Fanservice, Does It Bother You?

Not sure whether this is an elaborate stealth marketing attempt to make people give Kiniro Mosaic a try (if so, well played) but the opening sequence in question didn't seem bad to me at all. I think they were just mixing up the angles to prevent it being visually boring, and there wasn't a trace of inappropriate sexualisation (the kind of person who considers bare legs on innocent schoolgirls to be seedy would probably also find a lot of other innocuous stuff questionable). I'd show it to my kid brother without a second thought. Though he'd be disappointed by the lack of explosions and lava.

R
 
IncendiaryLemon said:
I love beach episodes as much as the next guy, but I really hope they go sky diving :p
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I suppose they could parachute onto a beach then remove their skydiving gear to reveal swimsuits underneath, like in an action movie (I would say like a Bond girl but I'm not sure that actually happened in a Bond film).
 
@Rui If you like Slice of Life at all, you should really watch it. It's very cute and (in my opinion anyway, your mileage may vary) laugh out loud funny at points.

@Smeelia That would be perfect :p
 
I actually don't like cute shows much, and dropped the show after one episode originally. But somehow I ended up watching more anyway just now :)

R
 
I guess maybe it just highlights that there needs to be some sort of indication of intent behind fanservice then (context or whatever), although maybe other people would view it differently.

Also, yes, Kinmoza is great (I'm not sure if I forgot how much I enjoyed the first season or if I'm just enjoying the second season even more).
 
Something ****** like this is an example of what I'm talking about:

And this kind of stuff did actually cause me to drop the show in the end. Is the fact that millions of kids are growing up watching this shite not at least slightly depressing?

Although at this point I'm halfway convinced that it is all just human nature, to be honest, and I should just embrace it all forms of sexyness, no matter how crude. Who am I kidding eh, I'm all about that sexy

 
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Maybe it's a context thing but I didn't think the Naruto video you posted was bad. There's barely a glimpse of a fanservice moment and it mostly consists of people talking about beauty tips, which is a pretty common topic. Naruto gives his opinion on what he prefers (which is fine, he's entitled to an opinion) but his lack of tact causes him to suffer (a little unfair and the reaction is a bit extreme but with the "comedy violence" excuse, whether that's acceptable may vary). I guess you could say Naruto was being sexist by implying that what he wants in a woman is what a woman should want to be but it'd be a real stretch.

Also, I'm not a Naruto expert but I think the video might have something of a spoiler regarding the identity of the person being interviewed (though I doubt anyone would mind).

I'm not going to argue about the quality of Naruto itself but from a fanservice/sexism point of view I'm really not seeing it. At least show us the Sexy Jutsu.
 
ayase said:
On top of maestro's incredibly swift reply
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I have a little bell that rings through the house whenever vash makes a post.

Whilst I'm not sure I approve of the methods used in the rest of your post, I suppose I can't argue with the effect. :p
 
Smeelia said:
Maybe it's a context thing but I didn't think the Naruto video you posted was bad. There's barely a glimpse of a fanservice moment and it mostly consists of people talking about beauty tips, which is a pretty common topic. Naruto gives his opinion on what he prefers (which is fine, he's entitled to an opinion) but his lack of tact causes him to suffer (a little unfair and the reaction is a bit extreme but with the "comedy violence" excuse, whether that's acceptable may vary).
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My problem with it is this: It's an interview with one of the world's greatest ninjas who just happens to be a woman. Is the interview about her incredible skills or somesuch? No of course it isn't, it's about the attractiveness of her physical form, and with specific emphasis on her enormous boobs. Thus reducing this character to the role of mere prepubescent eyecandy.

I guess you could say Naruto was being sexist by implying that what he wants in a woman is what a woman should want
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I don't think it's even that much of a stretch to be honest. The woman in the show are repeatedly served up as eye candy for Naruto and the audience's ogling pleasure. So it's no surprise that Naruto himself is treating the women in the scene as nothing more than eye candy to be there for his ogling pleasure.

Do you see where I'm coming from? To be honest I haven't even seen this episode, I just typed "Naruto big boobs" into google (which reminds me, I should probably delete the history from my mum's laptop about now) and this came up. But the show is full of this stuff, as are shows like Bleach, and pretty much most (all?) popular Shonen shows.

@Ilmae

I have a whistle that goes off when you post too bro :oops:
 
Definitely not all. People forget that Shounen is more than just Naruto, One Piece and Bleach. Stuff like JoJo, Fullmetal Alchemist and Gintama are all quite popular and feature little to no fan service whilst still being considered Shounen.
 
Yowanda-san said:
vashdaman said:
And this kind of stuff did actually cause me to drop the show in the end. Is the fact that millions of kids are growing up watching this shite not at least slightly depressing?
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Um, I could be wrong but I think given the target audience of Naruto is probably about 12, no probably not. I mean, at that age, you're probably pretty curious about sex anyway. Besides, it could be worse, they could be watching Strike Witches...

Edit: You know, the show is called Naruto, right? So pretty much everyone who isn't Naruto is sidelined in a similar manner anyway.
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Of course they will be curious about sex. But my point is that Naruto's representation of women is terrible! Have a look at my post above.

@IncendiaryLemon

Fair enough, I'm no Shonen expert, but they are often full of that kind of thing. Shonen Jump is crammed full of it! Or at least it was the last time I looked at it.
 
But then is Naruto's representation of Men any better? I've never watched an episode (although I intend to work my way through the movies) but if they are similar to other anime like this then the men will be interested in fighting, leveling up, and staring at women.

Is that a realistic portrayal of men? Do they expect people to think these are realistic portrayals? Of course not.
 
Maybe not entirely realistic, but the show should still want to create human character's we can relate to and empathize with. It also invariably tries to shove moral lessons down the audiences throat. But really it's full of absolute status quo affirming shite.

Fighting and leveling up is the (perceived) average male's view of what is heroic, while the women in the show are largely just there to be ogled. It's a typical distasteful male power fantasy.
 
Going one step further. If you were going to criticize a genders representation in a given show, surely it would be more relevant to criticize the representation of the target audience? In the case of Naruto - Males. Surely telling boys they should be fighting, leveling up oglers of women has more of an impact (using this reasoning) than any depiction of women?

Reverse the roles. Is it a problem that male portrayal in female oriented anime is nothing like reality? Something like Ouran Highschool? No, I would argue that even with your reasoning, in such things the portrayal of the female characters is more important.

In the two examples above the opposite gender to the target audience is simply portrayed in a way that the target audience wants to see it. It's part of what makes the shows popular in the first place, and unrealistic portrayals of the opposite gender do not result in altered perception of that gender in the real world, in the same way that not everyone who watches Naruto suddenly thinks they are Naruto.

To elaborate on that example (choose square brackets or regular brackets accordingly);

Can I be annoyed by the [males]/(females) in [OHSHC]/(Naruto)? Sure.

Can I think the [males]/(females) in [OHSHC]/(Naruto) are totally unrealistic? No Problem.

Can I think that if anyone behaved like the [males]/(females) in [OHSHC]/(Naruto) they would have [had the crap kicked out of them]/(been rejected as friends) if they had gone to my school? Actually seems likely.

Do I think I have the right to criticize the creators of [OHSHC]/(Naruto) for portraying [males]/(females) in the way that [females]/(males) want to see them? Why on earth would I???
 
Well I have the right to criticize it, as I think it's stupid, lazy, boring, and I have a disliking for anything that affirms gender stereotypes and roles. And I do think it's hard to argue that a show like Naruto or Bleach that sexualizes the vast majority of it's female characters it's at least a little bit sexist.

But I think I understand what you're trying to say, live and let live and all that. Fair play.
 
I think having a problem with something personally and criticising what you take away from it or your interpretation of it is fine - No-one should be expected to enjoy everything except Yotsuba but things get very murky for me when people claim things are having effects on others, or that their opposition to or criticism of something is on behalf of others.

People speak for themselves when they express opinions, and if there's one thing that gets right on my tits it's people claiming to speak on behalf of a ridiculously varied group like an entire gender, race, nationality or sexual orientation (not saying you're doing so Vash, but your main argument against fanservice does seem to be the effect you think it has on other people). Or in fact, anyone other than themselves.

If people really think fiction is having an effect on how people view reality, I think the best thing you can probably do is not to seek to change fiction, but to teach people (primarily children, who are the ones least likely to comprehend this) to separate the two things. I wouldn't ever attempt to make my horrible twisted fantasies reality because I know the difference. So do people who are into BDSM. It would be easy (and I have no doubt plenty of people would and do, not least our government who seem to want to ban that sort of thing) to consider them terrible people for acting out abuse in a fictional context, but if everyone involved is enjoying it and it is in fact all consensual, where is the harm?

Ultimately, adults are responsible for themselves and parents are responsible for their children. If you're an adult, you are responsible for your behaviour towards others. If you're a parent, you are responsible for your children's behaviour. If people aren't going to be respectful and responsible, no-one is to blame but them. Not media, not society, and certainly not me.
 
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Yes, I subscribe to live and let live and hope the last post didn't come across as a personal attack. It's all opinion and just posted in the spirit of an open discussion - as is the following;

There is nothing wrong with you believing that you have the right to criticize it. But, I would submit, that unless you are equally critical of shows like OHSHC portraying males in a unrealistic and ultimately female oriented way then you are not treating both sexes equally which surely is the definition of sexism. Whether you are or not is a question only you can truly answer.

I avoid the necessity of being equally critical of both types by believing in freedom of expression and being critical of neither . It's ultimately capitalism, supply and demand and the free market that tilts the see-saw one way or the other in terms of volume of each type produced.
 
Well half of my argument is that type of fan service I'm describing is really boring and stale, and more than deserves to be called out just for that. But it's true, even though I agree it is somewhat murky water, I do suspect that the high volume of shows that do indulge in this kind of gratuitous objectification does contribute to normalizing and sustaining the the sexism ingrained in society. But really, regardless of whether it does have an impact on society or not, I think it's perfectly justifiable to criticize the creators of Naruto or whatever show for dehumanizing their female characters. And if female aimed shows dehumanize men, then I absolutely believe they should be called out for it to.

And back to the point on the effect on society, when I call out shows that portray women in a certain way, I'm not really speaking of behalf of the women of the world, as I believe this type of stuff can negatively impacts young men's view of the world (as I once was a young man) as much that women's.

But I don't think fan service heavy shows should be completely done away with. Most creators will just carry on as they always have, so we nothing to fear on that front. But if a few of them do happen to listen to the criticism, reflect on it, and decide that they will try and better portray women, and men too, isn't that a good thing? I do think things can get better.

The whole issue is a tricky one though, as I do understand the arguments you two (and others) are making.
 
Not that it has any effect on the discussion but I'm not sure Ouran High School Host Club is a good example of standard Shoujo with stereotypical depictions of genders. Not judging someone based on stereotypes is one of the (few) serious themes it deals with. It does use stereotypes but often to undermine them and point out how ridiculous they are. I'd imagine that msgeek hasn't actually seen/read it and was just going based on appearance and that it's reasonably well known, which is fair enough because it does kind of deliberately give a false impression (although, do try it because it's great).

Back to the discussion, if I understand what vashdaman is saying correctly then I guess I can at least partly agree. While I think shows with oversimplified and stereotypical characters are generally harmless, I'm not sure there's an excuse for making them that way. It's quite possible to have a show that deals in fantasies but still manages to have complex and compelling characters.

Still, in the case of long running Shonen action shows I wonder if part of the problem is that keeping the shows running requires minimising the workload and keeping the characters simple helps to achieve that. I watched Bleach pretty early in my anime watching career and the female lead Rukia was my favourite character until they sidelined her to focus on bigger fights and a major quest for the main guy (Ichigo). In the early episodes it felt more like Rukia and Ichigo were co-stars at the same level. Maybe my memory is just bad and it was never really like that but I can't help wondering if long running shows like these are really a category of their own.

Of course, I expect there will also be fans of those shows who can point to character arcs that were more complex and dealt with deeper issues. It does seem that the tendency is to have a select few characters who are allowed to be genuine characters while the rest are stereotypes/plot devices for ease of use. I'm not entirely convinced this is acceptable but I guess I can understand why they might do it that way. That said, just how well developed a character actually is seems to be surprisingly subjective (at least, I'm often surprised at the way different people have interpreted a particular character).

At the end of the day though, maybe we do need simple shows just to fill those times when we want to turn our brains off and enjoy something unchallenging.

Another point, shows that depend on stereotypes only really work while those stereotypes exist. If we had a society of tolerance that made less assumptions about people then a lot of those shows could look very different. For example, the assumption that a boy might have/want a girlfriend could seem quite unreasonable if society at large got used to the idea that it is. Still, people who don't subscribe to stereotypes can still be aware of them so maybe it wouldn't make a big difference

I hope that makes sense, I might have been rambling a bit.

Oh, and I agree with what ayase was saying about taking responsibility. I wouldn't say that parents are entirely responsible for the behaviour of their children but they do have a responsibility to try and monitor and educate as best they can.
 
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