Fanservice, Does It Bother You?

[IncendiaryLemon]

Okay, maybe not distracting is incorrect. What I'm thinking of are shows like Kill la Kill, Monogatari, OreImo, and Gurren Lagann. Where the Fan Service feels part of the experience of the show rather than something that takes you out of it.

 

[ayase]

I don't think it's a thing about being "scared of sexuality" as ayase suggested. That's a bit like saying the people who think The Sport is a ****** newspaper are scared of sexuality. I don't think many people's problems with fanservice is the sexuality of it all. On the contrary, I wish more anime would actually explore the subject of sex and sexuality properly. But anime nearly never does, I'm not sure I can even think of one example off the top of my head.

Bit of an unfair comparison that vash, the quality of everything in The Daily Sport is at the same level of crapness. How would you feel if The Guardian had a page 3? I wouldn't be bothered because I don't find that sort of nudity or titillation sexist or demeaning. I just find it fun. There's a massive difference I think between being derogatory and disrespectful to people and just enjoying a bit of sexiness (though of course there should be naked men on page 3 too, I'm all for equality). I suppose it comes down to the fact I fundamentally disagree with the term "objectification" being used in the way it often is. We all like looking at people and their body parts we find sexually attractive. That's pretty undeniable and I don't think that's anything to be ashamed of - That's just sodding biology and we can't conquer it any more than we can stop going to the toilet.

I guess in the end, how seriously do people want to take sex? I think it's probably healthier not to take it so seriously - I've had a life that's allowed me to mix with lots of different kinds of people and you know which people seem happier and more laid back about sex? The ones who probably do read those awful red tops, playfully flirt with people they find attractive in day to day life (and enjoy being playfully flirted with in return) for whom "objectification" is simply "eyeing someone up" and who couldn't tell you what "male gaze" even meant, let alone notice it in media. More well-read people do seem to have a tendency to over-think the issues of sex and sexuality massively. I know because I've been there, then I stopped. And life is much better now that I don't care about these things any more. So rather than thinking "Ooh er, is it okay to enjoy this, or by doing so am I supporting the reinforcement of patriarchal objectifying attitudes?" I just think "Boobs, great. Boobs are enjoyable". And I think those who prefer men are more than welcome to appreciate and enjoy abs, or cocks, or whatever it is that they like too.

 

[Rui]

I don't personally watch shows with fan service in the pursuit of a boner, ever; it's because I find them entertaining. Despite a strict religious upbringing, over the years I have come to the conclusion that the human body is funny and something to enjoy. Especially when it's silly and nobody is actually being harmed in any way.

I wish more anime would actually explore the subject of sex and sexuality properly. But anime nearly never does, I'm not sure I can even think of one example off the top of my head.

To be honest I find the ridiculous sex in some titles more 'realistic' than serious sex, in terms of the emotional experience, since I've never had the kind of sex they show in cautionary documentaries myself. But when sex is depicted in a realistic, understated way nobody cares about it. There's implied sex in tons of mainstream shows where it's just a fact of life and part of the background of the story, like it is in reality. I don't think there's any problem with the variety on offer; there's a lack of serious, educational sex anime in general but that's because making that kind of story into manga is much cheaper and less risky. And it will always be that way unless a market of people emerges to support that kind of title (the lovely Wandering Son anime did a great exploration of modern gender issues and yet I don't see it licensed on BD in the west nor selling hundreds of thousands of copies in Japan, regrettably).

Going back to the GitS example, I don't think that Masamune Shirow feels any particular external pressure to make his ladies sexy. I get the impression that he just likes drawing sexy mostly-naked women and that carries over into his work. Manga-derived anime is unique in the modern world due to it incorporating ideas which come straight from the creator's own personality, and I'd hate to lose that. For all of the sleazy lowbrow smut which comes out of it, we also get unique, quirky classics written by minds who would never be able to push their ideas through if everything was designed by committee. You'd just end up with everything being sanitised, similar and dull.

I think Rui's point about there being plenty of anime that are aimed at providing women with eye candy too, is an interesting one. But as someone who genuinely enjoys a fair bit of Shoujo, while there certainly are plenty of idealized men, I haven't seen any that resort to the dirt cheap sort of objectification that their male aimed counterparts often do. Also, far from promoting the ideals of macho-ism, and the typical sort of masculinity that society emphasizes, Shoujo often seems to elevate nearly the opposite of that. Well, not always, but often. While the typical male aimed shows only serve to reinforce the status quo.

There's a difference in that women tend to be stimulated by slightly different things than the male audience (which carries through to the items available on the market - you haven't lived until you've seen the number of female-orientated 'audiobooks' available in Japan with 18+ warning labels and there's literally an entire industry based around male seiyuu skilled with performing titillating dialogue through 'dummy head' first person microphone systems). But if people are going to keep bringing up shoujo romance titles as though they are equivalent to the casual T&A fan service we get in male-orientated shows, I'd like to point out that plenty of less sophisticated female-orientated visual fan service does in fact exist. Did everyone blink and miss the outcry over the female gaze scenes in Free!?

Tempted to whip out Photoshop and create a collage of bulging male bodies to illustrate my point except I should really be in bed >_>

I agree that female-orientated shows tend to focus on a less harmful, single-minded depiction of the opposite sex than the lowbro T&A titles we're comparing them to (though that's not universal either, especially in BL). Since most of the guys I know in reality aren't very stereotypically 'manly' either, I appreciate seeing that kind of man in my fiction rather than the idealised macho superheroes movies keep trying to push. Before you want to call anime out on the way women are portrayed, however, you might also want to do something about the western media too though; dumbed-down depictions of women inserted as eye candy are nothing unique to the anime world.

R

 

[Vashdaman]

@ ayase
I can't really argue with that. The problem, in my eyes, is how prolific it all is. If a show is serious about portraying a character as a proper human being, I never find endless arrays of boob and crotch shots to be helpful in that goal. And it's not just an anime thing at all. There are so many american tv shows I enjoy that have the obligatory soulless "animalistic" type sex scene per episode, and it just becomes so bloody boring.

I'm in two minds about agreeing with you in what you say about taking sex seriously or not. I mean, I personally think I am pretty open and relaxed about discussing sex and my own sexuality, but at the same time time I do think sex is an incredibly powerful and meaningful thing, and I think that's often forgotten. But that's beside the point I suppose. I'm not so sure being totally ignorant of the issue of sexism is really the wisest thing. Because I've grown up surrounded by boys/men with deeply entrenched sexist mind sets to varying degrees (as I'm sure most of us have), and to a degree used to have it ingrained in my mind as well. It used to be depressingly common, for example, to mention to my brother about me meeting a woman, only to have his very first comment be "out of ten?", like no forget everything else just rate her physical attractiveness on a scale of 1 to 10 (as if I can even do such a thing) because that's the important thing. That's what I think this culture of objectifying collectively does, it dehumanizes people (especially women) until they are just a score out of 10.

And the funny thing is, that example I just gave you wouldn't even be considered in the least bit problematic by probably most men, because the levels of ignorance and sexism are often so much higher than that. I've witnessed so many actual horror stories of misogyny.

I do totally understand where you're coming from though ayase. I sometimes even feel as you do, and think people need to just stop taking things so seriously and lighten up and take things with more humour. I nearly always contradict myself (I can't quite listen to Gorilla Pimp anymore, but I can still listen to some pretty misogynistic rap, albeit with a cringe on my face) and feel frustrated with people who seem to look like they are just complaining for no good reason about something that seems harmless. But it almost can be too easy and tempting to slip into that cozy mindset, as I think if we look at the big picture, there is still a big problem with the way media depict women, and these relentless deceptions can have an impact on real women (and men).

@ Rui
I don't think shows that explore sex meaningfully have to depict the typical types of sex scenarios that are in supposedly "more realistic" programs. I think there's so much more scope for creative media in general to explore sex in interesting and meaningful ways that it never does. Being totally honest, the majority of my experience of sex as an adult and the issues around it, I have never once seen represented or reflected in any creative fiction at all! I understand that there (unfortunately) isn't much of a market for these types of programs, but maybe there could be, if we stopped constantly depicting sex in our media in such a two dimensional and boring way.

And yeah fair point about Shirow. That man is an unashamed freek-a-leek and more power to him. But I wouldn't for second imagine that the majority of shows with crammed in fan service are as genuinely passionate about debauchery as Shirow is.

 

[ilmaestro]

Does it bother me? Nah.

The much bigger point is that anything that is used to attempt to cover up a lack of quality is going to be at risk of being confused for the reason behind the lack of quality. Or as Rui said:

Having said that, the specific example of The Testament of Sister New Devil was one of the rare examples of a show where I found the fan service actively offputting because it was so unsophisticated and crude. That wasn't because fan service itself is terrible, though, it's because The Testament of Sister New Devil wasn't a very sophisticated show.

Except that I think "not very sophisticated" is grossly understating how bad that show was.

 

[Invisible Crane]

That site I mentioned on the first post (fapservice.com) they keep expecting nipples on the BD of Triage X......sorry boys you ain't getting any nipples on that show. I mean it's from the same studio that did High School Of The Dead and......okay they did show one character nude but that was a fluke. Seriously that site is full of......people who shold know better who come off as if they have never seen a girl in their lives who only watch anime in the hopes of seeing female nipples, how sad is that

 

[ilmaestro]

Heh, I hadn't read the first post until reading your post just now.

You "recently found out about" a site called fapservice.com? Was it in your local newspaper? On a radio ad? :lol:

 

[Smeelia]

I guess I'm in the enjoying fanservice camp. I think it does depend on the show but in general I'm at least quite tolerant and find it can be an enjoyable addition to a show.

That said, I don't tend to enjoy live-action fanservice as much. I think the fact that there's an actual actor involved raises the standard of justification that I expect. With anime the standard is basically "staying true to the characters and themes" and I'm probably pretty loose in applying it but I expect more from live-action shows. For example, despite being quite a big fan of fantasy/sword and sorcery I just couldn't get into Game of Thrones because of all the sex and nudity. Mind you, the sex and nudity did seem like such a large part of the show that it may have undermined any of the appeal even if it was an anime so maybe that's a bad example.

I think the problem with the "sexism" argument is that people who enjoy fanservice are often aware enough to enjoy fanservice as a fantasy without letting it influence their beliefs in the real-world. It's kind of insulting to be told that you're sexist for enjoying fanservice when you know that it's not true.

If anyone is learning to be sexist by watching fanservice then I think the problem would be a lack of alternative sources rather than the fanservice itself. I'm also not convinced that fanservice is particularly common in shows that actually intend to have some sort of educational (or at least thoughtful/philosophical) content.

I guess I do have sympathy for people who have a strong dislike of fanservice but enjoy most of the other elements in the types of shows that are likely to have fanservice. I'm all for more varied content so it can be disheartening to see certain content labelled as "essential" for marketing reasons.

 

[Vashdaman]

I think the problem with the "sexism" argument is that people who enjoy fanservice are often aware enough to enjoy fanservice as a fantasy without letting it influence their beliefs in the real-world. It's kind of insulting to be told that you're sexist for enjoying fanservice when you know that it's not true.

But it's not just people who are deliberately and in a very aware way enjoying fanservice who will be exposed to shows with fanservice. But "fan service" is quite ubiquitous, even if there are a few shows that thankfully don't indulge in it, and many people will be growing up watching these shows in which gratuitously objectified women are the norm, and seen only from a male point of view. Isn't it just naive to believe this won't contribute towards normalizing sexism?

And while I can understand where Rui is coming from in her argument that there are ample shows with an ever present female gaze. But is that really any better? Having a market which is dominated by shows catering to either one or the other gender bias? Wouldn't it be better if we had more shows with no specific gender biases, and more actually human characters?

It's not that it's bad in and of itself, but that fan service of any kind, surely doesn't need to be as ubiquitous as it currently is.

I guess I do have sympathy for people who have a strong dislike of fanservice but enjoy most of the other elements in the types of shows that are likely to have fanservice. I'm all for more varied content so it can be disheartening to see certain content labelled as "essential" for marketing reasons.

Exactly. Some people are saying "if you don't like it just don't buy it, and stop complaining", but what if you do like it and would just rather that there not be a close up boob shot every time a busty teacher enters a room. Is it wrong to voice your gripes with the more puerile aspects of a show? Because to be honest, if I had a daughter or a son, I don't think I'd want to expose them to that kind of material, even though there might be some other good stuff in the show.

I'm not saying I'm right by the way, just thrashing out some thoughts.

 

[ilmaestro]

I think the problem with the "sexism" argument is that people who enjoy fanservice are often aware enough to enjoy fanservice as a fantasy without letting it influence their beliefs in the real-world. It's kind of insulting to be told that you're sexist for enjoying fanservice when you know that it's not true.

But it's not just people who are deliberately and in a very aware way enjoying fanservice who will be exposed to shows with fanservice. But "fan service" is quite ubiquitous, even if there are a few shows that thankfully don't indulge in it, and many people will be growing up watching these shows in which gratuitously objectified women are the norm, and seen only from a male point of view. Isn't it just naive to believe this won't contribute towards normalizing sexism?

Is it not also naive (or, potentially worse, somewhat hubristic) to pretend that this is not in any way tied to basic human nature, and instead is just the product of cynical profiteering?

In the specific example of:

but what if you do like it and would just rather that there not be a close up boob shot every time a busty teacher enters a room.

I would say that this is just as easy to identify as badly executed fanservice, rather than proof that fanservice is "bad".

If you watch, let's say, the morning news broadcasts on national television in this country, you are probably odds-on favorite to run into some "fanservice".

 

[ayase]

but what if you do like it and would just rather that there not be a close up boob shot every time a busty teacher enters a room.

I would say that this is just as easy to identify as badly executed fanservice, rather than proof that fanservice is "bad".

This strikes me as quite an important point. Personally when I defend fanservice I'm in no way defending lazy writing, poor direction or gimmickry, I'm defending anime's (and in fact all media's) right to be sexy.

even if there are a few shows that thankfully don't indulge in it, and many people will be growing up watching these shows in which gratuitously objectified women are the norm, and seen only from a male point of view. Isn't it just naive to believe this won't contribute towards normalizing sexism?

See, what you're doing there Vash is worrying about what people other than yourself are doing, which is always a mistake. We're only in control of how one person acts in this life, and that's ourselves. If you dislike fanservice you're free to criticise it, but perhaps look at your reasons and try not to attack it on behalf of other people who aren't you. They can speak for themselves and if they aren't willing to, they don't really deserve a say.

I doubt I have any more tolerance for sexism than you do, but sexism to me doesn't come from the act of finding people sexy, which I think is a ludicrous claim because everybody finds some people sexy and has sexual fantasies. Sexism comes from not respecting people as equals on the basis of their gender. The idea that being sexually attractive or provocative makes someone more difficult to respect (which is what the sexism accusations levelled at fanservice would imply) seems pretty damn old-fashioned. These friggin' "gaze" terms have always stuck me as something some pseudo-intellectual came up with to describe something perfectly normal to make them sound like they'd noticed some terrible truth no-one else had. Media aimed at straight men includes female characters that are appealing to straight men? Media aimed at straight women includes male characters that are appealing to straight women? Really? How awful! We must strive to make all media and characters appealing to no-one instead! When you boil this idea down all you're left with is "displaying your sexuality is bad" which I imagine a lot of people would take issue with in the modern world. A-OK with the patriarchal Abrahamic religions, but that's a topic for another thread.

Wouldn't it be better if we had more shows with no specific gender biases, and more actually human characters?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread (or perhaps it was a different thread, I forget) we do, they're just always going to be proportional to mass-market crap like in any other sector of the media. There are quite a few shows that have neither fanservice nor good characterisation.

 

[ilmaestro]

There are quite a few shows that have neither fanservice nor good characterisation.

Heh, definitely a point that is too easily overlooked in arguments "blaming" fanservice for a lot of ills.

 

[Vashdaman]

These friggin' "gaze" terms have always stuck me as something some pseudo-intellectual came up with to describe something perfectly normal to make them sound like they'd noticed some terrible truth no-one else had. Media aimed at straight men includes female characters that are appealing to straight men? Media aimed at straight women includes male characters that are appealing to straight women? Really? How awful! We must strive to make all media and characters appealing to no-one instead! When you boil this idea down all you're left with is "displaying your sexuality is bad" which I imagine a lot of people would take issue with in the modern world. A-OK with the patriarchal Abrahamic religions, but that's a topic for another thread.

But isn't that a huge part of the problem, shows are either "aimed at straight men" or "aimed at straight women" . Can't shows just be aimed at humans in general without alienating or objectifying the other half of the planet's population? And I'm not sure it's entirely fair to equate the argument against some of these shows as "sexy stuff is bad". And I think calling a lot of this crude fan service sexy is giving it way too much credit. There is huge scope to be sexy without resorting to the cheap and lazy school boy lechery that is a significant portion of anime's default type of "sexiness". Because to be honest, the camera abruptly panning on a busty female character's breasts for no apparent reason, isn't really sexy at all, it's just lazy and cringe worthy.

And while there are shows out there without this kind of fan service, there are loads of shows that I do enjoy, but would enjoy a hell of lot more if it didn't contain that kind of insipid and utterly boring female sexuality just for sake of it, and I think it's probably quite a healthy thing to call out and criticize the creators of this stuff, if they insist on continuously flooding us with this tired and two dimensional vision of female sexuality. It's not like anyone is really demanding censorship, is it?

 

[ilmaestro]

But isn't that a huge part of the problem, shows are either "aimed at straight men" or "aimed at straight women" . Can't shows just be aimed at humans in general without alienating or objectifying the other half of the planet's population?

I think this has proven to be historically very difficult, and hard to consistently monetize. Again we come back to simple human nature.

 

[ayase]

I think I've covered objectification earlier and I think probably, it's time to address specific examples of shows people can perhaps watch and discuss if this is going to carry on. It's becoming somewhat vague and I would be interested to know which shows people think have been "spoiled" by fanservice and would otherwise be quality entertainment for all the family.

On top of maestro's incredibly swift reply, I'd also be keen to add that there's nothing to say people who are not the intended audience will still enjoy something, as recent years have pretty conclusively demonstrated.

Spoiler

 

[bamboo-fox]

I was just reading the original message and if i'm honest I do find fan service a little annoying..... Mainly when its over done,

You expect to see a certain amount of it in certain anime but when it goes over the top it can become uncomfortable to watch

 

[Smeelia]

I pretty much agree with what Ayase was saying, I do find that what some people consider sexist I tend to find harmless (though maybe that says more about my standards).

As for "target audience", the same show could be said to be "aimed at men" or "aimed at people who like seeing naked women". It's really in how you're describing it and how you interpret the intent (though the actual intent may be relevant too). I guess I'm trying to say that a show that is "aimed at men" is aimed at what the creators think of as being what men want. Maybe the thought processes leading to that are themselves sexist but the end product wouldn't necessarily be different with a more neutral approach that merely aims to appeal to specific tastes.

I'm not actually sure that I'm making sense.

Maybe this is a different matter but I guess it's kind of related. I was watching Kinmoza (the second season) the other day and I noticed that a couple of the shots in the intro are from kind of a low angle (Alice standing up from the breakfast table and then Karen running down the street). I've been trying to decide if this is fanservice or not, you don't really see anything "extra" but that I noticed it in the first place might be relevant. I wouldn't really consider Kinmoza a fanservice show (of the kind usually being discussed, I'd be willing to admit it's fanservice for cute girls doing cute things fans) but it did get me thinking about what does and doesn't count. I'd be interested in hearing what people think about it (wouldn't take long to watch the intro, though you might have to skip the cold open if you're watching on Crunchyroll or somewhere else with a full episode).

 

[IncendiaryLemon]

I'll be honest, I've been watching (and loving) Kiniro Mosaic and I haven't noticed any fan service at all (Although there does appear to be a beach episode next). Maybe it's there and I just didn't pick up on it because it's subtle or maybe I just didn't consider it fan service.

 

[Smeelia]

I'll be honest, I've been watching (and loving) Kiniro Mosaic and I haven't noticed any fan service at all (Although there does appear to be a beach episode next). Maybe it's there and I just didn't pick up on it because it's subtle or maybe I just didn't consider it fan service.

I did laugh when they had the scene where they were discussing going to buy swimsuits and then the next scene they're walking home having already bought swimsuits. I'm not even sure it was supposed to be a joke about swimsuit buying scenes but there did seem to be a suspicious amount of buildup. Then I rewound the episode to make sure I didn't miss the swimsuit buying scene because I'm a terrible person.

It'll be interesting to see what the beach episode is like (assuming there is one and that wasn't another bluff), Hidamari Sketch had the girls in swimsuits (or less, there's a bath in pretty much every episode) without really doing fanservice as I saw it.

 

[IncendiaryLemon]

I'll be honest, I've been watching (and loving) Kiniro Mosaic and I haven't noticed any fan service at all (Although there does appear to be a beach episode next). Maybe it's there and I just didn't pick up on it because it's subtle or maybe I just didn't consider it fan service.

I did laugh when they had the scene where they were discussing going to buy swimsuits and then the next scene they're walking home having already bought swimsuits. I'm not even sure it was supposed to be a joke about swimsuit buying scenes but there did seem to be a suspicious amount of buildup. Then I rewound the episode to make sure I didn't miss the swimsuit buying scene because I'm a terrible person.

It'll be interesting to see what the beach episode is like (assuming there is one and that wasn't another bluff), Hidamari Sketch had the girls in swimsuits (or less, there's a bath in pretty much every episode) without really doing fanservice as I saw it.

I love beach episodes as much as the next guy, but I really hope they go sky diving