosso is around the 90 minute mark as well. The Wind Rises had its problems but I didn't think length was one of them.
I'd encourage you to see a couple more of his films before writing him off.
To defend Miyazaki, I would argue that he hasn't made a single bad film by any measure. I don't like Ponyo, but I think it does a good job for its target audience and it's hard to make every film appeal to all age groups - but, by jove, he's almost managed it. Partially this is down to production rate - he hasn't made as many films as most 'great' live action film directors so has had fewer opportunities to screw up. You could probably say similar about Tarkovsky and Kubrick (though the latter did make 2 or 3 very weak films). He's also got a consistent vision - you can see the same themes that were in his very earliest works still present in the most recent. But it isn't a static vision - it's developed and evolved over time. I certainly wouldn't say that he's prone to overindulgence either - My Neighbour Totoro is less than 90 minutes, Porco Rosso is around the 90 minute mark as well. The Wind Rises had its problems but I didn't think length was one of them.
I'd encourage you to see a couple more of his films before writing him off.
Buzz201
Mad Scientist
I had other issues with Howl's Moving Castle (namely that it bashed me over the head with pacifism for like 90 minutes of it's runtime, it wasn't even a nuanced discussion, just 90 minutes of straight "War is bad 'mmkay?", hard to see that as anything other than self-indulgence) and The Wind Rises is unfocussed and doesn't really conclude in any way.
Lutga
Mad Scientist
Yeah, the pacifist angle in Howl's Moving Castle is probably my biggest problem with it - but ironically it's probably my favourite Ghibli movie outside of the obvious trio of Spirited Away, Totoro and Princess Mononoke. I think the thing I like about Howl's Moving Castle is its always seemed to my eyes the most 'anime' of Ghibli's movies, with its 'bishi' titular character and cut and dried love story right at its centre, as well as a more clear sense of forward momentum / conflict.
Zin5ki
Railgun
For someone with such a successful career, it is rather disappointing that his vision never involved presenting children with a more balanced account of the world beyond what his optimism allowed. It is fine to make a few reassuring tales of personal triumph and inner strength, but there's more to the world than that! Being the standard-bearer of anime, it would not have gone amiss to reveal something less rosy about humanity to his younger viewers, beyond overcooked gestures about war and the environment. Good people can have their demons! Things sometimes don't go our way! Surely the means existed for him to express matters like this.
Yami
Thousand Master
FYI for anyone reading I'm not going to spoiler out anything that happens in Howl's Moving Castle
It's not my favourite of his works, but (unsurprisingly
) I would give Howl's Moving Castle a lot more credit. I remain unconvinced by the happy ending, which is a simplistic allegory (love solves war!) but I think the 'war is bad' message is self-critical; as Andrew Osmond put it in Sight & Sound:While the war of terror is the backdrop, Howl's war on war (which is effectively a war on terror in and of itself) is similarly self-defeating. Ultimately, it isn't Howl's pacifism that ends the war.
Unfortunately, I don't have much time to go into more depth to this or Zin5ki's point which is an interesting one. I'm enjoying this discussion though, and I hope to continue it tomorrow (perhaps a thread split?)
Smeelia
Thousand Master
Do you mean films that are basically wholly depressing or ones that just touch on negative possibilities? I'd say the latter does apply to a fair few of the films that Miyazaki directed. Several of the films involve the need for the characters to grow and sometimes make sacrifices, which means the characters often at least start flawed and that their world isn't the same by the end of the film.
Kiki's Delivery Service, for example, includes a scene where Kiki encounters another girl who isn't entirely pleasant to her. Kiki gets excited for what she expects will be something nice but the other girl is simply not interested. The other girl isn't punished for her behaviour, it's just another life lesson that Kiki learns. There's also the later issue of Kiki potentially losing touch with a friend and her general struggles with trying to run a business. It's maybe not the most in-depth or grim portrayal, and Kiki does get a good deal of support from others, but it does at least touch on more "real" issues.
In Spirited Away, Chihiro's path isn't exactly an easy one either. She's really only able to survive by being mature and rational, she's unable to use the fact that she's a child to her advantage and instead has to rely on herself.
In fairness, these sorts of things aren't necessarily explicit in the films, so it's possible that children wouldn't necessarily pick up on those kinds of details/ideas. Still, I think it's selling the films a little short to suggest they're only a combination of optimism and blatant messages about war and the environment.
On the point about Miyazaki and Ghibli, my favourite Ghibli films are Only Yesterday and Whisper of the Heart. I guess Miyazaki was involved in both (perhaps moreso with Whisper of the Heart) but I don't tend to think of Ghibli as being just about Miyazaki films.
I think it might be interesting if Ghibli was to re-organise and create something new, maybe start a new wave of films with some newer talent. I wonder if they'd consider trying to do something along the lines of what Wings of Honneamise/Royal Space Force did and have a bunch of relatively new talent work on a film that's willing to take a chance on being different.
Buzz201
Mad Scientist
I'm not sure The Wind Rises is a particularly happy/optimistic film. The entire film is about war corrupting the lead character's pure intentions, and turning his peaceful dreams of flying into dark dreams of death and destruction. "The wind rises… We must try to live!" perhaps here referring to the character's attempt to adapt his dreams and ideals to those of the world and place in time which he occupies, and the ability of the world to crush the spirits of those who live in it. Despite my complaints towards Howl's Moving Castle, I think dismissing The Wind Rises as just about war is misguided.
ConanThe3rd
Railgun
The Big Man needs to go before that can ever happen. They tried it with Hosuda and Howels and that went so up the balls that Toei got one of their best One Piece movies out of the tale as told in allegory.
serpantino
Thousand Master
Little kids don't really care about that kind of thing though & he primarily makes kids films. It's like how star wars fans complain about major plot holes and lack of advanced lore when they've always just been kids films.
I think the ecowarrior countryside love is just Miayazaki's thing and those angles are very relevant to the Japanese people. I'm sure there's far more options in Japan from other companies than those that trickle over here.
Even in the UK though there are some out there like Journey to Agartha & Wolf Children.
Not directly accusing you but has Miyazaki become one of those guys that's so popular and well known that it's trendy to hate him? If not for Miyazaki I doubt anime in the UK would be half as popular.
Buzz201
Mad Scientist
The "you're just being a hipster" argument doesn't really ever work.
It doesn't really address the complaint and is really just a subtle attempt to undermine the person making them. But if we're being completely honest, Miyazaki isn't really big enough to be at that point.
serpantino
Thousand Master
as I said I wasn't accusing the op as his opinion is perfectly valid. It was more just a general question related to it. Ghibli certainly seems to be a perfect setup for anime snobbery as it's better known and more accessible than most.
Yami
Thousand Master
I disagree that his recurrent themes on war and the environment are 'overcooked' (or indeed, simplistic, as Buzz alluded to), but they are closely related and it's why I think that suggesting Miyazaki needs to 'reveal something less rosy about humanity' is quite bizarre when through his entire filmography he consistently criticises human nature and its anthropocentrism. If you're speaking of his protagonists, it is true that they are usually heroic, but they do undergo character development throughout the film that gets them to that point. I wouldn't say that Jiro in The Wind Rises is depicted in an entirely positive light - he becomes obsessed with his work at the expense of his sick wife, he knowingly creates weapons of destruction purely for the sake of its art. Porco Rosso is another example of a protagonist that has his character flaws. The other protagonists in Miyazaki's work tend to be young, and fit into the classical idea of youth = purity that is corrupted by age but I don't think this is to be criticised and, as I said, his characters do have to mature and work to overcome whatever adversaries they face.
To go back to the themes of war and the environment, I think that Miyazaki's depiction of them is more complex than some give him credit for. Take the aforementioned Howl's Moving Castle - it's quite clearly a response to Bush's War on Terror, and I think that the deliberately confusing and superficial depiction of the war (that is to say we don't know much about the reasons behind it or about the different parties involved) is a comment on the absurdity of a war on terror when both sides think the other are the terrorists. It is not through Howl's pacifism that the war is ended, and even the ending is of such melodrama and fantasy that you could almost say that the film itself was saying that the ending was unrealistic and that the war isn't going to be ended with such idealism in real life.
Take Princess Mononoke, Ashitaka is an audience surrogate who may initially lean towards the side of the forest animals but then spends time with Eboshi and the Irontown people and realises that they too have a point. (Eboshi may actually be the most interesting and developed character that Miyazaki has created.) It's a film about the nature of conflict itself - Man v Nature, Industry v Environment, Progression v Tradition, Scepticism v Religion. Initially, I also thought that the environmentalism of Princess Mononoke was overdone but the more I've seen it the more nuanced I think it is.