thedoctor2016
Mushi-shi
I still don’t get the outrage as yeah the scenes speak for them. And even “love” is ambiguous Evangelion does that even with Misato.
Get in the Simulwatch - Neon Genesis Evangelion [End of Eva - 21/7]
- Thread starter Professor Irony
- Start date
I'll post a more detailed comparison of Episodes 23 and 23' (Director's Cut) another time but, for now, here are the comparison shots of the chair/phallus image:
Original:
Director's Cut:
As you can see, in the DC version, there's now a clear division between Shinji and the chair. It's not outwith the bounds of possiblity that its original placement was no more than a cheap knob gag.
This is Gainax, after all!
Director's Cut:
As you can see, in the DC version, there's now a clear division between Shinji and the chair. It's not outwith the bounds of possiblity that its original placement was no more than a cheap knob gag.
This is Gainax, after all!
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Yami
Thousand Master
I'm not sure it does imply it on Kaworu's part, though we can certainly see that Shinji's interpretation of Kaworu's words and actions may have been that they were expressed romantically. But, like I said in a previous post, Kaworu is not human and I don't think we should interpret his words and actions in the same way that we would an ordinary human character. Even if Kaworu intends a romantic interpretation, can we be sure that he's not just being mischievous? He undoubtedly has insights into Shinji's character that would enable him to manipulate him with his words and actions.
Captaaainuniverse
Time-Traveller
If everyone's finished the series by now, whose gonna watch death true?
I know it's a big recap so I won't, I'll be waiting to go straight on to End
I know it's a big recap so I won't, I'll be waiting to go straight on to End
Really meant to do this last night, but I've pencilled in End of Evangelion for tomorrow, if everyone is cool with that?
Captaaainuniverse
Time-Traveller
I got it off so fine with me, I reckon it counts as long as we can watch it some time this weekend
D1tchd1gger
Shrine Maiden
Episodes 23 & 24 - Manga Time
There's a number of changes to the events of episode 23 mostly to do with the fact that Kaworu is already present, but other stuff happens earlier (so mentioned in earlier posts) or has been cut/added:
As Kaworu turned up earlier (chapter 57) obviously some of the events of this episode is different (I'll do a separate discussion about him in the manga). The events of the first half are in a different order, but the second half is mostly the same.
There's a number of changes to the events of episode 23 mostly to do with the fact that Kaworu is already present, but other stuff happens earlier (so mentioned in earlier posts) or has been cut/added:
The opening of the episode with Misato and Shinji at home and Asuka at Hikari's is gone.
Instead the last few pages of chapter 61 show Asuka already in hospital in the state we see her in, in episode 24. Ritsuko explains her damaged psyche to Shinji as he visits. Misato tells Kaworu he's now a pilot effective immediately.
The scene with Ritsuko's phone call with her grandmother has already happened (chapter 56)
The scene with SEELE and Gendo is the same, but then SEELE talk to Kaworu.
Shinji visits Asuka again, Rei and Kaworu meet similar to ep 24, but they meet again later when she is Rei III.
The sync test from ep 24 happens and then the shower scene.
Shinji and Rei have a talk and Shinji wonders if he can get closer than they already are remembering when she asked to hold his hand.
Misato discussion about Kaworu (from ep 24) still happens in a car, but she's driving and then spots the angel.
Obviously Asuka is out of the picture so Kaworu takes her place and he gets a chain saw!
The angel enters Rei, but with a slight difference of it splitting into multiple tendrils.
The scene between Rei and the angel is the same apart from the angel goads Rei about the fact that Shinji keeps visiting Asuka.
Kaworu is having a hard time and manages to saw the leg off of Unit 02.
Shinji deploys the same, but actually stabs the angel in its Rei form, but the angel still grabs Unit 01.
Reis sacrifice is the same.
As is the scene with Ritsuko and the containment team.
The next SEELE scene is the same.
Ritsuko looking at the photo was also part of chapter 56 earlier.
Instead of the scene with Shinji and Misato, Shinji is stating with Kaworu. Misato in the meantime isn't rejected by Pen-Pen, but still berates herself for being a poor guardian.
The scene with Gendo and Fuyutsuki with Rei III in the tube is missing.
Misato gets the same call about Rei and then calls Shinji.
In the hospital Rei has the same line about being the third one, but we see Shinji ask what see means before Ritsuko ushers her away.
Gendo and Fuyutsuki discuss SEELE and Ritsuko.
Added stuff includes Ritsuko complaining about Rei then being accosted by a man in black.
Then Kaworu is on his own in his room. Shinji asks Misato the same question about Rei being the third, as Misato thinks about what Ritsuko is up to.
In a slight change of order we see Ritsuko with SEELE before Rei's scene at home.
And then comes the backstory of Ritsuko's mothers death.
The discovery of the microchip that Ryoji slipped to Misato was already done in chapter 55.
Ritsuko's call to Shinji is specific about what she wants.
Misato showing up with a gun on Ritsuko and Ritsuko saying he has to come too is the same.
The next few scenes of Rei's birthplace, the dumping ground and the dummy system clones is pretty much the same, but the facts are laid out much more clearly including Rei's birth place is exactly where Shinji's mother died and her heart/soul was salvaged and the true nature of the EVAs.
Instead the last few pages of chapter 61 show Asuka already in hospital in the state we see her in, in episode 24. Ritsuko explains her damaged psyche to Shinji as he visits. Misato tells Kaworu he's now a pilot effective immediately.
The scene with Ritsuko's phone call with her grandmother has already happened (chapter 56)
The scene with SEELE and Gendo is the same, but then SEELE talk to Kaworu.
Shinji visits Asuka again, Rei and Kaworu meet similar to ep 24, but they meet again later when she is Rei III.
The sync test from ep 24 happens and then the shower scene.
Shinji and Rei have a talk and Shinji wonders if he can get closer than they already are remembering when she asked to hold his hand.
Misato discussion about Kaworu (from ep 24) still happens in a car, but she's driving and then spots the angel.
Obviously Asuka is out of the picture so Kaworu takes her place and he gets a chain saw!
The angel enters Rei, but with a slight difference of it splitting into multiple tendrils.
The scene between Rei and the angel is the same apart from the angel goads Rei about the fact that Shinji keeps visiting Asuka.
Kaworu is having a hard time and manages to saw the leg off of Unit 02.
Shinji deploys the same, but actually stabs the angel in its Rei form, but the angel still grabs Unit 01.
Reis sacrifice is the same.
As is the scene with Ritsuko and the containment team.
The next SEELE scene is the same.
Ritsuko looking at the photo was also part of chapter 56 earlier.
Instead of the scene with Shinji and Misato, Shinji is stating with Kaworu. Misato in the meantime isn't rejected by Pen-Pen, but still berates herself for being a poor guardian.
The scene with Gendo and Fuyutsuki with Rei III in the tube is missing.
Misato gets the same call about Rei and then calls Shinji.
In the hospital Rei has the same line about being the third one, but we see Shinji ask what see means before Ritsuko ushers her away.
Gendo and Fuyutsuki discuss SEELE and Ritsuko.
Added stuff includes Ritsuko complaining about Rei then being accosted by a man in black.
Then Kaworu is on his own in his room. Shinji asks Misato the same question about Rei being the third, as Misato thinks about what Ritsuko is up to.
In a slight change of order we see Ritsuko with SEELE before Rei's scene at home.
And then comes the backstory of Ritsuko's mothers death.
The discovery of the microchip that Ryoji slipped to Misato was already done in chapter 55.
Ritsuko's call to Shinji is specific about what she wants.
Misato showing up with a gun on Ritsuko and Ritsuko saying he has to come too is the same.
The next few scenes of Rei's birthplace, the dumping ground and the dummy system clones is pretty much the same, but the facts are laid out much more clearly including Rei's birth place is exactly where Shinji's mother died and her heart/soul was salvaged and the true nature of the EVAs.
As Kaworu turned up earlier (chapter 57) obviously some of the events of this episode is different (I'll do a separate discussion about him in the manga). The events of the first half are in a different order, but the second half is mostly the same.
The Asuka scenes are gone, as is the related Misato scene.
Instead we see Misato musing on all that she's learnt.
Then the Kaworu and Rei scene, this being the second meeting Kaworu references the first time, but Rei doesn't remember.
Next we're with Shinji. The part with him and Unit 02 is gone.
He's on the edge of the lake where he meets Kaworu for the first time in the anime, but obviously this has already happened elsewhere in the manga. He receives a goodbye message from Aida and then Kaworu turns up.
Then comes the scene between Gendo and Ritsuko.
The shower scene has already happened.
The manga goes straight into another scene with Gendo in front of Unit 02 in which he swallows ADAM!
The why am I alive scene with Rei is gone.
Shinji and Kaworu in his room has already happened.
SEELEs meeting with Kaworu standing on an angel is the same, but with the elements of the SEELE scene where they say Gendo has betrayed them.
Then the scenes with Misato of her spying on Kaworu and then talking with Ritsuko are pretty much the same, although Ritsuko reveals Kaworus true nature and the fact that the team that caused the Second Impact were trying the seal ADAM back in its egg and that as part of their experiments they used human genes!
Then comes Kaworus attack with extended talk at the end.
Afterwards Shinji is in bed and Misato tries to comfort him.
Then we get the scene where she tells Pen-Pen that she will have to send him away.
Then right at the start of chapter 75 is a scene with Shinji and Misato going to NERV in the car and she talks about humans and relationships as Shinji thinks about Kaworu.
Instead we see Misato musing on all that she's learnt.
Then the Kaworu and Rei scene, this being the second meeting Kaworu references the first time, but Rei doesn't remember.
Next we're with Shinji. The part with him and Unit 02 is gone.
He's on the edge of the lake where he meets Kaworu for the first time in the anime, but obviously this has already happened elsewhere in the manga. He receives a goodbye message from Aida and then Kaworu turns up.
Then comes the scene between Gendo and Ritsuko.
The shower scene has already happened.
The manga goes straight into another scene with Gendo in front of Unit 02 in which he swallows ADAM!
The why am I alive scene with Rei is gone.
Shinji and Kaworu in his room has already happened.
SEELEs meeting with Kaworu standing on an angel is the same, but with the elements of the SEELE scene where they say Gendo has betrayed them.
Then the scenes with Misato of her spying on Kaworu and then talking with Ritsuko are pretty much the same, although Ritsuko reveals Kaworus true nature and the fact that the team that caused the Second Impact were trying the seal ADAM back in its egg and that as part of their experiments they used human genes!
Then comes Kaworus attack with extended talk at the end.
Afterwards Shinji is in bed and Misato tries to comfort him.
Then we get the scene where she tells Pen-Pen that she will have to send him away.
Then right at the start of chapter 75 is a scene with Shinji and Misato going to NERV in the car and she talks about humans and relationships as Shinji thinks about Kaworu.
Episodes 25&26
And here we are again. When I originally saw the last couple of episodes for Eva, I was in the middle of a bad bout of flu, so my memory of it isn't the best, but what surprises me coming back to the TV end is how explicitly it states that this is the instrumentality project. Maybe it's just the effect of reading so much about the show over the years, but I remembered it all being more obscure somehow.
There's some interesting beats in the execution, both in the framing of the episodes like a stage play (have they ever commented on whether this was referencing something specific?) and the naively sketched parts of 26, which I thought briefly resembled Duck Amuck, the famously meta Looney Tunes cartoon where Daffy rants at an unseen animator to change the world around him as he sees fit. For everyone who spent 26 weeks watching the series, we even get a little taste of what else you could have been watching in the ‘alternate timeline’ scene near the end. I did kind of miss ADV’s brilliantly cringey “Are you riding his baloney pony?” line this time though.
Given the vast numbers of people who identify with Shinji, what interested me most on this viewing, however, was how much the show seems to be speaking directly to that part of the audience. Presumably Anno and co had a fair idea of how folk were responding to Evangelion by this point, so it’s a brave move to attempt what feels like such a therapeutic send off. “Here’s you, here’s what other people think of you, but look at what they think of each other! Maybe what you’re feeling is what a lot of other people feel. Maybe it’ll all be okay”.
The finale is probably the only time I’ve really missed having Fly Me to the Moon as the ED though - following the ‘Congratulations’ scene with the ominous snatch of Rei’s theme kind of undermines it.
Although perhaps not as much as this.
And here we are again. When I originally saw the last couple of episodes for Eva, I was in the middle of a bad bout of flu, so my memory of it isn't the best, but what surprises me coming back to the TV end is how explicitly it states that this is the instrumentality project. Maybe it's just the effect of reading so much about the show over the years, but I remembered it all being more obscure somehow.
There's some interesting beats in the execution, both in the framing of the episodes like a stage play (have they ever commented on whether this was referencing something specific?) and the naively sketched parts of 26, which I thought briefly resembled Duck Amuck, the famously meta Looney Tunes cartoon where Daffy rants at an unseen animator to change the world around him as he sees fit. For everyone who spent 26 weeks watching the series, we even get a little taste of what else you could have been watching in the ‘alternate timeline’ scene near the end. I did kind of miss ADV’s brilliantly cringey “Are you riding his baloney pony?” line this time though.
Given the vast numbers of people who identify with Shinji, what interested me most on this viewing, however, was how much the show seems to be speaking directly to that part of the audience. Presumably Anno and co had a fair idea of how folk were responding to Evangelion by this point, so it’s a brave move to attempt what feels like such a therapeutic send off. “Here’s you, here’s what other people think of you, but look at what they think of each other! Maybe what you’re feeling is what a lot of other people feel. Maybe it’ll all be okay”.
The finale is probably the only time I’ve really missed having Fly Me to the Moon as the ED though - following the ‘Congratulations’ scene with the ominous snatch of Rei’s theme kind of undermines it.
Although perhaps not as much as this.
D1tchd1gger
Shrine Maiden
Kaworu (Tabris)
He is treated quite differently to the anime by turning up early and having more interactions with Shinji. The moments from the anime are very similar in scene, but at the same time different in the way they interact, very inquisitive but also fairly insensitive/calculated. Although ultimately his role is the same in that he pushes Shinji to the very edge.
He is treated quite differently to the anime by turning up early and having more interactions with Shinji. The moments from the anime are very similar in scene, but at the same time different in the way they interact, very inquisitive but also fairly insensitive/calculated. Although ultimately his role is the same in that he pushes Shinji to the very edge.
We first see him after the events of the anime where Unit 01 eats an Angel and Shinji is trapped inside.
SEELE in their last appearance in human form (The Committee) assess the damage and wonder why the "bell" didn't ring. Then they say even if the "bell" does ring it time to strike as their trump is revealed in a tube similar to Rei's, Tabris.
We next see him after Shinji has returned. Misato tells him to go to school, but he wonders around the rubble of the city. He finds a kitten and then he hears music coming from a ruined church. It's Kaworu who asks Shinji what the music he's playing is called (he heard it earlier, so appears really good at picking up music and reproducing it). It's Ode to Joy!
Kaworu seeing Shinji's school outfit tells him to take him there as he's lost.
Shinji puts the kitten down and tells it to stop following him as he can't help it. Kaworus response to this is to pick it up and strangle it to death!
Shinji asks why, to which Kaworu matter-of-factly explains that as Shinji couldn't help it, it would have died of starvation without its mother and that killing it was ultimately the kinder thing to do!
Shinji internally says this meeting feels the same as when he met Rei.
He then ask who Kaworu is, who then fully introduces himself as the fifth child.
They arrive at school, but Shinji bottles out of going after spotting Aida and Hikari. Kaworu stares up and Aida thinks to himself that there is something creepy and inhuman about Kaworu.
Kaworu asks Shinji why he's not going in and Shinji says it's none of his business and that he's shown him the school. Kaworu then says that he's changed his mind and he wants Shinji to show him NERV (at this point Kaworu is really close to Shinji who thinks to himself "why is he so close"), he wants to see his EVA as soon as possible (there is no spare EVA, so maybe he knows the next Angel attack will take out Asuka?)
In NERV Shinji has lost Kaworu and Asuka is talking to herself in the ladies room. Kaworu shows up and Asuka calls him a pervert, which puzzles Kaworu. He then delivers Rei's line from the show about opening your heart to the EVA. Things get heated and Shinji steps between them, putting a hand on both. Misato then finds them and tells Kaworu to leave.
The Angel attacks and the boys end up in the command centre. As the Angel attacks Kaworu remarks that things are getting interesting. Shinji reacts by shouting and grabbing Kaworu.
After Unit 02 shuts down Shinji asks if he can go rescue Asuka. Kaworu says he can't as he'll end up like her and then says he asks why he's so upset. Gendo agrees and sends Rei to "retrieve the spear". Kaworu thinks to himself "the Spear of Longinus?" and "Do they truly dare use it without orders?"
After the spear throw and Asuka is retrieved Misato tells Kaworu he is to pilot Unit 02.
After SEELE talk to Gendo they then ask Kaworu why he didn't tell them about Gendo using the spear, to which he says it was too sudden and if he acted he would have blown his cover. They tell him that he must report stuff like that immediately.
Kaworu then says he been watching Shinji as ordered and says humans are strange by getting mad and frantic on the behalf of others and worry about other people. SEELE 01 says that once the plan is executed "it is from that which we shall all be set free."
Kaworu next encounters Rei and says they are the same, to which Rei says we might be similar, but not the same.
After the sync test Shinji is taking a shower and Kaworu steps into his booth asking for soap and is very close! Shinji tells him to keep away. Kaworu finds this odd that he doesn't like him close, but then lays a hand on him when upset. Shinji says it's normal and that it's uncomfortable when someone you don't like comes closer than necessary. Shinji leaves and wonder what make Kaworu tick and that he's been exploited by him ever since they met. (So a completely different outcome to the same (similar) scene in the show)
The next Angel attacks and Kaworu sees some action, and although an Angel himself seems to be right into the fight. Unit 02 also gets penetrated and he seems to receive Reis feelings as he starts crying.
After Rei's sacrifice we find Shinji in the locker room. Kaworu turns up and seeing Shinji upset asks is it about the First, she was a fool! this triggers Shinji who grabs and shouts at Kaworu, then threatens to punch him before fainting as he attempts just that and falls into Kaworu's arms who wonders what he should do.
He's taken Shinji to his room. We see a doctor leave. Kaworu tells Shinji that the doctor told him to rest and that Misato has been informed that Shinji is in Kaworu's room.
Shinji then asks about Rei and says he saw what she did close at hand. Then he thinks on the moment she wanted to hold his hand and wonders what she thought of it. Then he sobs and says "I don't want to lose you."
Later Kaworu asks when Shinji's going to go home to which Shinji replies that he can't face anyone as the truth of Rei's death will hit home and that Kaworu is the only who doesn't care so it's easier to stay. Kaworu says "so even though you hate me it is more comfortable here? Very well you can take half the bed."
Later that night Shinji starts having breathing problems and Kaworu wonders what to do and thinks about needing a bag. He instead performs mouth to mouth, but possibly lingers a bit long. Shinji is shocked, but now breathing properly. Kaworu then starts to talk about how it feels to fall in love and that he felt a strange sensation when in the Angel was in contact with both himself and Rei. He then wonders how he would feel if Shinji had feelings for him, to which Shinji says "guys don't like guys". Kaworu then asks "why do you hate me?" to which Shinji replies "because you're always so weird!" Then the phone rings. (so again very different to the same scene in the anime and brings in the theme of the bath scene, but in a very different way. Especially with Shinji's response.)
After Rei III makes an appearance Shinji leaves Kaworu's room with a sorry and a thank you leaving Kaworu thinking that Shinji is being self centred for leaving as soon as Rei is fine and then throws his magazine in anger. (seems to be setting up Kaworu as being more human than he initially seems)
Rei and Kaworu meet again. This time it is Rei that says we are the same, but Kaworu says we are made out of the same material but we are not the same due to the people we have spent time with. (suggesting that his time with Shinji has changed him and this Rei doesn't have that same experience)
At the lake Shinji bemoans all his friends leaving and Kaworu says how about me? He then goads Shinji "I'm all you have left" Asuka is "a doll" and Rei is "not the one you knew". Shinji doesn't respond and Kaworu grabs him and shout say something, to which he responds "I'm not going to be friends with you." He says he doesn't want any more because he keeps losing them, he wishes he'd never met met them and remained alone. Kaworu ask but what about me? To which Shinji says I told you before "I don't like you" and Kaworu replies what about now? Shinji asks him to please let him go and removes Kaworu's hand. (seems there might be feelings there, but Shinji has been so worn down by events he doesn't want to go through it again)
We now get the scene with Kaworu standing on the ruins with SEELE. They rant about Gendo taking over NERV and serving his own agenda and then spell out their own of changing the world by ridding it of the false successors born from the Black Moon (humanity being foolish capable of only hurting each other and lack of understanding of each other), by being reborn as the true successors from the White Moon. Kaworu holds his salvaged soul, but Gendo now has his regenerated flesh. They say that they now entrust their hope to Tabris. In a panel where he drawn with a mixed look on his face "This is the reason I exist in the first place."
Finally the attack comes "shall we go. Child of Adam". As Shinji screams WHY? after he is told to kill the Angel that looks like the human Kaworu Nagisa and "I hate this!" When he catches up he asks Kaworu why he tried to be his friend?
As Units 01 and 02 engage we get the same explanation as to how Kaworu can control Unit 02 from the outside.
Shinji then says he doesn't want to fight, to which Kaworu says but I thought you didn't like me.
Shinji can't penetrate the AT field and Kaworu explains that everyone has an AT field "A wall that everyone possesses in their heart."
After entering Heaven's Door Kaworu realises that it's not ADAM, but the Black Moon Lilith which has been there all along and the geofront was created when it first arrived and has been waiting for a successor to reach it. (this finally made it click with me what the geofront under NERV actually was, it's been mentioned before as well as the fact there was one under the Antarctica)
We now get an extended talk between Shinji and Kaworu which basically spells out a Catch-22 situation for Shinji. Can he kill an Angel if it looks like a human even if that Angel threatens the world, but if Kaworu goes ahead there would be a world within AT fields, war, and the sadness of losing people.
Shinji struggles, but says "I won't let you do it" and threatens to use the knife again which he knows won't work.
He reaches out to grab Kaworu who says he was created for this moment, but has his own free will and it is possible to defy fate. He says he would cease to exist either way as if he doesn't carry out his destiny the "old men" wouldn't hesitate to destroy him anyway, so he want Shinji to kill him instead "like the cat." Kaworu says that this is his last request and that if Shinji felt anything for him he would grant him his request.
Shinji still can't do it and Kaworu goads him again by saying "You're afraid of being tortured by guilt" you think little of me, you hate me that much. Shinji replies he never said he hated him. Kaworu then says the next thing you do is proof of what you think of me.
As Unit 01s grip tightens Kaworu goads again "That's right no weapons. You're going to remember how it feels to kill me with your bare hands." You'll never forget just like with all the others, for sure.
The hands tighten further so we don't see the final moments, but we get a dream like image of Shinji strangling Kaworu in a field outside the church where they first met just as Kaworu had strangled the kitten.
SEELE in their last appearance in human form (The Committee) assess the damage and wonder why the "bell" didn't ring. Then they say even if the "bell" does ring it time to strike as their trump is revealed in a tube similar to Rei's, Tabris.
We next see him after Shinji has returned. Misato tells him to go to school, but he wonders around the rubble of the city. He finds a kitten and then he hears music coming from a ruined church. It's Kaworu who asks Shinji what the music he's playing is called (he heard it earlier, so appears really good at picking up music and reproducing it). It's Ode to Joy!
Kaworu seeing Shinji's school outfit tells him to take him there as he's lost.
Shinji puts the kitten down and tells it to stop following him as he can't help it. Kaworus response to this is to pick it up and strangle it to death!
Shinji asks why, to which Kaworu matter-of-factly explains that as Shinji couldn't help it, it would have died of starvation without its mother and that killing it was ultimately the kinder thing to do!
Shinji internally says this meeting feels the same as when he met Rei.
He then ask who Kaworu is, who then fully introduces himself as the fifth child.
They arrive at school, but Shinji bottles out of going after spotting Aida and Hikari. Kaworu stares up and Aida thinks to himself that there is something creepy and inhuman about Kaworu.
Kaworu asks Shinji why he's not going in and Shinji says it's none of his business and that he's shown him the school. Kaworu then says that he's changed his mind and he wants Shinji to show him NERV (at this point Kaworu is really close to Shinji who thinks to himself "why is he so close"), he wants to see his EVA as soon as possible (there is no spare EVA, so maybe he knows the next Angel attack will take out Asuka?)
In NERV Shinji has lost Kaworu and Asuka is talking to herself in the ladies room. Kaworu shows up and Asuka calls him a pervert, which puzzles Kaworu. He then delivers Rei's line from the show about opening your heart to the EVA. Things get heated and Shinji steps between them, putting a hand on both. Misato then finds them and tells Kaworu to leave.
The Angel attacks and the boys end up in the command centre. As the Angel attacks Kaworu remarks that things are getting interesting. Shinji reacts by shouting and grabbing Kaworu.
After Unit 02 shuts down Shinji asks if he can go rescue Asuka. Kaworu says he can't as he'll end up like her and then says he asks why he's so upset. Gendo agrees and sends Rei to "retrieve the spear". Kaworu thinks to himself "the Spear of Longinus?" and "Do they truly dare use it without orders?"
After the spear throw and Asuka is retrieved Misato tells Kaworu he is to pilot Unit 02.
After SEELE talk to Gendo they then ask Kaworu why he didn't tell them about Gendo using the spear, to which he says it was too sudden and if he acted he would have blown his cover. They tell him that he must report stuff like that immediately.
Kaworu then says he been watching Shinji as ordered and says humans are strange by getting mad and frantic on the behalf of others and worry about other people. SEELE 01 says that once the plan is executed "it is from that which we shall all be set free."
Kaworu next encounters Rei and says they are the same, to which Rei says we might be similar, but not the same.
After the sync test Shinji is taking a shower and Kaworu steps into his booth asking for soap and is very close! Shinji tells him to keep away. Kaworu finds this odd that he doesn't like him close, but then lays a hand on him when upset. Shinji says it's normal and that it's uncomfortable when someone you don't like comes closer than necessary. Shinji leaves and wonder what make Kaworu tick and that he's been exploited by him ever since they met. (So a completely different outcome to the same (similar) scene in the show)
The next Angel attacks and Kaworu sees some action, and although an Angel himself seems to be right into the fight. Unit 02 also gets penetrated and he seems to receive Reis feelings as he starts crying.
After Rei's sacrifice we find Shinji in the locker room. Kaworu turns up and seeing Shinji upset asks is it about the First, she was a fool! this triggers Shinji who grabs and shouts at Kaworu, then threatens to punch him before fainting as he attempts just that and falls into Kaworu's arms who wonders what he should do.
He's taken Shinji to his room. We see a doctor leave. Kaworu tells Shinji that the doctor told him to rest and that Misato has been informed that Shinji is in Kaworu's room.
Shinji then asks about Rei and says he saw what she did close at hand. Then he thinks on the moment she wanted to hold his hand and wonders what she thought of it. Then he sobs and says "I don't want to lose you."
Later Kaworu asks when Shinji's going to go home to which Shinji replies that he can't face anyone as the truth of Rei's death will hit home and that Kaworu is the only who doesn't care so it's easier to stay. Kaworu says "so even though you hate me it is more comfortable here? Very well you can take half the bed."
Later that night Shinji starts having breathing problems and Kaworu wonders what to do and thinks about needing a bag. He instead performs mouth to mouth, but possibly lingers a bit long. Shinji is shocked, but now breathing properly. Kaworu then starts to talk about how it feels to fall in love and that he felt a strange sensation when in the Angel was in contact with both himself and Rei. He then wonders how he would feel if Shinji had feelings for him, to which Shinji says "guys don't like guys". Kaworu then asks "why do you hate me?" to which Shinji replies "because you're always so weird!" Then the phone rings. (so again very different to the same scene in the anime and brings in the theme of the bath scene, but in a very different way. Especially with Shinji's response.)
After Rei III makes an appearance Shinji leaves Kaworu's room with a sorry and a thank you leaving Kaworu thinking that Shinji is being self centred for leaving as soon as Rei is fine and then throws his magazine in anger. (seems to be setting up Kaworu as being more human than he initially seems)
Rei and Kaworu meet again. This time it is Rei that says we are the same, but Kaworu says we are made out of the same material but we are not the same due to the people we have spent time with. (suggesting that his time with Shinji has changed him and this Rei doesn't have that same experience)
At the lake Shinji bemoans all his friends leaving and Kaworu says how about me? He then goads Shinji "I'm all you have left" Asuka is "a doll" and Rei is "not the one you knew". Shinji doesn't respond and Kaworu grabs him and shout say something, to which he responds "I'm not going to be friends with you." He says he doesn't want any more because he keeps losing them, he wishes he'd never met met them and remained alone. Kaworu ask but what about me? To which Shinji says I told you before "I don't like you" and Kaworu replies what about now? Shinji asks him to please let him go and removes Kaworu's hand. (seems there might be feelings there, but Shinji has been so worn down by events he doesn't want to go through it again)
We now get the scene with Kaworu standing on the ruins with SEELE. They rant about Gendo taking over NERV and serving his own agenda and then spell out their own of changing the world by ridding it of the false successors born from the Black Moon (humanity being foolish capable of only hurting each other and lack of understanding of each other), by being reborn as the true successors from the White Moon. Kaworu holds his salvaged soul, but Gendo now has his regenerated flesh. They say that they now entrust their hope to Tabris. In a panel where he drawn with a mixed look on his face "This is the reason I exist in the first place."
Finally the attack comes "shall we go. Child of Adam". As Shinji screams WHY? after he is told to kill the Angel that looks like the human Kaworu Nagisa and "I hate this!" When he catches up he asks Kaworu why he tried to be his friend?
As Units 01 and 02 engage we get the same explanation as to how Kaworu can control Unit 02 from the outside.
Shinji then says he doesn't want to fight, to which Kaworu says but I thought you didn't like me.
Shinji can't penetrate the AT field and Kaworu explains that everyone has an AT field "A wall that everyone possesses in their heart."
After entering Heaven's Door Kaworu realises that it's not ADAM, but the Black Moon Lilith which has been there all along and the geofront was created when it first arrived and has been waiting for a successor to reach it. (this finally made it click with me what the geofront under NERV actually was, it's been mentioned before as well as the fact there was one under the Antarctica)
We now get an extended talk between Shinji and Kaworu which basically spells out a Catch-22 situation for Shinji. Can he kill an Angel if it looks like a human even if that Angel threatens the world, but if Kaworu goes ahead there would be a world within AT fields, war, and the sadness of losing people.
Shinji struggles, but says "I won't let you do it" and threatens to use the knife again which he knows won't work.
He reaches out to grab Kaworu who says he was created for this moment, but has his own free will and it is possible to defy fate. He says he would cease to exist either way as if he doesn't carry out his destiny the "old men" wouldn't hesitate to destroy him anyway, so he want Shinji to kill him instead "like the cat." Kaworu says that this is his last request and that if Shinji felt anything for him he would grant him his request.
Shinji still can't do it and Kaworu goads him again by saying "You're afraid of being tortured by guilt" you think little of me, you hate me that much. Shinji replies he never said he hated him. Kaworu then says the next thing you do is proof of what you think of me.
As Unit 01s grip tightens Kaworu goads again "That's right no weapons. You're going to remember how it feels to kill me with your bare hands." You'll never forget just like with all the others, for sure.
The hands tighten further so we don't see the final moments, but we get a dream like image of Shinji strangling Kaworu in a field outside the church where they first met just as Kaworu had strangled the kitten.
WMD
Guild Member
End of Evangelion
Well I understand why I've always hated Shinji Ikari. He sucks so bad in this. The jacking it over Asuka is so stupid and feels like it's there just to shock you. Shinji wouldn't even kiss a sleeping Asuka, I dont buy he'd react like that. Also the ending is so bleak. Why go back to strangling Asuka? Did he learn nothing during instrumentality? Also the level of self pitying he was going through throughout was annoying. He sits there with no reaction as Asuka is mauled even though he can hear on the speakers what's happening then chooses to flip out when he sees the mangled Eva.
Anyway I did enjoy the way they presented Asuka having her 'I dont want to die' moment and then going into a rampage. The flashing images of her break down that essentially flip a switch in her mind was great and the action that followed was really well animated.
Rei making a choice on her own to go to Shinji rather than always do what Gendo wants was great to see. In that moment she goes from only validating herself through Gendos eyes to actually having her own point of view. It's a good end to her character arc that's been building all series.
Visually it was great but ultimately I prefer the way the series ended. It presented the ideas in a more interesting and thoughtful way than EoE and gives Shinji a much "happier" ending which I felt he had earned.
Well I understand why I've always hated Shinji Ikari. He sucks so bad in this. The jacking it over Asuka is so stupid and feels like it's there just to shock you. Shinji wouldn't even kiss a sleeping Asuka, I dont buy he'd react like that. Also the ending is so bleak. Why go back to strangling Asuka? Did he learn nothing during instrumentality? Also the level of self pitying he was going through throughout was annoying. He sits there with no reaction as Asuka is mauled even though he can hear on the speakers what's happening then chooses to flip out when he sees the mangled Eva.
Anyway I did enjoy the way they presented Asuka having her 'I dont want to die' moment and then going into a rampage. The flashing images of her break down that essentially flip a switch in her mind was great and the action that followed was really well animated.
Rei making a choice on her own to go to Shinji rather than always do what Gendo wants was great to see. In that moment she goes from only validating herself through Gendos eyes to actually having her own point of view. It's a good end to her character arc that's been building all series.
Visually it was great but ultimately I prefer the way the series ended. It presented the ideas in a more interesting and thoughtful way than EoE and gives Shinji a much "happier" ending which I felt he had earned.
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Captaaainuniverse
Time-Traveller
I forgot to watch it 
hopefully my brother lets me watch it soon
hopefully my brother lets me watch it soon
End of Evangelion
Wew, that was a thing. Not gonna lie, I wasn't keen to watch this again and if Netflix hadn't picked up the film, it's possible I would never have revisited it. I remember EoE being quite an emotionally gruelling experience, and time has not diminished that. There's so much physical and mental trauma inflicted upon the characters in the second half of the series that I think the TV ending offers a welcome respite from it all; EoE just turns everything up to 11, as if it wasn't there already. Whereas before, instrumentality was benign and introspective, here it feels mad and violent and thoroughly apocalyptic, at least until the final reel. It left me feeling like that one incidental character who survives to the end of something, purely because no-one remembered to kill them off.
Nevertheless, I do feel like I can appreciate the film a lot more now. It's an excellent piece of animation, with some impressively weird imagery towards the end. Even knowing exactly where it's going and how it all ends, I still found myself flinching and holding my breath during the action scenes too. Asuka's battle against the production series Evas being the obvious standout, with an impressive sense of scale from the surrounding scenery getting knocked around as she tears into their weird, Geiger-esque bodies.
On the whole, I think EoE is somewhat more direct in its storytelling than the series was, it doesn't feel like there's anything so wilfully veiled in metaphor here, but a few small details did stand out to me. Misato's line, "Live your life standing up, then you can die" caught my attention, as I wondered if this had originally been intended to recall Pancho Villa's apocryphal last words "Better to die on your feet, than live on your knees", albeit perhaps lost in translation.
I remembered Ritsuko having a larger role in the film than she actually gets here, but her death scene is still a doozy - a proper film noir exit, complete with unheard dialogue from Gendo. It seems oddly fitting that she falls into the LCL at the end, given that iirc, her first appearance in the series is when she's been diving in one of the Eva containment tanks (in itself, a curious little detail that's never returned to). Although it's never seen clearly, during the raid, Maya is also clutching what looks like the same pink cat cushion she had earlier in the series, perhaps a stand-in for Ritsuko. Strangely, I'd completely blanked the scene of Rei taking Ritsuko's form to comfort Maya in her final moments, until someone mentioned it to me a few months ago. Maya's apparently romantic interest in her is so low-key that its reveal here seems somewhat out of the blue, but I think it's nice in a way that even the minor characters can have a secret inner life that we're not aware of.
I'd be curious to know if anyone else has thoughts on Gendo's final moments. It's interesting that he finally admits he was afraid to try and be a father to Shinji, as Yui berates him for hiding behind a wall - as much as it finally provides some insight into his personality, it seems both a little too late and also at odds with his treatment of Shinji during the series.
Spare a thought for poor Aoba too. Hyuga at least has a little character development in terms of his unrealised affection for Misato, manifested in Rei taking her form as he is absorbed into the LCL, but Aoba gets no such luxury. I think the supplementary materials suggest he has some romantic interest in Maya, but rather than a vision of her, he is simply consumed by the many Reis. Given that I think it's also suggested he's a gun nut (note that he is the only operator with a machinegun), is it grim to suggest it could have been better for dramatic purposes if he'd chosen to shoot himself at the end, rather than be swallowed up?
In my (relative) innocence when I first saw the film, I actually didn't realise that Shinji was engaging in some 'capricious onanism', as I think Zinki once put it, but I don't know. It doesn't seem beyond the pail to me that his mental state has deteriorated to such a desperate level by this point. It didn't occur to me while watching the film, but I do kind of agree that his inability to come to Asuka's aid until its too late feels like a bit of a contrivance.
Also agreed. It's like she's finally asserted that she is a person in her own right, rather than a stand-in for Yui. I think there's a nice bit of foreshadowing for this near the start in the shot of her having finally smashed Gendo's glasses too.
Oh, and I rather suspect this is a known Easter egg, but did anyone look closely at what Misato was reading on her computer screen when she had hacked into the system?
Wew, that was a thing. Not gonna lie, I wasn't keen to watch this again and if Netflix hadn't picked up the film, it's possible I would never have revisited it. I remember EoE being quite an emotionally gruelling experience, and time has not diminished that. There's so much physical and mental trauma inflicted upon the characters in the second half of the series that I think the TV ending offers a welcome respite from it all; EoE just turns everything up to 11, as if it wasn't there already. Whereas before, instrumentality was benign and introspective, here it feels mad and violent and thoroughly apocalyptic, at least until the final reel. It left me feeling like that one incidental character who survives to the end of something, purely because no-one remembered to kill them off.
Nevertheless, I do feel like I can appreciate the film a lot more now. It's an excellent piece of animation, with some impressively weird imagery towards the end. Even knowing exactly where it's going and how it all ends, I still found myself flinching and holding my breath during the action scenes too. Asuka's battle against the production series Evas being the obvious standout, with an impressive sense of scale from the surrounding scenery getting knocked around as she tears into their weird, Geiger-esque bodies.
On the whole, I think EoE is somewhat more direct in its storytelling than the series was, it doesn't feel like there's anything so wilfully veiled in metaphor here, but a few small details did stand out to me. Misato's line, "Live your life standing up, then you can die" caught my attention, as I wondered if this had originally been intended to recall Pancho Villa's apocryphal last words "Better to die on your feet, than live on your knees", albeit perhaps lost in translation.
I remembered Ritsuko having a larger role in the film than she actually gets here, but her death scene is still a doozy - a proper film noir exit, complete with unheard dialogue from Gendo. It seems oddly fitting that she falls into the LCL at the end, given that iirc, her first appearance in the series is when she's been diving in one of the Eva containment tanks (in itself, a curious little detail that's never returned to). Although it's never seen clearly, during the raid, Maya is also clutching what looks like the same pink cat cushion she had earlier in the series, perhaps a stand-in for Ritsuko. Strangely, I'd completely blanked the scene of Rei taking Ritsuko's form to comfort Maya in her final moments, until someone mentioned it to me a few months ago. Maya's apparently romantic interest in her is so low-key that its reveal here seems somewhat out of the blue, but I think it's nice in a way that even the minor characters can have a secret inner life that we're not aware of.
I'd be curious to know if anyone else has thoughts on Gendo's final moments. It's interesting that he finally admits he was afraid to try and be a father to Shinji, as Yui berates him for hiding behind a wall - as much as it finally provides some insight into his personality, it seems both a little too late and also at odds with his treatment of Shinji during the series.
Spare a thought for poor Aoba too. Hyuga at least has a little character development in terms of his unrealised affection for Misato, manifested in Rei taking her form as he is absorbed into the LCL, but Aoba gets no such luxury. I think the supplementary materials suggest he has some romantic interest in Maya, but rather than a vision of her, he is simply consumed by the many Reis. Given that I think it's also suggested he's a gun nut (note that he is the only operator with a machinegun), is it grim to suggest it could have been better for dramatic purposes if he'd chosen to shoot himself at the end, rather than be swallowed up?
In my (relative) innocence when I first saw the film, I actually didn't realise that Shinji was engaging in some 'capricious onanism', as I think Zinki once put it, but I don't know. It doesn't seem beyond the pail to me that his mental state has deteriorated to such a desperate level by this point. It didn't occur to me while watching the film, but I do kind of agree that his inability to come to Asuka's aid until its too late feels like a bit of a contrivance.
Also agreed. It's like she's finally asserted that she is a person in her own right, rather than a stand-in for Yui. I think there's a nice bit of foreshadowing for this near the start in the shot of her having finally smashed Gendo's glasses too.
Oh, and I rather suspect this is a known Easter egg, but did anyone look closely at what Misato was reading on her computer screen when she had hacked into the system?
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WMD
Guild Member
I think a big part of what annoys me about Shinji is that, to me anyway, I feel like he becomes plot driven. For a large part of the series we have gradual character growth occurring then in ep23 (I think it was) everyone is scared to tell him Toji is the new Eva pilot and I dont buy that that information would bother him and I dont buy that characters would be scared to tell him. Weve seen nothing to suggest it would and all the real damage is done because Shinji knows they are keeping a secret from him. It why that episode has to keep coming up with ways for Asuka to not tell him as even they knew she would just tell him straight away.
The whole way the show goes about regressing his character development at the end is acceptable in the show because the last two episodes give him his final epiphany to accept himself. Unfortunately EoE chooses to go against that and just regresses him back to ep 1 "woe is me" Shinji and it doesnt feel like hes learnt anything at the end.
Captaaainuniverse
Time-Traveller
It's the second paragraph ain't it? The one about a convention? The rest seems to be the connections of organisations (more prominently SEELE) in series
I can't write much about it since
1. Adding live action shots for seemingly no reason makes little sense
2. I'm lucky to get today off to watch it, I'll be in work early tomorrow
But I'll try...
Someone said something about the background looking phallic as a sexual metaphor in an earlier episode, but I think that's a bit of a stretch since shinji did reject the advance, but my stretch is in End in shinji's childhood flashback.
The natural layout of the background looks like a woman on her back, seen from between the legs, the sandpit and shinji's sand pyramid are obviously NERV, something shinji hates, the background image may just have a part sexual, part maternal image, something like the final form rei has and what is actually going on.
I'm not going to say rie's actual final form is a metaphor for anything as it's so unsubtle that it slaps you across the face with hands you really wanna put gloves on. Put it away, Rie!
I'm still gonna say the appearance of kaworu was more platonic, he is platonic in this series, shinji seems happy to see him as he's the guy who picked up the peices when shinji felt abandoned by everyone else. As I haven't seen anything but the series from EVA, I'm still taking other's words that kaworu is romantic with shinji in virtually everything else.
Shinji's rage and choice to kill everyone and the things said in the train scene I believe is something Anno writes about himself and what he was going through, I think I can relate to some of it too, having very few friends and doing things solely for myself for years now, I feel I don't want to understand other people and I don't want them to understand me - that is shinji's problem, it's also gendo's problem, they are remarkably similar but don't want to understand each other for the fear that it would hurt them.
I didn't get why asuka and shinji survived or why he tries to kill her when I watched it years ago, but now I think I know - they were both in EVAs when the third impact happened, after the third impact (when the sea is LCL) shinji sees Rei in her human form, she's only appeared next to people who die in both parts of End, so perhaps shinji thought she was supposed to die? Anyway, I'm thinking shinji doesn't have the fortitude to kill her and gets upset since, despite choosing to keep people separate for the somewhat fulfilling effort to understand one another, he's left with someone he finds difficult to understand
I can't write much about it since
1. Adding live action shots for seemingly no reason makes little sense
2. I'm lucky to get today off to watch it, I'll be in work early tomorrow
But I'll try...
Someone said something about the background looking phallic as a sexual metaphor in an earlier episode, but I think that's a bit of a stretch since shinji did reject the advance, but my stretch is in End in shinji's childhood flashback.
The natural layout of the background looks like a woman on her back, seen from between the legs, the sandpit and shinji's sand pyramid are obviously NERV, something shinji hates, the background image may just have a part sexual, part maternal image, something like the final form rei has and what is actually going on.
I'm not going to say rie's actual final form is a metaphor for anything as it's so unsubtle that it slaps you across the face with hands you really wanna put gloves on. Put it away, Rie!
I'm still gonna say the appearance of kaworu was more platonic, he is platonic in this series, shinji seems happy to see him as he's the guy who picked up the peices when shinji felt abandoned by everyone else. As I haven't seen anything but the series from EVA, I'm still taking other's words that kaworu is romantic with shinji in virtually everything else.
Shinji's rage and choice to kill everyone and the things said in the train scene I believe is something Anno writes about himself and what he was going through, I think I can relate to some of it too, having very few friends and doing things solely for myself for years now, I feel I don't want to understand other people and I don't want them to understand me - that is shinji's problem, it's also gendo's problem, they are remarkably similar but don't want to understand each other for the fear that it would hurt them.
I didn't get why asuka and shinji survived or why he tries to kill her when I watched it years ago, but now I think I know - they were both in EVAs when the third impact happened, after the third impact (when the sea is LCL) shinji sees Rei in her human form, she's only appeared next to people who die in both parts of End, so perhaps shinji thought she was supposed to die? Anyway, I'm thinking shinji doesn't have the fortitude to kill her and gets upset since, despite choosing to keep people separate for the somewhat fulfilling effort to understand one another, he's left with someone he finds difficult to understand
The big finale...
The End of Evangelion
This world is overflowing with sorrow. Its people are drowning in emptiness. Loneliness fills their hearts.
I'll always laugh now when Misato says "I see... So that's the truth behind Second Impact."
Gainax were behind it all along.
(Thanks for posting that image, Prof, because not all of it was readable on the DVD.)
As a side note, I've seen Sadamoto's manga ending and feel that it brings everything full circle in a more satisfying way than either of Anno's two accounts.
It turns out that, at the screenplay stage of EoE's production, there was an idea for Shinji to do what he does back in his room while thinking about Asuka:
I guess they did indeed go for the more shocking of the two in the end.
The End of Evangelion
This world is overflowing with sorrow. Its people are drowning in emptiness. Loneliness fills their hearts.
Yes, I did! And that was the first time I had!
I'll always laugh now when Misato says "I see... So that's the truth behind Second Impact."
Gainax were behind it all along.
(Thanks for posting that image, Prof, because not all of it was readable on the DVD.)
I guess it perhaps partly comes down to what you see first. The weird order I saw stuff in (Rebuild 2.0–1.0–3.0–D&R–EoE–NGE) means that that bleakness feels more in-keeping with the gradual downward spiral presented in the series to me. (I can't help but think that Rebuild is going to have a quite different tone to its conclusion, though...)
As a side note, I've seen Sadamoto's manga ending and feel that it brings everything full circle in a more satisfying way than either of Anno's two accounts.
I've never put those two events side by side in my thoughts before, but now that I have... I'd say that, perhaps (trying to tap into Shinji's mindset here), standing looking at Asuka while doing that doesn't require any actual interaction with her, whereas kissing her in her sleep would have. Also, Shinji's mental state wasn't nearly as damaged way back in episode 9 as it is by the time of EoE either.
It turns out that, at the screenplay stage of EoE's production, there was an idea for Shinji to do what he does back in his room while thinking about Asuka:
I guess they did indeed go for the more shocking of the two in the end.
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WMD
Guild Member
I'd have found that more in keeping with Shinjis innate nature to be honest. I also kind of feel like the deterioration of his mental state would make him less likely to do that. A big part of the story is that hes becoming withdrawn from everyone. He wouldn't stand there touching himself over Asuka when she could wake up or someone else could catch him. Having him scurry off to hide and do it would have been more believable and more in keeping with the theme of the film.