General Politics Thread
- Thread starter Watanabe Ken
- Start date
Vashdaman
Za Warudo
It's not all toxic though, there are people and grass roots movements out there really trying to make people's lives better, and everyone's lives, not just brits, but migrants lives too, "boat men"'s lives included. I mentioned him before in this thread, but I honestly struggle to imagine anyone listening to Corbyn speak and finding anything toxic in it. If you're tired of the toxicity, help people to fight against the actually toxic ones (like Farage) and build something better and more hopeful.
Anj
Completely Average High School Student
Not according to the degree I'm currently doing
ayase
State Alchemist
Not to ignore the relevant points some people have made on other topics, I will probably return to them in due course, but I feel a burning need to address the events of yesterday. As a resident of Middlesbrough until recently and someone with the dubious distinction of having the place on my birth certificate, I can tell people in no uncertain terms exactly who made life in Middlesbrough so miserable that I finally packed up and left as a direct result of their effect on my neighbourhood: Not the asylum seekers, who were dumped there by the government because housing is cheap and nobody in Westminster gave a sh*t about the place (I very much doubt that given the choice, any of them would have chosen to live there). Not the Muslims, who by and large I found to be decent people and neighbours, but the drugs gangs composed almost entirely of young white British men. The exact same kind of violent thugs with no respect for anyone else's rights or property, who will make anybody's life a misery to make themselves feel like big men as were involved in the violence yesterday and I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn they were the very same people. Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels indeed. In all honesty, I think Middlesbrough would have been massively improved overnight if the police had just mowed them all down with f*cking Bren guns. After being on the receiving end of these people's thuggery before I would quite happily have manned one myself without the slightest shred of remorse.
Kite
Pokémon Master
It's a bad state of affairs in the UK at the moment with protesting/riots from both sides of the political divide. Some idiotic 'far right' thugs who dream of living in Italy pre WW2 with dreams aligned to a certain Austrian chancellor of Germany from a similar era.
Things can only end badly, especially with the 2 tier policing where they seem to ignore some protests to focus heavily on others, shame the 'fast track' justice system can't be used to process that youngster who stabbed the girls in southport or the person who attempted to kill that army officer in gillingham.
Things can only end badly, especially with the 2 tier policing where they seem to ignore some protests to focus heavily on others, shame the 'fast track' justice system can't be used to process that youngster who stabbed the girls in southport or the person who attempted to kill that army officer in gillingham.
RadFemHedonist
Cardcaptor
Can you provide proof of that (the more than half thing)? DGMW while I disagree with you politically I have nothing against you and I do empathise with the difficulties you have had (you and your wife), I just think that's a rather big claim and does need some backing up.
BrokenPhoenix
Adventurer
Well, ethnic tensions in the UK was certainly not something I had on my 2024 bingo card. There was a gathering in Portsmouth, which included some counter-protestors, but it didn't kick off (thankfully) the way it has in other towns and cities.
I have to say though, Starmer's reaction and statements to all this have been hilariously bad. No attempt to have some introspection and think about why these tensions and protests may have arisen, he essentially says these are all "far-right thugs". This has only added fuel to the fire and shows incredibly poor tact from him and his party.
But I think @Dave1988 alludes to an interesting point. We saw a shift in Muslim voters away from Labour in the 2024 general election, which saw Labour lose seats in Dewsbury and Batley, Birmingham Perry Barr, and in Blackburn to independent candidates who stood on a Pro-Gaza platform (I've just seen @RadFemHedonist's comment whilst writing my comment, which actually ties nicely into this. I'm not sure how much of the Muslim vote makes up Labour's vote, but there were definitely shifts in the Muslim vote in the most recent general election).
Additionally:
Labour's "landslide" election victory is incredibly fragile. Labour increased their vote share from 2019 by a mere 1% and even dropped their vote share in Wales by 4%. The Tories have been incredibly bad for a decade and the right-wing vote was split by Reform UK, allowing Labour to just have to sit on their hands and not say anything stupid, to win. There is very little enthusiasm for Starmer's Labour party.
We now have a situation where people are being attacked on the street because of the colour of their skin (brown and white), in the UK, in 2024... and to be fair, this is largely the fault of the Tory party who handed over a huge backlog of asylum seeker applications to Labour and have handled immigration overall, very poorly. But now the Labour party need to do something.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again. The British people clearly think immigration into the country is too high and the electorate have voted for governments that have promised to reduce immigration.
Check out this YouGov poll - "Do Brits think that immigration has been too high or low in the last 10 years?"
Now, let me be clear, I do not agree with the way some protestors have gone about their business - setting buildings on fire, vandalising property, attacking people, and so on. There are also a small handful of racists and horrible people of that ilk taking advantage of the situation. However, we have swept this issue under the rug for far too long. We have been unable to have mature discussions about immigration in our parliament and crucially, we have had successive governments that have promised to reduce immigration but have not had the political will in reality to do so. This has resulted in a feeling that large numbers of voters have not been listened to.
The next five years are going to be interesting. If we get to 2029 and there's still a significant cost of living crisis, lots of people still can't afford to have kids or rent/buy a house, and if we're still relying on ~600,000 net migration a year, and thousands are still coming over on the boats from France to join the asylum backlog, then oh boy... expect a political shockwave in the next general election (Farage and his posse will be licking their lips).
Starmer needs to do something and he needs to do it quick. Make it easier for British families to have children (we need to get our birth rate up again), start training our own citizens in key areas of the economy so we can gradually wean ourselves off at least a portion of our immigration statistics. I'm no policy expert, but Labour need to at least appear they are doing something in regards to immigration. You can't just say "far-right thugs", arrest people, and sweep it under the carpet. That's a sure fire way for tensions to bubble away further.
Unfortunately, I don't think the current government have the balls to do anything meaningful - Starmer and his lieutenants are just more neoliberal yes-people in different coloured ties.
I have to say though, Starmer's reaction and statements to all this have been hilariously bad. No attempt to have some introspection and think about why these tensions and protests may have arisen, he essentially says these are all "far-right thugs". This has only added fuel to the fire and shows incredibly poor tact from him and his party.
But I think @Dave1988 alludes to an interesting point. We saw a shift in Muslim voters away from Labour in the 2024 general election, which saw Labour lose seats in Dewsbury and Batley, Birmingham Perry Barr, and in Blackburn to independent candidates who stood on a Pro-Gaza platform (I've just seen @RadFemHedonist's comment whilst writing my comment, which actually ties nicely into this. I'm not sure how much of the Muslim vote makes up Labour's vote, but there were definitely shifts in the Muslim vote in the most recent general election).
Additionally:
Labour's "landslide" election victory is incredibly fragile. Labour increased their vote share from 2019 by a mere 1% and even dropped their vote share in Wales by 4%. The Tories have been incredibly bad for a decade and the right-wing vote was split by Reform UK, allowing Labour to just have to sit on their hands and not say anything stupid, to win. There is very little enthusiasm for Starmer's Labour party.
We now have a situation where people are being attacked on the street because of the colour of their skin (brown and white), in the UK, in 2024... and to be fair, this is largely the fault of the Tory party who handed over a huge backlog of asylum seeker applications to Labour and have handled immigration overall, very poorly. But now the Labour party need to do something.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again. The British people clearly think immigration into the country is too high and the electorate have voted for governments that have promised to reduce immigration.
Check out this YouGov poll - "Do Brits think that immigration has been too high or low in the last 10 years?"
- 66% of respondents think immigration has been too high.
- 64% of women think immigration has been too high.
- 53% of those aged 18-24 think immigration has been too high.
- 71% of those who live in the Midlands think immigration has been too high.
- 67% in the North of England, 55% in Scotland, 64% in Wales, 71% in the South of England
- 44% of Labour voters think immigration has been too high.
- 49% of Remain voters think immigration has been too high.
- 55% of Londoners think immigration has been too high.
Now, let me be clear, I do not agree with the way some protestors have gone about their business - setting buildings on fire, vandalising property, attacking people, and so on. There are also a small handful of racists and horrible people of that ilk taking advantage of the situation. However, we have swept this issue under the rug for far too long. We have been unable to have mature discussions about immigration in our parliament and crucially, we have had successive governments that have promised to reduce immigration but have not had the political will in reality to do so. This has resulted in a feeling that large numbers of voters have not been listened to.
The next five years are going to be interesting. If we get to 2029 and there's still a significant cost of living crisis, lots of people still can't afford to have kids or rent/buy a house, and if we're still relying on ~600,000 net migration a year, and thousands are still coming over on the boats from France to join the asylum backlog, then oh boy... expect a political shockwave in the next general election (Farage and his posse will be licking their lips).
Starmer needs to do something and he needs to do it quick. Make it easier for British families to have children (we need to get our birth rate up again), start training our own citizens in key areas of the economy so we can gradually wean ourselves off at least a portion of our immigration statistics. I'm no policy expert, but Labour need to at least appear they are doing something in regards to immigration. You can't just say "far-right thugs", arrest people, and sweep it under the carpet. That's a sure fire way for tensions to bubble away further.
Unfortunately, I don't think the current government have the balls to do anything meaningful - Starmer and his lieutenants are just more neoliberal yes-people in different coloured ties.
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Dave1988
Pokémon Master
Starmer is a coward, his resonse is generic "its all far right thugs" same thing over and over again with him, the police are the same those
D1tchd1gger
Shrine Maiden
They lost 5 seats due to their stance on Gaza: Senior Labour figures admit stance on Gaza cost party seats
Think you need to stop reading The Daily Mail!
Just Passing Through
The Wildcard
While this thread has historically often gone to some difficult places, I have always believed in its purpose as long as all parties respect one another and keep the debates civil. The discourse over the last 24 hours has taken a swerve towards the unkind, and it's blindingly obvious that some people aren't listening to one another and are instead throwing out ad hominem attacks towards other posters in order to 'win' arguments by driving dissenting voices away.
This is AUKN, not a right wing echo chamber on other platforms, and that approach is not appropriate. You don't win civilised debates here by asserting your opponents' positions (correctly or incorrectly) then building up a straw man argument to make yourself seem right. We're better than that.
As a result, I am deleting some posts which - I feel - added nothing to the debate and were instead being used as flamebait.
If you have not had a warning about a post deletion, this does not apply to you. And I would like to formally state that I am not moderating based on stance - I strongly disagree with some of the posts which have not been moderated - but rather on tone. People who can debate their stances in a mature, respectful way will be allowed to continue as they always have. And people who decide to continue with the disrespect will find that it's far easier for me to Ban them than it is to continue offering the benefit of the doubt.
R
This is AUKN, not a right wing echo chamber on other platforms, and that approach is not appropriate. You don't win civilised debates here by asserting your opponents' positions (correctly or incorrectly) then building up a straw man argument to make yourself seem right. We're better than that.
As a result, I am deleting some posts which - I feel - added nothing to the debate and were instead being used as flamebait.
If you have not had a warning about a post deletion, this does not apply to you. And I would like to formally state that I am not moderating based on stance - I strongly disagree with some of the posts which have not been moderated - but rather on tone. People who can debate their stances in a mature, respectful way will be allowed to continue as they always have. And people who decide to continue with the disrespect will find that it's far easier for me to Ban them than it is to continue offering the benefit of the doubt.
R
BrokenPhoenix
Adventurer
I completely agree. It's only through mature and reasonable dialogue that we can come to try and understand each other's perspective and move forward together.
Anj
Completely Average High School Student
Absolutely right.
But whatever your political viewpoint, we surely must agree that the strongest message that has come out of all this craziness is the communities coming together to clean up the messes in their streets. That has filled my heart with pride amongst a sea of frustration.
But whatever your political viewpoint, we surely must agree that the strongest message that has come out of all this craziness is the communities coming together to clean up the messes in their streets. That has filled my heart with pride amongst a sea of frustration.
Well, that was unfortunate - though for those in the back who didn't hear me the first time, all opinions are welcome. The catch is that basic respect and a willingness to engage with - and listen to - others in good faith is a requirement of participation in the debate. I can't control the thugs on the streets but I'm not going to accept people behaving that way here.
For those who still don't get it, please do some reading up on the concept of the paradox of tolerance. All opinions are not equal here when one individual's opinions involve relentlessly attacking everyone who disagrees with them and putting words in other people's mouths.
(Since I hate leaving an accusation unaddressed, I also didn't vote Labour in the last election. But I didn't vote Reform either and I'd rather chew off my own hands than do so. Only one Reform voter got banned in this squabble, though, and there are others around. I have never banned anyone for 'not being left wing', but I have banned plenty of people for being jerks to their fellow human beings. If you want to draw conclusions there, that's 100% on you.)
Now, back to the politics.
R
For those who still don't get it, please do some reading up on the concept of the paradox of tolerance. All opinions are not equal here when one individual's opinions involve relentlessly attacking everyone who disagrees with them and putting words in other people's mouths.
(Since I hate leaving an accusation unaddressed, I also didn't vote Labour in the last election. But I didn't vote Reform either and I'd rather chew off my own hands than do so. Only one Reform voter got banned in this squabble, though, and there are others around. I have never banned anyone for 'not being left wing', but I have banned plenty of people for being jerks to their fellow human beings. If you want to draw conclusions there, that's 100% on you.)
Now, back to the politics.
R
Vashdaman
Za Warudo
As I've mentioned in previous posts, I think the only way to really stymie the rise of the far right, racism and bigotry is to start actually improving people's lives, everyone's lives. And I guess similarly to you I've long worried that a centrist Labour under Starmer that will do nothing to seriously address inequality and poverty and tinker around edges at best, will lead to a rise in the far right and plays in to the hands of Farage and his ilk. But I think you're vastly over-estimating how much the actual immigration numbers are really relevant or how much a reduction would quell what we're witnessing. Immigration is a scapegoat, it's an easily digestible narrative that's been deliberately spun for decades in our mainstream politics and media by the powerful in order manipulate the less well off, get them punching down instead of up. If Labour somehow cut immigration significantly, but it didn't lead to people's everyday lives tangibly improving, do you honestly believe things would be fixed? I said all this before in my other post, but still, Farage and his kind will always blame the "other", some more vulnerable section of society, they'll continue to stoke hatred and cultivate division and tribalism for their own gain. If not the "boat people" or legal migrants, it'll be the dole scroungers, the disabled, the queer, single mums, or the British born and raised ethnic communities that "haven't integrated enough". They'll always be enough foreigners to blame all of life's woes on.
Some of the people attending these "anti-immigration protests" might have valid points regarding the lack of affordable housing, crumbling public services etc, but they believe completely untrue things about migrants, You'll hear people complain about refugees and immigrants getting preferential access to council housing, benefits, the NHS. It's not true though and in fact it's mostly harder for them to gain access to any of that, but people still believe it anyway because they've been told these lies repeatedly all their lives and it's a simple and easy answer. And even when presenting people with the facts it's incredibly hard to change minds when everything else around them is reinforcing that view, from government to the mainstream media let alone social media. But I think it will be a mistake to attempt to pander to or satiate that misguided anger and bigotry, it will only ever play into the hands of the cynical manipulators. It would also clearly be a big mistake, in my opinion, to do what Labour has been doing lately to sit on the fence and trying to look like ever so slightly more respectable tories. The only solution I see is to actually stand for something, take a stand against the hatred and the lies and division and racism, try to change that narrative completely rather than feed it. That doesn't mean shutting down reasonable debate, but stop the scapegoating, stand up for and alongside migrants, and minorities, robustly and steadfastly, as well as the white working class. Call out the racists and hate mongers. And vitally, go after the super rich and start to redistribute wealth. They'll always be a few racists, but decent living conditions and equality would suck all the power out of these hateful movements.
Now this might all seem pie in sky to you, but I think that's our only hope. Do I think Labour under Starmer will do this? No I don't, but that's why I didn't vote for them.
And personally, I am completely comfortable to describe anyone attending these hate-fuelled, probably mostly racist rallies as far-right. Obviously having worries about immigration doesn't necessarily make you an extremist, but if in the current circumstances of violence being wantonly unleashed on the streets against innocent people who look the wrong shade you still feel compelled to join one of these "protests" in order presumably to stoke more fear and hatred, when people are already feeling very afraid as it is. Then yeah I think it's pretty fair to call someone far right. And it's obviously fair to call the racist thugs smashing stuff up racist thugs. These people are mostly just useful idiot boneheads sure, but if they don't want to be called far right or racists they shouldn't do far right and racist things!
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Just Passing Through
The Wildcard
I was going to question, given that Incitement to Race Hatred is a crime, why more people aren't arrested for it, is it that difficult to prove? Then I did a DuckDuckGo, and the first paragraph reads...
"For an offence to be committed under any of these sections of the Public Order Act 1986, there has to be one of the acts described therein: it has to be "threatening, abusive or insulting", and it has to be intended to or likely in all the circumstances to stir up racial hatred."
Threatening, abusive, or insulting. So as long as you have reasonable tone of voice, and choose your words with care, you can incite as much hatred as you can get away with.
Explains why Nigel Farage is the member of parliament serving the people of Clacton, instead of inside Belmarsh serving at his majesty's displeasure. For the last couple of days, I've been thinking that it would be a good idea just to switch Twitter off at this point in the UK. Especially with Musk sticking his oar into British politics now.
"For an offence to be committed under any of these sections of the Public Order Act 1986, there has to be one of the acts described therein: it has to be "threatening, abusive or insulting", and it has to be intended to or likely in all the circumstances to stir up racial hatred."
Threatening, abusive, or insulting. So as long as you have reasonable tone of voice, and choose your words with care, you can incite as much hatred as you can get away with.
Explains why Nigel Farage is the member of parliament serving the people of Clacton, instead of inside Belmarsh serving at his majesty's displeasure. For the last couple of days, I've been thinking that it would be a good idea just to switch Twitter off at this point in the UK. Especially with Musk sticking his oar into British politics now.
BrokenPhoenix
Adventurer
This is something we can definitely agree on. The way to reduce the influence and popularity of the far-right is to improve the lives of ordinary people. Far-right populism thrives during economic decline. However, I imagine we may disagree on some methods by which we go about improving people's lives.
I do agree with this. In the UK, the biggest divider has always been social class. I'm with you on the idea you're alluding to here, that those in power would want us to fight amongst ourselves to distract us from their corruption and so forth.
I agree in part with this. There will always be certain people who try and blame others for their woes. However, in my view, how much traction these people gain is always related to ordinary people's lived experience. It's no coincidence that a lot of these riots have kicked off in places where the government have placed asylum seekers in accommodation whilst they have their application processed - usually already poor and struggling northern English towns. Then, because of the backlog, more and more hotels and other types of accommodation in these rundown areas are used to house asylum seekers. Of course, this is no fault of the asylum seekers themselves.
One of the other issues this causes though is that it is very easy for people who are applying for asylum to vanish, which can very easily lead to abuse of our system. For instance, the Home Office lost contact with ~17,000 asylum applicants who had their applications withdrawn. Here's another article from the BBC stating the Home Office has lost contact with a further 5,600 asylum seekers from January this year.
Now I think most reasonable people are accepting of refugees and asylum seekers fleeing wars, political persecution, and so on. I am very much in favour of the UK protecting people from abroad who need our protection and doing our bit in that regard. However, who are these missing people that the Home Office has lost contact with? Are they genuine refugees and asylum seekers or are they criminals who have taken advantage of our asylum system? I think these are natural questions to have about 23,000 people who have come into the country and then seemingly disappeared. This is something Labour will definitely need to get to grips with if they want to portray themselves as "smashing the boat gangs" and controlling the borders as they were very happy to repeat over and over during the campaign cycle.
Some people who have been drawn to these protests have concerns such as this, who I would struggle to describe as "far-right". So I think if you can manage to solve issues like that, the racists and extremists would lose some of their apparent support that has risen over the past few years or so.
Yes, once an asylum seeker gains refugee status they will have to join the social housing waiting list like everybody else if they require it. Same for economic migrants, they won't receive any preferential treatment when it comes to accessing public services and benefits. You are right, but it should be harder for non-citizens, or those that don't have indefinite leave to remain or refugee status to access UK public benefits.
I agree with this. We should not give in or pander to bigotry and racism in our society.
If our society is to be cohesive again after these riots, then we must talk to each other. You are perfectly right in saying that being opposed to racism and hatred should not equate to shutting down reasonable debate and discussion on the topic of immigration. Suppressing the reasonable debaters and politicians who wish to improve our immigration and asylum system will only fuel the extremists more.
Anyone who has taken to the streets and attacked other people due to the colour of their skin is definitely a far-right racist, and those who have destroyed property and set cars on fire and so on, are thugs and I hope the law can deal with them appropriately. I have no qualms about saying that.
However, I feel that what some people and especially Starmer are missing (either through a lack of understanding or wilful ignorance), is why have these protests and riots happened in the first place? This is where I think the prime minister has played it wrong in his speeches. His attempts to explain away these events as merely something orchestrated by the far-right boogeyman is not correct in my opinion. As the government, you cannot just sweep this under the rug and explain it away as solely a result of Farage, Tommy Robinson, and Russian misinformation.
The root cause of the past few weeks needs to be addressed directly (i.e., our poor immigration/asylum systems), otherwise we can expect flare ups every so often with the sorts of scenes we have seen recently.
I will go back to the YouGov poll from my previous comment as well. A majority of British people (66%) think immigration has been too high and the British voting public voted (on numerous occasions) for political parties that promised to lower immigration. They even voted for Brexit, which had a core tenant of reducing immigration. However, we know that a reduction of immigration never happened over the course of the Tory's 14 years in government.
When the public vote for something repeatedly, does that government have a moral obligation to enact it? Or can the government ignore the will of the electorate because they know better or because the government simply changed its mind?
After all, we are repeatedly told that if we want change, we need to get it through the ballot box - which hasn't been working too well the past decade or so, or if ever actually, haha.
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Kite
Pokémon Master
Into the so called black economy*, working in places which are mostly cash only (hand car washes, takeaways, barbers etc) so they get paid cash in hand with no tax etc etc.
(* In some extreme cases as modern day prisoners with their boss threatening to report them to the home office if they misbehave etc)
One issue I suspect for some comes from the high immigration is the cost being wasted on putting them up in hotels with various benefits thrown their way as a drain on the public purse (said hotel owners laughing to the bank)
Just Passing Through
The Wildcard
So yesterday, so many anti-racists came out on the streets that the fascists needed police protection. After a depressing week, this country reminds me why it can be so bloody fabulous sometimes.
Anj
Completely Average High School Student
Just going off at a completely different angle did anyone see the three programme series on iPlayer about the political situation in China at the moment?
Absolutely terrifying. If you're feeling strong stomached it is worth a watch but there is quite a lot of upsetting things mentioned like torture etc.
these violent fascist protesters in our country need to thank their lucky stars our government doesn't react like China's to people slating them...
Absolutely terrifying. If you're feeling strong stomached it is worth a watch but there is quite a lot of upsetting things mentioned like torture etc.
these violent fascist protesters in our country need to thank their lucky stars our government doesn't react like China's to people slating them...