Get in the Simulwatch - Neon Genesis Evangelion [End of Eva - 21/7]

[ayase]

Well I understand why I've always hated Shinji Ikari. He sucks so bad in this. The jacking it over Asuka is so stupid and feels like it's there just to shock you. Shinji wouldn't even kiss a sleeping Asuka, I dont buy he'd react like that. Also the ending is so bleak. Why go back to strangling Asuka? Did he learn nothing during instrumentality? Also the level of self pitying he was going through throughout was annoying.

Visually it was great but ultimately I prefer the way the series ended. It presented the ideas in a more interesting and thoughtful way than EoE and gives Shinji a much "happier" ending which I felt he had earned.

On this topic, I'm not sure I can really say anything I didn't already say in the all-purpose Eva thread. I see them as quite tonally different endings, but each have their merits. EoE, as folks here have identified, does I think make the characters stronger, but it is more cynical. I do wonder if that might have something to do with Anno’s feelings towards the audience in the wake of the TV show...

I'd say that, perhaps (trying to tap into Shinji's mindset here), standing looking at Asuka while doing that doesn't require any actual interaction with her, whereas kissing her in her sleep would have.

That's exactly the way I read that as well, and was going to say as much before you did. Should we worry, Neil? Although again, I do wonder if that might have something to do with Anno’s feelings towards the audience in the wake of the TV show...

 

[Neil.T]

Director's Cut observations:
Episode 23'

Rei... She is the product of my despair, and at the same time... the vessel of your hope even now.

There are a number of very significant differences between the original version and the Director's Cut of this episode. The main ones involve Rei's contact with the 16th Angel. Firstly, there's the image of the tower of Angels that burst out of the back of Unit-00, separating its armour. Also, as the Angel tries to attack Unit-01, it becomes a vision of Rei, shrieking in her voice as Shinji stabs it with the prog knife. Shinji's hand then bubbles up into a cluster of mumbling Rei effigies.

Then there's an image even more unsettling than the tower of Angels: the belly of Unit-00 bloats up in a grotesque depiction of pregnancy as it absorbs the Angel into itself. Note also that the Angel is absorbed between the Eva's legs. The image of the belly collapsing back in on itself as if crushed by extreme pressure is something that would later be used by Gurren Lagann in a particularly impactful scene of its own.

Finally, there's one of the most memorable images of the series for me as Unit-00 morphs into an Eva-sized vision of Rei, complete with halo. There are sounds of ecstasy heard just before it self-destructs. Both visions of the glowing white Rei pre-empt its appearance in The End of Evangelion.

Beyond this, Rei's facial expressions in her scene back at home have been redrawn brilliantly. Whereas before her expressions were completely blank and unreadable, she now looks tired and fed up while looking in the mirror, and coldly resentful while looking at Gendo's glasses. Ritsuko's expressions have been revised, too. in the original episode, her face as she descends the escalator in NERV HQ following her release by SEELE is completely static; in the revised version it communicates some kind of internal conflict that she seems to resolve and reach a decision on. And that decision involves the Dummy Plug plant.

Smaller changes include new on-screen displays on the monitors at NERV, and a honeycomb background behind the lift as Ritsuko, Misato and Shinji head downwards inside.

Also, and I didn't pick up on this myself, partly because the terminology seems to be a bit off, but on the walls of Rei's birthplace are scrawled the words "top", "bottom" and "strangeness". These are references to quantum mechanics, as explained here:

Theory and Analysis:Rei's Ghostly Appearances and Quantum Mechanics - EvaWiki - An Evangelion Wiki - EvaGeeks.org

wiki.evageeks.org

I personally find the article overall to be another example of overanalysis, and would instead suggest that the presence of the words perhaps simply offers some kind of deliberately vague "explanation" as to how Rei was cloned in the first place.


Episode 24'

"Humans forgot their foolishness and repeat their mistakes."

"If humans do not redeem themselves willingly, they will not change."

As well as the brand-new conversation scene with Kaworu and the monoliths at the lake, SEELE's dialogue as he descends towards Terminal Dogma has been changed entirely. This is the only dialogue change between versions, so it must surely be significant. Directly from the ADV subtitles, then...

Original:

"The last Angel has invaded Central Dogma. It is currently descending."

"Just as we planned."

"Ikari, you were our good friend, our comrade and conspirator, but this is your last job. I expect that you will use Unit-01 to accomplish the mission."

Director's Cut:

"Humans forget their foolishness and repeat their mistakes."

"If humans do not redeem themselves willingly, they will not change."

"We will not rely on the power of Adam or the Angels."

"Our only choice is to make changes with our own hands for the future. I will be praying that Unit-01 will accomplish its task."


Very much different in its focus.

###

For the sake of completeness, here's a set of links to Evageeks' studies of the differences between the original On Air and revised Director's Cut versions of episodes 21–24:

Episode 21: https://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episode_21_OA_vs._DC

Episode 22: https://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episode_22_OA_vs._DC

Episode 23: https://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episode_23_OA_vs._DC

Episode 24: https://wiki.evageeks.org/Guides:Episode_24_OA_vs._DC

List of all the comparison pages on the site: https://wiki.evageeks.org/Category:Comparison_Pages


@~AyaMachi~: The difference in Rei's expressions is really worth a look. It's in the Episode 23 link, further down the page. It starts with the cut that's numbered 246 in the left-hand column.

 

[Professor Irony]

Also, and I didn't pick up on this myself, partly because the terminology seems to be a bit off, but on the walls of Rei's birthplace are scrawled the words "top", "bottom" and "strangeness". These are references to quantum mechanics, as explained here:

Theory and Analysis:Rei's Ghostly Appearances and Quantum Mechanics - EvaWiki - An Evangelion Wiki - EvaGeeks.org

wiki.evageeks.org

I personally find the article overall to be another example of overanalysis, and would instead suggest that the presence of the words perhaps simply offers some kind of deliberately vague "explanation" as to how Rei was cloned in the first place.

Don't think I'd even spotted that text onscreen, but that interests me, as, while I'm unsure whether it figures in the ADV version, the Netflix script does give Ritsuko a line explaining that 'Shinji now exists only at the quantum level' (or something to that effect) after he first disappears into the LCL. I'd meant to flag that up at the time, but I don't know, might have been writing about a lot of other things in the same post. It's very vague, but in a roundabout way, could these not be subtle hints about the nature of instrumentality, when essentially everyone will be reverted to this state? Even if the scrawls in the Rei room are just flavour text, it does at least look like they're still tying back into an overall theme.

Incidentally, the only reason I have any knowledge of Quantum theory and how our perceptions of time and self cease to have meaning at the sub-atomic level, is because it came up in the schlocky 80s John Carpenter film Prince of Darkness, which throws around a lot of really intriguing ideas, and then completely fails to do anything with them...

 

[WMD]

Quantum mechanics is insanely hard to conceptualize! We had lectures on it at uni and it was one of the topics I most struggled with!

What it certainly helps us with is defining atomic structure. At school we learn electrons go around the atom nucleus in an orbit like a planet around the sun but this isn't the case in reality. The electron actually exists in a space around the nucleus we define as a probability density. i.e 90% of the time the electron is in this space around the nucleas.

Without the interactions of electrons atoms couldn't bond to form molecules. So intrusmentality could be seen as a process whereby the AT field is our bonding orbitals breaking down in some way to cease interactions and atomise.

Molecules are also held together by other forces (electronic, hydrogen bonding, van de waals and gravity) so the AT field loss could be seen as a break down of these forces in general.

 

[Deleted member 4555]

Chemistry and physics were my worst sciences in school, even though I really wanted to understand the topics. There's just so many mind-boggling concepts!

You know your stuff, @WMD

 

[WMD]

Chemistry and physics were my worst sciences in school, even though I really wanted to understand the topics. There's just so many mind-boggling concepts!

You know your stuff, @WMD

Cheers. I did chemistry at uni but that meant a lot of physical chemistry which was basically just physics and the quantum stuff was pretty insane really.

Also, and I didn't pick up on this myself, partly because the terminology seems to be a bit off, but on the walls of Rei's birthplace are scrawled the words "top", "bottom" and "strangeness". These are references to quantum mechanics, as explained here:

Theory and Analysis:Rei's Ghostly Appearances and Quantum Mechanics - EvaWiki - An Evangelion Wiki - EvaGeeks.org

wiki.evageeks.org

I personally find the article overall to be another example of overanalysis, and would instead suggest that the presence of the words perhaps simply offers some kind of deliberately vague "explanation" as to how Rei was cloned in the first place.

That articles take home from the up, down, strange terminology seems a but odd to me. Quarks, namely the up and down quarks, are the main building blocks of neutrons and protons. Neutrons and protons are what make up the nucleus of an atom. It could just be to do with how she was made. It could as I said in the other post be to do with the AT field being a substitute for the forces that hold and bind us together.

Also stating that rei could be everywhere due to quantum is nonsense. The uncertainty principle doesnt mean something can be everywhere. It would be more correct to say it could be anywhere but it's still intimately in one place. (If you know one property of a particle like its momentum you cannot know its position and vice versa.)

 

[Neil.T]

I also noticed, in the anime, in the part where we see Asuka announce herself over and over that each one is a different VA (just for the part with the "I'm Asuka Langley Souryu"). I definitely heard Rei's and Misato's, not sure about the other(s) Ritsuko and/or Hikari maybe. The same happens, I think, in the Japanese dub (I mean it would be weird for the English dub to change that much from the original), but I can't tell which ones they are as I haven't watched enough of the Japanese dub.

I went back and revisited this bit of episode 22. The same four lines of dialogue loop four times, and I heard them as the Japanese VAs of: Misato, Rei, Maya, Rei again (the last line is the giveaway; it's got this slightly husky sort of rasp on one syllable that's characteristic of Megumi Hayashibara), and Hikari, in that order. Hayashibara is versatile enough to be able to perform those lines in such different ways.

I've never heard the dub of that bit, and I wouldn't recognise the US VAs anyway.

That's exactly the way I read that as well, and was going to say as much before you did. Should we worry, Neil? Although again, I do wonder if that might have something to do with Anno’s feelings towards the audience in the wake of the TV show...

I guess we've just got a good grasp of Shinji's character. (There's a lewd comeback somewhere in there.) What do you make of @WMD's idea, though, that doing it back at home would've been more characteristic of Shinji?

And leading on from that, this came up a second time in your post:

EoE, as folks here have identified, does I think make the characters stronger, but it is more cynical. I do wonder if that might have something to do with Anno’s feelings towards the audience in the wake of the TV show...

I think a lot of things have much to do with Hideaki Anno's feelings towards the audience while making Eva, and much to do with the inside of Anno's head in general.

That sequence in EoE, for example, with the female VAs all piling in with sentiments of rejection. Manga's on-disc commentary would echo this sentiment, but... it's nothing to do with Shinji or even Evangelion by that point, is it? That's all Anno.

That articles take home from the up, down, strange terminology seems a but odd to me. Quarks, namely the up and down quarks, are the main building blocks of neutrons and protons. Neutrons and protons are what make up the nucleus of an atom. It could just be to do with how she was made. It could as I said in the other post be to do with the AT field being a substitute for the forces that hold and bind us together.

Also stating that rei could be everywhere due to quantum is nonsense.

That's all really insightful, dude!
And the underlined part is exactly what I believe as well.

I'd love to have the chance to point out on the Evageeks forum sometime:
"There's a user called WMD on an anime forum called AUKN, and he knows about quantum mechanics. He was able to prove with little effort that your 'Quantum Rei' theory is all b*llocks!"

 

[ayase]

I guess we've just got a good grasp of Shinji's character. (There's a lewd comeback somewhere in there.) What do you make of @WMD's idea, though, that doing it back at home would've been more characteristic of Shinji?

I think perhaps the point that scene is making (other than that the audience are chronic masturbators who don't actually want to be made to think or self reflect and just want cute girls to jack off to - There's a J.G. Ballard quote I'm only familiar with because it was sampled on a Manic Street Preachers song: "I wanted to rub the human face in its own vomit and force it to look in the mirror" and I think that's at least partially what Anno was going for here) is that Shinji, as others have interestingly enough said about Misato, has serious issues with knowing how to express affection or desire (understandably, I mean look at his dad). On a personal level, yeah, that's certainly something I understand and can relate to.

This manifests itself in Shinji so desperately wanting Asuka both emotionally and physically but not being able to express that to her (except when she's unconscious and has no way of knowing or responding, or potentially rejecting him). I think that's probably why it's important she's right there with him rather than him just being in his own thoughts. He gets to say (and uh, do) the things he wants to but without the intimidating feeling of her actually knowing and judging him for that. Of course in the end she does know, and while obviously finding it disgusting she doesn't particularly react otherwise, certainly not in the way the audience might expect. Personal reading here, but I feel like that may be because she now recognises that they are similar in that regard, hiding their emotions and desires - In Asuka's case behind a mask of anger and in Shinji's simply bottling it all up.

 

[Professor Irony]

Wait, so this Quantum Rei... she kind of leaps around the place, yeah?



I'll get my coat.

 

[WMD]

I'd love to have the chance to point out on the Evageeks forum sometime:
"There's a user called WMD on an anime forum called AUKN, and he knows about quantum mechanics. He was able to prove with little effort that your 'Quantum Rei' theory is all b*llocks!"

Haha I think they've managed to conflate the uncertainty principle and quantum super positioning which is the schrodingers cat thought experiment. Where before you look in the box the cat is both dead and alive at the same time. It's the basis of what will make quantum computing possible by having parallel computing.

 

[WMD]

Wait, so this Quantum Rei... she kind of leaps around the place, yeah?

View attachment 9605

I'll get my coat.

An anime where Rei quantum leaps into other animes is one i would watch.

 

[WMD]

Meant to mention this the other day but I think everyone in this thread would enjoy Kokkoku. Saw it at the weekend and was surprised by how into it I got. It has a really cool sci fi premise that the show just runs with. And the final episode is a bit different with more of a psychological look at the main character. Also it's only 12 eps so pretty quick to watch.

 

[D1tchd1gger]

Death (True)² & EoE
A few thoughts. There are a few new parts in Death of the Children being a string 4 piece.
Then after her intro a male voice over listing Asuka's bad points, I think it was Ryoji (I watched it at 2 in the morning and didn't take notes).
And time stamps for events in the present, I think there was a scene towards the end, then a time stamp of 9 months earlier, then a scene towards the beginning (again didn't write it down). I don't think time in the present was mentioned much, I know Shinji spent about a month trapped in 01, but I think that was from the Manga.

Death seems to rag on Asuka a bit and I think that scene in EoE is Anno making a comment on some Otakus relationships to characters (and probably would have been even more on the nose if Shinji did it in his bedroom!)

The quote that I took note of most was during the live action section with characters talking about dreams. Again a swipe at the Otakus (most specifically the ones that attacked him, shown by the images of Internet chat pages). Talk of Shinji not being here and avoiding reality.
But he also takes a bit of a swipe at himself. Of creating a "Convenient fantasy to take revenge against reality"

I'll do the manga thing at some point. From what I remember most of it is the same apart from that scene and the EoEoE. Plus there's a few epilogues.

 

[Neil.T]

Then after her intro a male voice over listing Asuka's bad points, I think it was Ryoji (I watched it at 2 in the morning and didn't take notes).

It was Kensuke.
(At least, it is in the original Japanese audio.)

I think that scene in EoE is Anno making a comment on some Otakus relationships to characters (and probably would have been even more on the nose if Shinji did it in his bedroom!)

The quote that I took note of most was during the live action section with characters talking about dreams. Again a swipe at the Otakus (most specifically the ones that attacked him, shown by the images of Internet chat pages). Talk of Shinji not being here and avoiding reality.
But he also takes a bit of a swipe at himself. Of creating a "Convenient fantasy to take revenge against reality"

This is all very interesting, and very much ties in with a YouTube video I was watching earlier. Some thoughts coming up later on in The Evangelion thread.

 

[D1tchd1gger]

Talking of YouTube videos. Digi Bro's series is interesting, especially the videos on 6 & 7, and 8 & 9 which talk about overall themes as well. Seems to stop after these though:

Evangelion Analysis: Evangelion Analysis - YouTube

He seems to stop doing a project when bored/distracted a lot. Anyway here's a separate video about the influence of NGE, specifically anime originals on TV:

 

[Professor Irony]

Might try to have a look at those, they seem fairly short videos.

Death (True)² & EoE
There are a few new parts in Death of the Children being a string 4 piece.

I'd forgotten about that - it's a curious inclusion, I think it's only the second time in the anime (at least pre-rebuild) that we actually see Shinji playing his cello.

Meant to mention this the other day but I think everyone in this thread would enjoy Kokkoku. Saw it at the weekend and was surprised by how into it I got. It has a really cool sci fi premise that the show just runs with. And the final episode is a bit different with more of a psychological look at the main character. Also it's only 12 eps so pretty quick to watch.

I started on Kokkoku ages ago, but I think I only ever saw about three episodes - the premise was interesting, but I found it a bit heavy on the exposition. Will try to give it another shot though.

Before the thread winds down too much, I'd also like to take the chance to thank everyone who participated. I don't think going through the show on my own would have been nearly as enjoyable as it was to do it with everyone else.

 

[Neil.T]

I think it's only the second time in the anime (at least pre-rebuild) that we actually see Shinji playing his cello.

It's not remotely spoilery or anything, so I can tell you that Shinji's cello playing is never mentioned in Rebuild. A minor element of the original that was excised for the sake of running time/space for the new films.

Before the thread winds down too much, I'd also like to take the chance to thank everyone who participated. I don't think going through the show on my own would have been nearly as enjoyable as it was to do it with everyone else.

It's been tremendous, Prof. I've hugely enjoyed it. It was a unique opportunity to delve into some of the specifics of an absolutely classic series and indulge in some fascinating discussion and a bit of banter. ✌
Fantastic job MC-ing the thread as well, dude. Major props.

I've yet to actually watch any of the videos you posted about the Eva games, but those are next on my watch list.

Eternal gratitude to the amazing @~AyaMachi~ for finding the DVDs and sending me them. What an incredible thing. We'll get to watch the show together further down the line.


Any further thoughts on a Nadia simulwatch at some point, after a little break?

 

[Professor Irony]

Somehow, I always thought the cello would be more significant - the idea of taking up something that's supposed to be a creative outlet simply because it's expected of you certainly chimes in with Shinji's personality.

One other thing I meant to mention with EoE for anyone who's interested, as I don't think it ever made it to any of the official English-language releases, is that there's a lengthy (10 minutes!) live-action sequence that was deleted from the final film. Like a very mundane take on It's a Wonderful Life, it shows a possible a reality where Shinji never existed, placing Misato, Asuka and Rei (all played by their VAs) as regular office drones going about their daily lives, albeit at a point where their conversations do mirror some of Shinji's thoughts from earlier in the film. It's a little tedious, and it's not hard to see why it would have been cut, but it's such a bizarre artifact that I'd highly recommend seeking it out (not sure if it's entirely kosher to link it directly). If nothing else, it makes an interesting counterpart for the 'anime romcom' fantasy sequence in the TV version.

Any further thoughts on a Nadia simulwatch at some point, after a little break?

Yeah, I'd be up for that. Willing to run the thread if no-one else wants to, but equally I'd encourage anyone else to have a go if they're keen for it - if I do it, I worry I'd be repeating a lot of what I said last time.

 

[WMD]

Still need to watch these videos. There was one coming up in my recommendations which I went to watch yest and the guy mispronounced Evangelion 5 times in the first 30s so I lost any hope he knew what he was talking about and gave up on it.

I'm definitely up for Nadia. When were people thinking? I'm away last week of august/ 1st of sept.

 

[Neil.T]

Still need to watch these videos. There was one coming up in my recommendations which I went to watch yest and the guy mispronounced Evangelion 5 times in the first 30s so I lost any hope he knew what he was talking about and gave up on it.

Let me guess. "Eevan-jellion"?

I'm definitely up for Nadia. When were people thinking? I'm away last week of august/ 1st of sept.

We can always build a pause into the simulwatch at that point. It's a longer series as well, so it might not be a bad idea to have a pause in it to allow anyone who's dropped behind a bit to recover.

So far, there's yourself, the Prof, @Patient-X and me who are interested.

Perhaps I can start a thread for it and use the opening post to draw up a schedule showing the date for each episode, at a rate of one episode a day with a pause where anyone needs it, and also marking the "Island" episodes as optional. (That would create a further 12-day pause for anyone not wanting to watch those.)

I'm willing to have a crack at that if everyone's in agreement and is okay with someone who's not seen the series yet organising the thread.
I'd basically just use the Prof's format for this one, because it's worked really well.