Fanservice, Does It Bother You?

[Rui]

But us ladies only have the catered choice of BL or shoujo shows which are few and far between compared to everything else.

Fanservice is fine when an anime is clearly denoted as such (ecchi and stuff like Ikkitousen). But I don't want it in my serious, gritty shows. For example, a woman falls over and panty shot. Immersion spoiled! This aspect is why some people have a Daily Mail impression of anime and it's embarrassing. I'm not saying get rid of fanservice because that would be censorship but it doesn't need to be so ubiquitous.

I'd say there are considerably more otome game adaptations these days than BL shows, unless we include regular shounen titles with pandering elements in the latter category. The fact that relatively few female-orientated shows subsequently make it to UK shelves is a separate problem and one for our distributors to deal with - in Japan, you can find female-orientated anime/hobby specialists in every major city and the market is absolutely booming, so why we just end up with a couple of titles here and there (thanks MVM!) is more indicative of the ingrained inequality in the west than at the source. There's a self-perpetuating myth here that women don't buy anything so there's no need to cater for them.

I don't usually see out-of-place panty shots or jiggling boobs in gritty shows, though it's a fair point that when it happens it can lower the tone inappropriately. Most of the shows which resort to that kind of thing tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves and the female character designs give the game away early on, so I can avoid them quite easily. Are there any other good examples? One I often see cited is the Major's questionable costumes in the GitS TV series, though again that's pretty openly out there right on the packaging and it's up to the viewer to decide how far they want to suspend their disbelief.

R

 

[qaiz]

I don't usually see out-of-place panty shots or jiggling boobs in gritty shows, though it's a fair point that when it happens it can lower the tone inappropriately. Most of the shows which resort to that kind of thing tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves and the female character designs give the game away early on, so I can avoid them quite easily. Are there any other good examples? One I often see cited is the Major's questionable costumes in the GitS TV series, though again that's pretty openly out there right on the packaging and it's up to the viewer to decide how far they want to suspend their disbelief.

R

Its strange, because on one hand I 100% believe in artist integrity and the notion that the creators should be able to put whatever they want into their shows, as it's...you know, theirs. They don't owe us anything. Having said that, I'd be lying if I didn't look at a character like the Major in S.A.C and groan at the idea that a good show is marred by a stupid character design that turns me off. It wears itself on its sleeve as you said, so there's no bait and switch, but I'd love it if shows didn't just resort to T&A. These are products at the end of the day, so adhering to the whims of fans is sometimes necessary, and to be honest I think that might be a larger factor into why things like that happen over artistic integrity. Sex sells.

 

[ayase]

Fanservice is fine when an anime is clearly denoted as such (ecchi and stuff like Ikkitousen). But I don't want it in my serious, gritty shows. For example, a woman falls over and panty shot. Immersion spoiled! This aspect is why some people have a Daily Mail impression of anime and it's embarrassing. I'm not saying get rid of fanservice because that would be censorship but it doesn't need to be so ubiquitous.

Would you want anime to be the kind of thing the Daily Mail brigade would enjoy though? Personally I'd like such easily offended, prudish people to stay as far away from it as possible. Everything is not for everyone, and media would be incredibly bland and inoffensive if it tried to be.

If people are embarrassed to admit to liking anime because they don't want to be associated with jiggly cartoon boobs that's their problem. I'd recommend abandoning shame instead, personally - When you no longer care what other people think of you, you're entirely free to enjoy everything like our lord and saviour Yotsuba.

 

[neptune2venus]

If people are embarrassed to admit to liking anime because they don't want to be associated with jiggly cartoon boobs that's their problem. I'd recommend abandoning shame instead, personally - When you no longer care what other people think of you, you're entirely free to enjoy everything like our lord and saviour Yotsuba.

There are anime out there (See, Najica Blitz Tactics for example) which specifically caters for people who enjoy that kind of thing. Why should I recommend a show that might be great and then it shows a zoomed in panty shot for example that has no relevance other than to pander to a certain demographic? It is rather cringe-inducing. I can't see any defence that can justify it.

 

[ayase]

Does anything really need justifying when it comes to fiction and fantasy? If people enjoy things great, if they don't that's fine too.

If someone thinks "I'd like this thing if only it was a bit different" that's understandable as everyone has different tastes, but is there any reason it should actually change to cater for them rather than catering to the people it already does without their input?

 

[neptune2venus]

Does anything really need justifying when it comes to fiction and fantasy? If people enjoy things great, if they don't that's fine too.

If someone thinks "I'd like this thing if only it was a bit different" that's understandable as everyone has different tastes, but is there any reason it should actually change to cater for them rather than catering to the people it already does without their input?

Maybe because I think it is a thinly veiled excuse for 90% of anime pandering to a male 15-25 demographic? This is where the justification comes in. It's specifically targeting a group of people and takes away accessibility for other groups of people who may question why panty shots/crotch shots/male gaze are there in the first place.

So if fanservice was 100% accepted then this topic would not exist. But the fact that it does, means that fanservice in anime can be seen as problematic and should be questioned.

 

[msgeek]

I am firmly in the enjoying fanservice camp although a lot of the times these days I don't even notice it. For me watching anime is not just about watching a show, but also about experiencing a different culture. And although it is laughable to consider the content of most anime to be representative of Japanese culture, it is ultimately Japanese culture that is responsible for it's creation, whatever a particular show turns out like.

Wanting anime to be different in any way to the initial intention of it's creators simply to conform to our western "sensibilities" is an attempt to force creators to conform to our culture and expectations, and I strongly believe the western world should have little say in this. Anime is a Japanese art form and should be free to evolve as such without this external influence, as should their culture. If they want to add aspects of western culture then there's nothing wrong with that, but that's their decision and not something we shouldn't even want to influence.

I consider it a privilege to watch anime, and experience another culture in this way as intended. If you think a show may offend you then there are enough methods available to check whether that is likely to be the case and avoid it.

I do not mean to offend anyone and I hope I have not, but I would go even further along this line of thought and argue that criticism of what is ultimately a popular art form of another culture is an attack on that culture itself. It's like saying that "I like watching documentaries about Africa, but I get offended by the grass skirts".

To finish off - Please don't consider the above as an personal attack or as intended to offend anyone, I wrote it purely as way to express my own opinion, and perhaps provide some conversation points or further the discussion.

 

[ayase]

Does anything really need justifying when it comes to fiction and fantasy? If people enjoy things great, if they don't that's fine too.

If someone thinks "I'd like this thing if only it was a bit different" that's understandable as everyone has different tastes, but is there any reason it should actually change to cater for them rather than catering to the people it already does without their input?

Maybe because I think it is a thinly veiled excuse for 90% of anime pandering to a male 15-25 demographic? This is where the justification comes in. It's specifically targeting a group of people and takes away accessibility for other groups of people who may question why panty shots/crotch shots/male gaze are there in the first place.

So if fanservice was 100% accepted then this topic would not exist. But the fact that it does, means that fanservice in anime can be seen as problematic and should be questioned.

I'm in favour of anybody producing anything in order to appeal (another word for pander) to anyone. I think generally though, the market tends to decide. What gets produced is what people want - It must be, because otherwise it wouldn't be produced. This doesn't mean anime without fanservice isn't produced - It is, just in lower quantities according to demand. When what people do want already exists, why question the reason something they don't want exists?

What I'm not and won't ever be in favour of is people being told not to produce something because somebody doesn't like it. If somebody doesn't like something someone else produced, they can just not consume it. "Problem" solved.

 

[neptune2venus]

But I would go even further along this line of thought and argue that criticism of what is ultimately a popular art form of another culture is an attack on that culture itself. It's like saying that "I like watching documentaries about Africa, but I get offended by the grass skirts".

I'm not attacking Japanese culture, I'm just saying there are business reasons behind fanservice and there is anime dedicated to it already.

Does fanservice need to be in *most* anime, is what I'm trying to say. Of course, I know answers will have bias considering this is an anime forum. But I genuinely believe that fanservice doesn't need to be peppered in to sell.

What I'm not and won't ever be in favour of is people being told not to produce something because somebody doesn't like it. If somebody doesn't like something someone else produced, they can just not consume it. "Problem" solved.

But fanservice is not stopping. Ecchi anime is created solely for that reason. Is it not okay to question why fanservice exists when that 'option' is already available in abundance?

 

[ayase]

Is it not okay to question why fanservice exists when that 'option' is already available in abundance?

You can, but I think it's pretty pointless as the answer's readily apparent: It exists because enough people enjoy it to make its inclusion worthwhile for the producers. I'd be willing to hazard a guess that they probably enjoy it too.

I suppose you could go further and question why people enjoy it. But does that really matter, and is it likely to change? People are going to keep doing things they enjoy regardless of whether other people think they should or not.

 

[Lutga]

This sounds like an odd way to put it, but especially in regards to shows like Strike Witches, I think there's almost a certain 'art' to good quality fan-service, where it becomes part of the package that makes up a character.

In shows like that and stuff like KanColle/idol shows/any manner of monster/mecha musume shows, the goal of the show essentially is to make a large cast of girls distinct from one-another. As part of that, you use whatever tools you have in your arsenal, whether that be hair colour, moe tropes, verbal tics etc - and various degrees of fanservice such as boob grabs or panty shots. One of the girls will be a letch, one will sleep naked, one will be the shy girl who doesn't get sex jokes, etc.

As I think the Anime Encycopedia puts it rather neatly when it comes to Ikki Tousen - it *matters* if pants flash from under a sailor suit or a tartan skirt.

 

[SunlightHeart]

Hmmm, no, fanservice does not bother me at all. In fact, I love me some fanservice. I want more...

Seriously, I don't think i've ever seen a bit of fanservice I haven't found acceptible, but alas if there was a japanese girl in the room here she would be no doubt yelling "Hentai! Hentai! Hentai!" at me.

But I care not.

 

[HdE]

if, as has been suggested to me, certain studios in Japan are now considering the impact of their work in the West, I'd really, really love to see that stuff tamed. At its very worst, it makes things difficult to watch.

Would you watch other things you had no interest in or found unappealing HdE? It's this desire to censor and sanitise things they don't like (but which OTHERS DO) that I really hate about this modern attitude. Instead of complaining about the media they don't enjoy, why don't they just not watch it and instead consume media they DO enjoy? Why are people so much more uncomfortable with sexuality than they are with violence?

I wouldn't call it a desire to censor or sanitise, personally.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the jarring kind of fan service that leaps out from shows it seemingly has no place in. Good examples would be Linebarrels of Iron, which went down a jiggly-boobies-with-everything route not seen in the manga. Or Broken Blade, which, while nowhere near as overt, certainly felt like it was making efforts to provide fan service-y elements.

True story: As I was watching that show ahead of writing my review of it for AUKN, there was an episode where two female characters were, let's be blunt, parading around in boudoir attire discussing matters of state. I cracked a funny remark from there on every time it cut back to those two, something along the lines of 'Meanwhile, in the sapphic kingdom...' which honestly gave the friend I was watching it with more enjoyment than the show itself.

So, there's my personal issue. It's not that I'm actively watching things I know I won't enjoy. I'm Mr. Robot show. And I despise panty shots and pointless titillation. So it feels like a fair point to criticise when I see it in my kind of show.

Anyway, I'm off to watch Godannar now.

 

[Lutga]

Yup, Broken Blade is one of the most obvious examples of where it's forcefully shoe-horned in - especially when it's just random girl-on-girl action for the sake of it.

 

[Phobos]

Personally I quite like fanservice unless it is out of place within the show.

 

[black1blade]

Not too much but I rarely watch any heavy fanservice shows with nisemonogatari being the only thing on my anime list with the ecchi tag (I apparently prefer ecchi to fantasy-thanks SAO!). Some of the fanservice was a bit over the top and I didn't really find any of it arousing in any way really.

 

[IncendiaryLemon]

I didn't really find any of it arousing in any way really.

but the Toothbrush scene!

 

[Vashdaman]

I dislike fan service. Mainly because I think by it's very nature it is crass, childish, demeaning. and the product of a sexist society. It's interesting that people are saying they don't mind it "when done well"? But what are these examples of tasteful fan service?

I don't think it's a thing about being "scared of sexuality" as ayase suggested. That's a bit like saying the people who think The Sport is a ****** newspaper are scared of sexuality. I don't think many people's problems with fanservice is the sexuality of it all. On the contrary, I wish more anime would actually explore the subject of sex and sexuality properly. But anime nearly never does, I'm not sure I can even think of one example off the top of my head.

I don't really care about dedicated ecchi shows or whatever they're called, like Ikki tousen or whatever. Because those are, quite simply, soft porn. Nothing more, nothing less. And anyone who thinks they aren't is surely in denial. So, ok fine, I can easily ignore those shows. But the problem is that it crops up in so many anime, as Lutga said, it's to the point where you're actually surprised when a show doesn't include it. Don't get me wrong I'm all for artistic integrity and all that, but again, as qaiz said, these aspects are in all probability included in many shows where they shouldn't simply because the creators felt pressure or an expectation to include them. That's pretty much the opposite of creative freedom.

This isn't really about sexy character designs like the Major in GitS or whatever, I don't have a problem with that. but more so those properly cringe worthy purile moments, and camera angles that we've all seen in far too many anime, and seem to have no other purpose than titillating teenagers. Though I could be wrong, as quite a few forum members here seem titillated by it too, and fair play to you.

I think Rui's point about there being plenty of anime that are aimed at providing women with eye candy too, is an interesting one. But as someone who genuinely enjoys a fair bit of Shoujo, while there certainly are plenty of idealized men, I haven't seen any that resort to the dirt cheap sort of objectification that their male aimed counterparts often do. Also, far from promoting the ideals of macho-ism, and the typical sort of masculinity that society emphasizes, Shoujo often seems to elevate nearly the opposite of that. Well, not always, but often. While the typical male aimed shows only serve to reinforce the status quo.

 

[IncendiaryLemon]

I don't think done well really refers to it being tasteful. I think it's more referring to not interfering with the plot and not overly distracting form the experience as a whole. At least that's what I meant anyway.

 

[Vashdaman]

What's the point of it then? If it's not distracting you, it can't be giving you a boner, so what's there left to enjoy? The stupidity of it?

I'd be curious to know an example of this skillfully implemented fan service, so I could have an idea what you're talking about?