The General Conversation Area

[Neil.T]

Double-post.

Thanks once again go to Rui for these words of inspiration:

Conversely, the other day I finally made up with an old friend I fell out with for a boring - but important - reason. I thought about them every single day for those ten years

Over the weekend, I bit the bullet and got back in touch with a longtime friend I haven't seen for about six years. (We've known each other since primary school.) We hadn't fallen out or anything; he'd repeatedly suggested the idea of meeting up again at some point before, but I'd always sort of declined out of concern that I wouldn't exactly be a barrel of laughs and made various excuses.

We're planning to catch up soon and see Hollywood Ghost in the Shell. Turns out Hollywood is good for something after all!

 

[st_owly (witch)]

Congrats on making up with your friend Rui.

It's the anniversary of my spawning today. Had a pretty quiet day today what with it being a Monday, but my parents came to see me at the weekend and we went out for a meal.

 

[Gemsy-chan]

Congrats on making up with your friend Rui.

It's the anniversary of my spawning today. Had a pretty quiet day today what with it being a Monday, but my parents came to see me at the weekend and we went out for a meal.

Happy spawning day

 

[Zin5ki]

It's the anniversary of my spawning today. Had a pretty quiet day today what with it being a Monday, but my parents came to see me at the weekend and we went out for a meal.

Congratulations on the number of rotations of our planet since your spawning temporarily being an integer!

 

[NormanicGrav]

Boy, I never thought I would feel like **** after having to tackle an assignment at the same time as tackling a bad cold. So the current situation: I had a mobile project alongside two others in my group that we wanted to get sorted in the best way possible because it's got the potential to earn a really good mark (i.e give us a 1st or possibly 80% mark on the module as a whole). One of us stayed behind and pulled an all-nighter to get some tough parts done as I had to face this cold (and thus would need sleep otherwise) and the other can't tackle a proper sleeping pattern if he stayed up late. The end result of the mobile game was great and we all liked how it turned out, however... as a result, this affected our presentation part that we needed to do. Most of us were drained; my cold got worse and my friend who stayed up all night had no sleep for probably 26 hours at that point. Even worse the presentation lesson started at 1pm and we didn't even get to do ours until 4:30pm, and that's not the worst part of all - the game suffered a frame rate issue (which oddly enough only occurred on non-Uni PCs) so our group was the only one who had a failed example to show. The only positive light we had was that our group finished within the time limit and our teacher admitted we tackled a pretty tough coding program compared to others. Marmalade SDK is harder than Unity in some aspects, and honestly it's pretty simple once you figure it out but there's barely any examples for the engine to help us and testing it through phones is a pain at times.

The project as a whole has gone through such a train-wreck schedule; the same person I mentioned who pulled an all-nighter is also tackling a bad infection that literally could have killed him last semester (it's not the common disease Universities are warning people about, it's apparently multiple colds in one or something like that). Anyway he got better and was able to make some progress that had to be done because I'm not the best programmer out there, I mainly tackled the user interface menus because the concept was pretty simple once you figure it all out. The third person in our team doesn't have coding knowledge of C++ since he took a web course but we made sure he sticks around when we need him (he was able to sort out designs and testing so it's balanced). This project ideally needed a minimum of 4 people but it's impressive that for the most part it ended up being pretty much a 2 man team (because the third person as I said doesn't know much).

Overall I would say it's not the end of the world, but it just disappoints me how our game just ended up this way compared to everyone elses. I've already gotten 65% in the group presentation in the first semester, worth 20% of the module; and in the 80% mobile project I've already managed to get 30/30 marks of the scrum meeting marks (worth 30% of the 80% mobile project) and around 7/10 for the December presentation (worth 10% of 80%); the rest is 60% of the 80% if that makes sense. Basically I've already passed the module, I'm just hoping to get at least 72% or more to counter the 48% overall mark I received for the DirectX11 module (which by the way was pretty damn hard, was hoping to try and get a higher 2.2 but oh well). My Project Management module is going pretty good, I've passed that module and should be able to tackle a 2.1 overall if I can get a good mark on the essay. PS4 project is going alright, our team has been caught up with various assignments going on but the deadline is due for May.

Anywho my cold is progressing alright, I am still alive obviously and was basically this for a bit (I was even wearing the Emil T-Shirt as well):

I'll be returning back home tomorrow for the Easter break but I still need to tackle a 6-7 page essay about the Games Industry due Monday afternoon plus the Final Year Project essay due at the end of the month. I have no exams oddly enough.

Feels odd to finish University soon.

 

[Neil.T]

Wow, I'm in.

I acted on an interesting suggestion from a work colleague and signed myself up for a six-week spring/summer Japanese language course. Much to my surprise, I already know enough to need to start at level 2.

I feel like I've enjoyed about four years' worth of progress within the last four weeks since pulling the proverbial cork out of the bottle with a post in this thread.

@NormanicGrav: Hang in there, Grav!

 

[Neil.T]

Well, that conversation took an unexpected turn.

Double-post, I know, but I'd again be immensely grateful for any input that anyone would be prepared to throw my way. Anyone already sick and tired of what seems to have become my usual subject in this thread, please save yourselves and look away now!

So... (deep breath) I've sort of been able to get talking with a person at my workplace who I'd already kinda liked for a little while. I happened to mention the Japanese language course I signed myself up for, and the conversation turned to her and her friend's visit to a local comic con (in cosplay, no less!) last weekend. It's really her friend who's the big anime fan, apparently, but it sounded like she enjoyed a certain film at last year's event that's also a favourite of mine. I'd rarely had the chance to chat with her before as our shifts rarely overlap (I had to wait more than a week to follow up our previous conversation), and it's pot luck whether you get a quiet enough moment or not. Again I really could've stood and talked with her for ages; it felt like barely scratching the surface.

Of course, it's not a two-way street. I would say that her response to me is no more than "politely patient" at the moment. I guess what I want to ask here is:

Do you think that already sounds the death knell for any hopes of mine? (I think it does, personally.) Or is there room for these kind of things to evolve?

The main problems would be: the already mentioned fact that our shifts rarely overlap (how is someone as bland as me supposed to build any kind of rapport with so little time to work with?); the very obvious gulf between us in the looks department (I should imagine she must be someone who finds herself, to borrow @Rui's phrasing, "swimming in people showing interest"); and the undeniable age gap (I must have probably around a decade on her. How creepy must that be?).

I'd love be able to throw caution to the wind like @Vashdaman can, since the workplace is unavoidably restrictive in terms of opportunity for conversation, but I should imagine that there's the very real danger of doing irreparable damage to what precious little I've been able to build so far. Am I right in thinking that? Is patience the key here? I'd be easily willing to fall flat on my face if it turns out she's already attached, though. It would be worth that.

If you'd offered me this situation only a month ago, I'd have bitten both your arms off for it and devoured your whole body, but I don't feel like I'm exactly doing cartwheels with joy. I don't mean to sound ungrateful, because I'm probably already punching well above my weight with what I have already. Perhaps this is what @serpantino meant about swapping one set of problems for another? It's still a set of problems I'll gladly take.

I learnt that our shifts overlap again in a couple of days. (I asked her.) I literally beg of you good folks for some input. Thanks.

 

[serpantino]

It's an important subject I think. It is a pretty strong pull in life!

It's probably best to back off a little, just be friendly-casual, don't strain to find something to talk about etc. Relax and see how it goes and don't get too caught up on her as she might not be interested, if she is she'll put some effort in too.

Think of her more as a potential friend.

 

[Neil.T]

Thanks for the input, @serpantino.

That's genuinely valuable advice, coming from someone such as yourself who's had proven success.
You're right. It's very easy to get fixated, I think. That's a pitfall.

It is a pretty strong pull in life!

You make a very compelling point there. I know within myself that I'm simply just not cut out for all this, simply going by my own track record. The problem lies in that I'm wired to want this just as much as anyone else.

But I obviously just don't have it in me. I mean, that's just common sense by this point. There's some crucial ingredients I must be lacking, or I'm consistently doing something wrong. I still haven't worked out what it is. I maybe never will.

I used to think that my appearance was my main deficiency and that I could hopefully at least fall back on my character. But I've think I've learnt from this forum, where that factor is removed, that my very personality is probably just as problematic!

 

[Rui]

If she's talking about her (or her friend's) interests to that degree, she's obviously not completely bored by your presence. That would generally elicit a bunch of monosyllabic replies and no reciprocation after being asked about things. It slays my partner when people don't seem to notice me desperately trying to end a conversation that way...

So long as you back off if she shows she really isn't interested, I don't think there's anything wrong with continuing it. She might be a guarded person and secretly looking forward to talking to you again, or she might just be a polite person making small talk. The only way to find out is to talk to her again a few days from now!

R

 

[ayase]

The longer I'm alive the more I blame verbal communication for creating all this nonsense. I think we should probably just rip out everyone's vocal chords and replace them with wifi antennas and you can let choose to let people "discover you on the network" and access your thoughts or not. But then we wouldn't have singing, and I quite like singing.

I think I probably belong with an uncontacted tribe somewhere that hasn't discovered language yet, where if you like someone you I dunno, just go and hug them in a particular way or something and if they like you they reciprocate, if they don't they hit you. That would be much, much better.

 

[Lord Bacchus]

Well, that conversation took an unexpected turn.

Double-post, I know, but I'd again be immensely grateful for any input that anyone would be prepared to throw my way. Anyone already sick and tired of what seems to have become my usual subject in this thread, please save yourselves and look away now!

So... (deep breath) I've sort of been able to get talking with a person at my workplace who I'd already kinda liked for a little while. I happened to mention the Japanese language course I signed myself up for, and the conversation turned to her and her friend's visit to a local comic con (in cosplay, no less!) last weekend. It's really her friend who's the big anime fan, apparently, but it sounded like she enjoyed a certain film at last year's event that's also a favourite of mine. I'd rarely had the chance to chat with her before as our shifts rarely overlap (I had to wait more than a week to follow up our previous conversation), and it's pot luck whether you get a quiet enough moment or not. Again I really could've stood and talked with her for ages; it felt like barely scratching the surface.

Of course, it's not a two-way street. I would say that her response to me is no more than "politely patient" at the moment. I guess what I want to ask here is:

Do you think that already sounds the death knell for any hopes of mine? (I think it does, personally.) Or is there room for these kind of things to evolve?

The main problems would be: the already mentioned fact that our shifts rarely overlap (how is someone as bland as me supposed to build any kind of rapport with so little time to work with?); the very obvious gulf between us in the looks department (I should imagine she must be someone who finds herself, to borrow @Rui's phrasing, "swimming in people showing interest"); and the undeniable age gap (I must have probably around a decade on her. How creepy must that be?).

I'd love be able to throw caution to the wind like @Vashdaman can, since the workplace is unavoidably restrictive in terms of opportunity for conversation, but I should imagine that there's the very real danger of doing irreparable damage to what precious little I've been able to build so far. Am I right in thinking that? Is patience the key here? I'd be easily willing to fall flat on my face if it turns out she's already attached, though. It would be worth that.

If you'd offered me this situation only a month ago, I'd have bitten both your arms off for it and devoured your whole body, but I don't feel like I'm exactly doing cartwheels with joy. I don't mean to sound ungrateful, because I'm probably already punching well above my weight with what I have already. Perhaps this is what @serpantino meant about swapping one set of problems for another? It's still a set of problems I'll gladly take.

I learnt that our shifts overlap again in a couple of days. (I asked her.) I literally beg of you good folks for some input. Thanks.

I thought I'd weigh in on this since I read the last few pages and was quite heartened to learn that there are people out there similar to myself. On one level I did know that my situation couldn't possibly be unique, but when you're surrounded with people who have no trouble whatsoever with relationships and friendships (at least starting them) it certainly can seem that way!

Niel, I am not exactly the most experienced in these matters since I have only plucked up the courage to try and ask someone out twice. The first time was so similar to your experience that I actually gasped a little, although in retrospect it may have actually been a little worse. I asked someone out at the age of 18 and they said yes. I got their number, and I was elated beyond belief for the whole day, but when I used the number, she had actually given me her brother's number and told him in no uncertain terms to tell me she wasn't interested (I say that, but the words he used were too crass for me to repeat here), and after that I pretty much gave up. I don't believe I did anything offputting to deserve that since I'm far too shy to say anything which could be misconstrued as hostile or assertive, but that's just how it went.

The second time was very similar to your current situation, only in the reverse, as she was around five years older than myself, and this was when I was about 20. Like in your case she was someone I knew who shared an interest in anime and such, and it started as a friendship, although we met online, not in person initially. We happened to live close enough together for us to meet regularly, so I spent months as a friend before asking her. This was reciprocated in my case, and we were together for nearly four years. If you're given the opportunity then I would say that an age gap is not something to worry about, even if the age gap in my case was not as large. Although I am now talking about this in the past tense, I have no regrets that I did try. Like yourself, it is the most terrifying thing I can think to do, which is why I've only managed it on two occasions.

 

[Lord Bacchus]

I will go on to talk about my own problems a bit now, if everyone here would indulge me a bit on that. I'll echo some of the points stated earlier, that being in a relationship is not always all it would seem it's cracked up to be. In my case it only took around a couple months before problems started to emerge. She was clinically depressed. After the initial elation that I felt of finally having my feelings reciprocated, our relationship had ups and downs, but was quite clearly on a downward trajectory. You see, prior to meeting her, I was not happy with my life, and had even contemplated whether it was all worth it. She saw something in me that I hadn't thought I possessed, and while we were still friends prior to being together, she convinced me to make a change and attempt to get into university three years late. I ended up going to university at the age of 21, but a few months prior to that was when the issues had begun.

Jealousy is like poison to a relationship, and having gone to another part of the country to pursue my degree, her own life began to take a turn for the worse, as the depression caused many of her own goals to end in misery. I tried desperately to reassure her that everything was okay, and I would often spend all night reassuring her that I wasn't going to leave and be with someone else just because I was at a university further away, and we couldn't meet quite as often (this baffled me to be honest, as such a thing had never once entered my mind). The issue there was that I had made some friends at university, and a couple of them happened to be girls. Ultimately the problem might have been that my girlfriend was very similar to myself, as she had never been in a relationship either at the time, and she may have misjudged my character (the words "all men are like that" were thrown around a few times).

Ultimately in my second year I ended up severing ties with the friends I had made, in the hope that it might settle her. I know that wasn't the best thing to do, and I suppose I was just terrified of being alone again. I did everything I could to keep things afloat, but there were other problems. In her current state I think she saw my success in my course as a problem. When I talked of possibly doing postgraduate study she would often get very aloof and upset with me, and a few times accused me of stealing her dreams. On a few other occasions she said that if she had something she alone liked and I started to like it, it would taint it im her eyes. Ultimately we did reach a kind of equilibrium for a while towards the end, but it was never that great. We entered a cycle of her becoming upset with me and "dumping me", only for her to apologise and beg for me back. Really, it probably only lasted so long because of a combination of three things. First, I did and still do love her. Second, fear of being alone again. Third, that whenever I felt like calling it quits and ending things amicably, she would often become to upset when I attempted it that I was afraid she would kill herself. On many occasions she did threaten it, and her suicidal thoughts eventually became all we ever talked about. She would talk to her friends with a look of cheerfulness, but when she talked to me she would only speak of darkness and despair, to the point that I began feeling depressed myself.

All of this came to a head a couple months ago, when in my third year I became so depressed from the combination of her, and the workload, that I began contemplating suicide. Ultimately I had to take a year's intermission from university, so at the moment I am not doing much at all. The last time I spoke to her I asked her if we could possibly talk about something other than depression, since every time in the last few months when I had brought up something like our mutual interests she had quickly diverted it to talking about her depression. When I asked that she told me "No, all I am is this, and if you won't talk to me about it then all we have is a superficial relationship, and you're not worth it". After I said that if we talked only about this I would keep feeling like dying, she dumped me. I know this is for the best, but since this was my only relationship up until now, it has left me with issues a little deeper than I had when I was only scared to talk to people, since I am now scared to talk to anyone and also afraid of betraying her, since she has left many times before and ultimately come back. As I said in the previous message, I don't regret this, it's just that not sometimes I suppose things don't end well. Though her depression was undeniably the cause, along with a few irreconcilable issues I won't get into here, I do realise now that I was probably in an emotionally manipulative relationship which would have ruined me had I continued to pursue it, but she undeniably loved me, in her own way, so I have at least a little hope that something else may happen in the future, though I don't think I will be ready to even think about attempting anything else for a very long time.

 

[Watanabe Ken]

One of the Two Manga I ordered from book depositary turned up today unfortunately it was vol 2 so I can't start reading it until I get vol 1 odd that they didn't ship them together

 

[Neil.T]

@Lord Bacchus: I'm stunned speechless, dude. Well done for posting those messages of yours. I salute your courage.

For my own part, time and time again in other threads I've clicked "Like" on one of your posts after reading it and thinking "Yes! This guy knows what he's talking about!" So it properly upsets and angers me that these things have happened to you.

That first anecdote of yours:

I don't believe I did anything offputting to deserve that since I'm far too shy to say anything which could be misconstrued as hostile or assertive

No, you certainly didn't deserve that. That's just a warped and twisted and outright bizarre way to handle anything. Those two can go and **** each other. I'm sure they'll be very happy together.

As for your second post, all I can hope to do is answer it by sort of linking it back to the story of my own singular experience, of someone who sadly had their finger on the self-destruct button.

I'd mentioned before that beyond the time when the person I'd asked out had changed her mind, things got a bit bizarre and complicated. The full story is that I continued to speak to her at work most days. She even loaned/recommended some books to me. She had great taste. (My favourites were The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time and Flowers for Algernon.) Eventually, she left to work elsewhere, we said our goodbyes, and I thought that would be that.

Some months later, an older female former work colleague of mine was planning on going to see a certain film, and the idea came up that we'd both go. In the days before, she asked me "Do you remember Xxxxxx?" [Names removed to protect the innocent! ] I don't know how much she knew, so I just said "Yeah, of course." She said "She'd like to come along too, if that's okay." Well, it was okay by me!

To cut a longer story shorter, we all had a fun outing. Towards the end of it, I was suddenly gifted with an opportunity to get Xxxxxx's number. With uncharacteristic decisiveness, I grabbed the chance. (I won't deny it: I did still like her, after all.) Somehow, I'd ended the day with her phone number. (It was a pointless endeavour, in the end: I think she texted me back... twice ever, maybe?)

So that should have been the end of that, but it still wasn't. I never spoke to Xxxxxx about this directly, but apparently she was being picked on at her new workplace. (My older female colleague told me this.) Long story short again, she left there and came back to work with us.

This was when the bizarre stuff started. I didn't know this before, but it turned out she was "infatuated" (the gossip-mongers' words, not mine) with her section manager. I heard that, at one staff outing, she caused a bit of a scene by basically throwing herself at him. (The gossip-mongers' account of events; I wasn't there.) Now obviously I'm biased, but I have literally never spoken to one person who thought that this guy was anything other than a total and utter a***hole, with his pompous attitude and generally domineering behaviour. (They were both bi, I understand. Maybe she... identified... with that... or something...?)

As time went on, Xxxxxx's behaviour became increasingly erratic and cause for alarm. Her lovely curly, sandy-coloured hair that I liked so much got hacked down to nearly nothing and dyed a horrible garish colour. (Personal choice and absolutely nothing to do with me, of course, but still upsetting to see.) She was clearly struggling with self-esteem; she seemed torn by her sexuality and hated her appearance. I sometimes honestly just wanted to grab her by the shoulders and yell sense into her, but you obviously can't do that in the workplace. I couldn't even look at her one time she again attacked how she looked as I hit back "That is not true." I was just so angry; I just wanted to tell her "You are so pretty. Why can't you see that?" I did try to text her sometimes, but she didn't answer and my words never reached her. I had to stand by helplessly.

It got worse. One time, she made up a complete lie about how, on her way to work, she'd just seen our older female colleague's young daughter (who should've been in nursery at that time of day) accompanied by an unknown man. (I heard this second-hand.) You can imagine how she must've freaked out upon hearing that. Xxxxxx later backtracked on it, saying something like "Oh, I must've imagined it or something." A p**s-poor attempt at attention-seeking? Unsurprisingly, our colleague gave Xxxxxx a wide berth from then on.

In the end, Xxxxxx was sacked after being caught with... a certain substance in her employee locker. The last I heard of her was a few years ago when a close friend of Xxxxxx's, a girl who worked in my workplace's café, mentioned that she was going to be meeting her at the weekend. "How's she getting on these days?" I asked. After a worrying hesitation, she answered "Yeah, she's... okay." It didn't sound very convincing.

That close friend died suddenly around two years ago. (The story was all over our local media.) God only knows how Xxxxxx must have taken that.

 

[Lord Bacchus]

@Lord Bacchus: I'm stunned speechless, dude. Well done for posting those messages of yours. I salute your courage.

For my own part, time and time again in other threads I've clicked "Like" on one of your posts after reading it and thinking "Yes! This guy knows what he's talking about!" So it properly upsets and angers me that these things have happened to you.

That first anecdote of yours:

No, you certainly didn't deserve that. That's just a warped and twisted and outright bizarre way to handle anything. Those two can go and **** each other. I'm sure they'll be very happy together.

As for your second post, all I can hope to do is answer it by sort of linking it back to the story of my own singular experience, of someone who sadly had their finger on the self-destruct button.

I'd mentioned before that beyond the time when the person I'd asked out had changed her mind, things got a bit bizarre and complicated. The full story is that I continued to speak to her at work most days. She even loaned/recommended some books to me. She had great taste. (My favourites were The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time and Flowers for Algernon.) Eventually, she left to work elsewhere, we said our goodbyes, and I thought that would be that.

Some months later, an older female former work colleague of mine was planning on going to see a certain film, and the idea came up that we'd both go. In the days before, she asked me "Do you remember Xxxxxx?" [Names removed to protect the innocent! ] I don't know how much she knew, so I just said "Yeah, of course." She said "She'd like to come along too, if that's okay." Well, it was okay by me!

To cut a longer story shorter, we all had a fun outing. Towards the end of it, I was suddenly gifted with an opportunity to get Xxxxxx's number. With uncharacteristic decisiveness, I grabbed the chance. (I won't deny it: I did still like her, after all.) Somehow, I'd ended the day with her phone number. (It was a pointless endeavour, in the end: I think she texted me back... twice ever, maybe?)

So that should have been the end of that, but it still wasn't. I never spoke to Xxxxxx about this directly, but apparently she was being picked on at her new workplace. (My older female colleague told me this.) Long story short again, she left there and came back to work with us.

This was when the bizarre stuff started. I didn't know this before, but it turned out she was "infatuated" (the gossip-mongers' words, not mine) with her section manager. I heard that, at one staff outing, she caused a bit of a scene by basically throwing herself at him. (The gossip-mongers' account of events; I wasn't there.) Now obviously I'm biased, but I have literally never spoken to one person who thought that this guy was anything other than a total and utter a***hole, with his pompous attitude and generally domineering behaviour. (They were both bi, I understand. Maybe she... identified... with that... or something...?)

As time went on, Xxxxxx's behaviour became increasingly erratic and cause for alarm. Her lovely curly, sandy-coloured hair that I liked so much got hacked down to nearly nothing and dyed a horrible garish colour. (Personal choice and absolutely nothing to do with me, of course, but still upsetting to see.) She was clearly struggling with self-esteem; she seemed torn by her sexuality and hated her appearance. I sometimes honestly just wanted to grab her by the shoulders and yell sense into her, but you obviously can't do that in the workplace. I couldn't even look at her one time she again attacked how she looked as I hit back "That is not true." I was just so angry; I just wanted to tell her "You are so pretty. Why can't you see that?" I did try to text her sometimes, but she didn't answer and my words never reached her. I had to stand by helplessly.

It got worse. One time, she made up a complete lie about how, on her way to work, she'd just seen our older female colleague's young daughter (who should've been in nursery at that time of day) accompanied by an unknown man. (I heard this second-hand.) You can imagine how she must've freaked out upon hearing that. Xxxxxx later backtracked on it, saying something like "Oh, I must've imagined it or something." A p**s-poor attempt at attention-seeking? Unsurprisingly, our colleague gave Xxxxxx a wide berth from then on.

In the end, Xxxxxx was sacked after being caught with... a certain substance in her employee locker. The last I heard of her was a few years ago when a close friend of Xxxxxx's, a girl who worked in my workplace's café, mentioned that she was going to be meeting her at the weekend. "How's she getting on these days?" I asked. After a worrying hesitation, she answered "Yeah, she's... okay." It didn't sound very convincing.

That close friend died suddenly around two years ago. (The story was all over our local media.) God only knows how Xxxxxx must have taken that.

I can certainly see many similarities between this person and my ex. Having been around someone with depression for a very long time, one of the things jumps out at me specifically. The one about not being happy with her looks is something I have had to reassure on so many times that the words lost all meaning to me. In the case of my relationship, I hold no illusions, I was definitely the less attractive one, but she would often get into this cycle of self loathing even when I told her that she was by far the prettiest person I'd ever met. This also manifested itself as an obsessiveness with her weight and how her skin looked. She would often tell me things like "if I haven't done any work today I don't deserve to eat anything", which sounded utterly incomprehensible to myself, and she did this for a very long time. Her response towards having eaten something she thought she shouldn't have would be to become incredibly upset over it and tell me she had binged. 99% of the time the thing she described as a binge was just eating like a normal person, or having something sweet. I still have no idea how someone who mostly maintained a weight of 8- 8 and a half stone could think they were fat. :/ Unfortunately this weight thing of hers sometimes had more direct effects on myself too. I am actually a little overweight, but her response to me ever attempting to lose some was to get despondent and try to lose more herself, even though she was the last person who needed to lose weight. It meant that I was torn between wanting to lose weight, and not wanting her to dangerously lose weight.

 

[Neil.T]

@Rui: My god. Thanks yet again for your advice. Where would I be without it?

So long as you back off if she shows she really isn't interested

Again, I cannot stress enough that that's very much the easy part. I'm pretty much hyper-sensitive to any words or gestures that would indicate that I'm bothering someone.

You know, Rui, your take on things is very intuitive:

She might be a guarded person

This had actually occurred to me as well! Believe me, the last thing I want to do is to concoct ready-made excuses for my own shortcomings, but at the same time, your advice in this thread has made me try not to automatically perceive everything quite so negatively.

She might be a guarded person and secretly looking forward to talking to you again

Haa!!! I nearly laughed out loud at that! Right now, I'd take anything better than "Oh god, him again" as an opinion of me. (As I'm sure has happened multiple times in the past. )
As I sit here today, I cannot even imagine how it must feel for someone to actually look forward to seeing you. What an amazing thought that is.

Anyway, with the combined advice of Rui and @serpantino, I at least now know I'm not expected to have to do anything rash. Thanks a ton for that!

Speaking of advice, I've long wanted to ask:

she might not be interested, if she is she'll put some effort in too.

I know that this is common sense to most people, but I've never actually seen what this looks like first-hand. What does it look like? What would count as "good signs"?

Like yourself, it is the most terrifying thing I can think to do, which is why I've only managed it on two occasions.

Yeah, terrifying is exactly the right word, dude. The other day, before I had that conversation I mentioned, I already knew I'd get to see her again that day if I went out of my way a bit, and even that prospect was nerve-wracking. I just felt absolutely wretched. I think I'm actually getting worse. I'd probably have felt less dread and been more at ease facing a firing squad! I was fine once we got talking, though; that was the fun bit.

Also, full credit to Lord Bacchus for the last paragraph of his second post, bringing up one of the biggest taboo subjects. I'll endeavour to tackle it head-on, too. I personally often think to myself that this will probably eventually be the death of me. I'm not sure that the human mind is designed to cope with such a prolonged period of anguish over something. (I sometimes ponder that I might make a morbidly interesting scientific study.) I know very well that a lot of people deal with much worse things on a daily basis, but I guess this just gets me in a weak spot.

The problem is when it starts to eat into everything else, as is an increasing problem for me. My concentration span has been absolutely terrible lately. I just can't seem to focus on any kind of passive activity just now without becoming quite despondent. For example, I've been trying to watch a boxset of Otogi Zoshi for about three weeks now, and I can only manage a couple of episodes every few days. I feel like I'm gradually running out of places to hide.

Full disclosure in spoiler tab:

Spoiler

I found the opening of A Silent Voice somewhat chilling to watch, and that was partly because I knew pretty much instantly what Shouya was planning. Many moons ago I myself had various notes and reminders prepared for when the time finally came, to make things easier and more streamlined. I tore those up a few years ago, and that genuinely felt very liberating. I've lived the past few years not really understanding what drove me that far. Unfortunately, I feel like I've now remembered.

I also feel like I'm in a bit of a dangerous position by now. I know that, realistically, there's no way for a beginner like me to make things work out with someone first attempt. That's not even a remotely realistic idea: you'd just make too many stupid mistakes and the other party would quickly get fed up of you. The problem is that I've never been confident in my ability to bounce back from something like that. I mentioned before that I've gotten to be pretty emotionally brittle by this stage, and I think something like that could be the final hammer blow. So, the only other option is to try to just avoid it. But then that's the very thing that's causing the problem. [Repeat thought process.]

These forums are very important to me, though. I really couldn't overstate that. I've never had something like this to join in with before. This very thread is of tremendous value. I really, genuinely do not know what I would have done without it and the viewpoints so many kind folks have contributed.

I don't think I will be ready to even think about attempting anything else for a very long time.

You might surprise yourself, buddy. The gaps in between that you've listed are a lot shorter than mine, and you've already survived something that I'm really not confident that I could. That alone shows great strength and resilience. None of it was your fault: you just got caught up in someone else's self-destructiveness, and yet you still stuck by her when many others wouldn't have. That, too, surely shows your character. You'll pull through this yet! I don't know whether these words have been of any kind of use to you or not, but I do know that I'll be looking forward to reading your continuing contributions to these forums in the meantime.

 

[Lord Bacchus]

You might surprise yourself, buddy. The gaps in between that you've listed are a lot shorter than mine, and you've already survived something that I'm really not confident that I could. That alone shows great strength and resilience. None of it was your fault: you just got caught up in someone else's self-destructiveness, and yet you still stuck by her when many others wouldn't have. That, too, surely shows your character. You'll pull through this yet! I don't know whether these words have been of any kind of use to you or not, but I do know that I'll be looking forward to reading your continuing contributions to these forums in the meantime.

It's probably going to take a long while. I'll be honest here, I feel a lot worse these days than I ever did before I met her. If I were to miraculously end up in a healthy relationship it would probably be a shock to my system and I'd find myself making stupid mistakes. So far, I have no experience of what a normal healthy relationship is supposed to look like. If this had just not happened for my first one it might not feel so earth shattering to me, but I'll have to muddle through somehow.

To be honest, asking and being accepted like that was such a fluke that I can't imagine a situation where it would happen again. The reason I think I was able to even get as far as that was because she was A. someone I met online who shared interests, who I had known as a friend for a long time, and B. so much like myself that I often felt we were two sides of the same coin, even down to the having never had a relationship of any kind previously. If I had to approach someone more experienced than myself, I would most certainly crumble under the pressure. The friends I mentioned making in the first year of university were likewise a fluke, since they were flatmates, it would have been impossible not to come to know them. But after I cut ties in the second year I didn't make any friends at all, and spent the last year and a half isolating myself to my university flat, only coming outside to attend lectures and buy food, and gradually became more and more isolated/depressed. During that time the only people in contact with me with any kind of regularity were my ex (who made it worse), and occasional calls from my family. One of the reasons I find it very difficult to rewatch 'Welcome to the NHK' is because I see so much of myself in the protagonist that it freaks me out a little, although I'm obviously not quite at the exagerrated level displayed there (and I don't plan to make any eroges...yet).

 

[Neil.T]

The only way to find out is to talk to her again a few days from now!

Wow. That literally could not have gone any better! The more I speak to her and the more I learn about her, the more I grow to like her.

She might be a guarded person and secretly looking forward to talking to you again

I'd take anything better than "Oh god, him again" as an opinion of me.

It was actually a lot closer to Rui's version than mine. What?!

I was absolutely dying of nerves again. It was hard work, and I had to use all my best tactics and intuition to make running into her again seem so casual and coincidental, but I think I pulled it off pretty well! I was very pleasantly surprised by her positive greeting; I'd been worried that I'd made a couple of stupid missteps in conversation last time and was prepared for the worst, but there was no sign of that at all!

We'd already had a bit of a chat, picking up where we left off last time, and I was waiting by the staff lift as she was about to walk past me. I'd just opened my mouth to spout something to say cheerio for the day and call its quits while I was ahead, when she picked up our conversation from the other day and started asking about the Japanese language course I've got booked. She even said at one point "I'm looking forward to hearing you speak some Japanese when the course is finished." It didn't come across as just some generic pleasantry either; she seemed genuinely intrigued by it. She told me she'd like to study a course to improve her Italian; she has Italian heritage (her grandparents). I didn't know that, and it's fascinating.

She seemed somehow more relaxed this time, and that made me relax in response. I completely forgot about prickly stuff like how near I was standing, etc. I felt actually really comfortable in her company. We must have been stood there talking for something like half an hour again before I got dragged away to a scheduled training meeting.

Early in the conversation, I asked whether her anime-watching friend watched Sword Art Online at all, because the film is showing at a couple of nearby cinemas. She wasn't sure, but her friend (she used her friend's actual name this time around) lives miles away anyway. At some point a thought occurred to me, so I nonchalantly suggested "You wouldn't fancy coming along to see the film, would you?" She declined, but seemed to suggest she might have gone to see it if she'd seen any of the actual series. I added that since booking the ticket, I'd seen some not-so-good reviews of it, so maybe couldn't recommend it anyway. I didn't seem like I caused any terminal damage with that, given our chat that followed. Maybe, if nothing else, it sowed the idea that I'd be interested in seeing her outside of work at some future point? (Or am I deluding myself with that?)

We parted well as well, I thought. I ran into her again before I finished. She mentioned last time that she and her family are celebrating a birthday at the weekend (her brother's), so I brought that up and said I hope you have fun. I asked whether she was in any early shifts next week; she didn't know off the top of her head, but she properly wracked her brains trying to remember! So I said I hoped to run into her again at some point next week and said bye. I even allowed myself a little smile! I really couldn't have wished for anything more: I thought that went really well.

Thanks to @serpantino and Rui for their advice. It helped keep me grounded. And sane!

To top it off, I popped into HMV on the way home, and they had the twin-pack of Gantz live-action films I'd been hoping to get. What a bonus!

Today has been a great day for me. If nothing else, I get to keep my memories of today. Even just that's enough for now.

 

[Neil.T]

(and I don't plan to make any eroges...yet).

Glad to see yer sense of humour is still intact, dude.

One of the reasons I find it very difficult to rewatch 'Welcome to the NHK' is because I see so much of myself in the protagonist that it freaks me out a little, although I'm obviously not quite at the exagerrated level displayed there

Oh my god, I love Welcome to the NHK. I totally get where you're coming from, though.

In terms of anime series that are a bit difficult to watch because they feel a bit... near the knuckle, mine would probably be The Tatami Galaxy. If you've seen it, there's a bit in the first episode where the protagonist (who is never named) is goaded into asking out a girl he likes during a busy summer festival scene, and shoved across the bridge where she's walking towards him in the opposite direction. He starts to hyperventilate, his vision goes shaky, and he's drawn as a jittering, blocky mess. He achieves absolutely nothing in the conversation, freezes up and then suddenly says something like "Well, I must be going." He then breathes a sigh of relief, turns back to normal and convinces himself "That went well. That's enough for today." That's still me to a tee, that is. And a lot of other people too, I'm sure, given that it's depicted in the episode as it is! And that line... "I'm not going to lose. I'm not going to lose to pining for love."

Episode 6 as well, where he freaks out at the idea of physical intimacy, and vows to protect his "long-protected virginity", much to the cowboy's dismay.

Spoiler: who's the cowboy?

The cowboy represents his penis.

I can't identify with the episode where he chooses the love doll, though. That just wouldn't be my bag.

And the last two episodes are an absolutely terrifying idea to me.

Spoiler: the last two episodes

He's trapped for months in an inescapable maze consisting of countless iterations of the same room.

@Lord Bacchus: I've been re-reading your posts.

she convinced me to make a change and attempt to get into university

I'm sure her hypocrisy isn't lost on you, dude, so I'm sure nobody even needs to point that out. What's supposed to be the point of offering someone you care about encouragement to do something and then lashing out at the result?

Look at how these read when you line them all up:

I ended up severing ties with the friends I had made, in the hope that it might settle her.

I am actually a little overweight, but her response to me ever attempting to lose some was to get despondent and try to lose more herself, even though she was the last person who needed to lose weight. It meant that I was torn between wanting to lose weight, and not wanting her to dangerously lose weight.

whenever I felt like calling it quits and ending things amicably, she would often become to upset when I attempted it that I was afraid she would kill herself. On many occasions she did threaten it

I was probably in an emotionally manipulative relationship which would have ruined me had I continued to pursue it

There's no "probably" about it, dude: you hit the nail on the head. Who needs all of that grief in their life? She's supposed to care about you, for god's sake. All of the above is a funny way of showing it. Like I said, you just don't need any of that in your life. Nobody does.

You deserve better, man. I hope you realise that.

I'll be honest here, I feel a lot worse these days than I ever did before I met her.

No bloody wonder. That would drag anyone down into the bowels of some kind of hell.

To be honest, asking and being accepted like that was such a fluke that I can't imagine a situation where it would happen again.

I can't see how it was a fluke. It didn't work out in the end, but asking her out and hearing a yes as an answer was no fluke. What was it Rui said before?

If the other person accepts one day, whether it's the first person you ask or the thousandth person, you need to avoid thinking they're insane, blind or the victim of some accidental trick of fate and acknowledge that they see things in you which are just as wonderful as the things you admire about them. Even if you still think you suck deep down.

End of!

I can't imagine a situation where it would happen again.

Well I guess you need to wait for lightning to strike twice. Or even better, put yourself in a spot where lightning will strike twice. I'm not sure about that part yet as I'm still trying find my own way with all of this just now. Anyone got any firmer advice for our Bacchus?

The friends I mentioned making in the first year of university were likewise a fluke, since they were flatmates, it would have been impossible not to come to know them.

Nope, I can't agree with that at all. You were friends, weren't you? Well, there you go. How was that a fluke?

How did your friends react when you cut ties with them?