Fan-subs; the root of all evil?

[Fellistowe]

oh, another question for you all while I'm thinking; what do you think the anime scene in the west would be like without fansub?

I'd be interested in peoples opinions on that, please

 

[Liquid Skin]

Excuse my ignorance but do the places where fan-subs are downloaded from feature various adds and pop ups? If so, they would be some source of income, if only a very small one.

That's a good question actually. Just looking at them, the ones that do follow the 'fansub code' have no ads, but Shinsen-subs do, loads of google ads, and a pop-up everytime you load their front page : o.
Dattebayo offer "professional services" but have no ads. Don't know about the others.

That reminds me. Apparently they have actually started a legal "free music download site in the US. All you have to do is look at a couple of ads and then you're free to download x amount of tracks. Apparently they have the support of some big record names - it sure isnt as big as the selection in itunes but its something. Began with a T or something - turtle or....meh, im sure you guys could find it easily enough.

Personally i hate adverts but the prospect of actually getting some sort of reward in exchange for all those goddamn "have you had an accident/are you in debt" ads is pretty appealing.

 

[melonpan]

I'd still pour all my money into buying anime all the same, I was going to write lots on this, but I can sum in up in that a lot of things wouldn't exist if fansubs weren't around - websites for such and such things. It just wouldn't be the same. To be honest, without fansubs things would be a hell of a lot different. In fact it would really badly suck if fansubs weren't out there, I can't stress that enough, but I'm too tired to write properly : (.

 

[Aethelwulf]

Okay well feeling a bit daft right now then, thanks had never even seen that channel lurking on there

About the Fansub thing - didn't mean to stir it up and I know (and said) it's illegal, twas the whole point of me asking actually for a legal way of watching it.


However a further question which is a bit off i guess but - I know you said that the 'butchering' doesn't happen too much with dubs nowadays, (though having watched the english OP and the Japanese version I know it does happen ). Did a little research on the Bleach Dub version and the episodes and such seem to match up so far, so would it be a fair assumption to assume that it is literally just a dub with no silly editing done on the american side of things?

 

[Gawyn]

However a further question which is a bit off i guess but - I know you said that the 'butchering' doesn't happen too much with dubs nowadays, (though having watched the english OP and the Japanese version I know it does happen ). Did a little research on the Bleach Dub version and the episodes and such seem to match up so far, so would it be a fair assumption to assume that it is literally just a dub with no silly editing done on the american side of things?

99% of all dubs these days are of the original and complete Japanese version and most of those are of a high standard. This doesn't mean they are to everyones' tastes but a fair assessment cannot say they have truly butchered a series. One Piece was a rare exception due to the fact of who licenced it (4Kids ) and the audience they aimed it at (kids between 7 and 10 or something like that). 4Kids have a habit of destroying most of the anime they touch but thankfully seem to have moved themselves out of that particular phase for now and One Piece has a new, uncut dub (presently only for episodes 139 onwards I think but the probability that the earlier episodes will be redubbed later is high).

Bleach has a complete uncut dub for the US and that is what is airing on Anime Central right now. Naruto has two versions, an uncut (for DVD) and a TV cut (for TV and kids DVD).

 

[Zentron]

oh, another question for you all while I'm thinking; what do you think the anime scene in the west would be like without fansub?

I'd be interested in peoples opinions on that, please

Which company was it that asked for the fan subbers to stop subbing their titles? Media Blaster I think it was! How have their sales been doing since they told all the subbers to stop? That should be a good indicator for an answer to your question!

 

[Gawyn]

oh, another question for you all while I'm thinking; what do you think the anime scene in the west would be like without fansub?

I'd be interested in peoples opinions on that, please

Which company was it that asked for the fan subbers to stop subbing their titles? Media Blaster I think it was! How have their sales been doing since they told all the subbers to stop? That should be a good indicator for an answer to your question!

The company was Media Factory (Media Blasters is a US company with no connections to Media Factory). I think the request had absolutely no effect whatsoever but FUNimation may be able to say for sure since School Rumble is one such title that was included in that particular request. (It didn't stop fansubs particularly in that case but it did stop it along some routes.)

 

[melonpan]

The company was Media Factory (Media Blasters is a US company with no connections to Media Factory). I think the request had absolutely no effect whatsoever but FUNimation may be able to say for sure since School Rumble is one such title that was included in that particular request. (It didn't stop fansubs particularly in that case but it did stop it along some routes.)

Yeah it was a shame about School Rumble, I think there was this fansub group - Wannabe fansubs or something, who were passionate about only doing SR, and did it extremely well. I'm really hoping Funimation don't go and do something stupid like sending a C+D to Kaizoku-fansubs, as Funi are doing One Piece now; that would not go down well.

 

[awadama]

Protecting your property isn't stupid. =/

And so what if it doesn't go down well...what are the subbers and downloaders gonna do? Boycott the DVDs they're already not buying because they're happily stealing the episodes?

Shocking I know, but maybe they'll actually have to pull some money out and exercise some patience and wait to buy a legit product!!

If people want School Rumble, then now they can buy a proper DVD and get nice magnets and stuff with them. If they can't afford it, they can get a job or re-evaluate their outgoings. If they still can't afford it, too bad.

 

[Liquid Skin]

I just hope that if/when the distributors start cracking down on fansubbers and fansubees (hehe cute word) they don't go overboard like the RIAA who recently ordered someone who downloaded 24 songs to pay a $222,000 fine.

Lets go over that again - around £110,000 for "damages". Ahem. And this was to a single mum with 2 kids. I know this was to "make an example" of pirates but to all but the most conservative eyes this is extortion pure and simple.

Of course they wont make losses with the people who are already pirating, but if the distributors use bully boy tactics and abuse the system that was put in place to protect their investment they will make enemies across the board.

 

[Ryo Chan]

I just hope that if/when the distributors start cracking down on fansubbers and fansubees (hehe cute word) they don't go overboard like the RIAA who recently ordered someone who downloaded 24 songs to pay a $222,000 fine.

Lets go over that again - around £110,000 for "damages". Ahem. And this was to a single mum with 2 kids. I know this was to "make an example" of pirates but to all but the most conservative eyes this is extortion pure and simple.

Of course they wont make losses with the people who are already pirating, but if the distributors use bully boy tactics and abuse the system that was put in place to protect their investment they will make enemies across the board.

yes but that law suit is a complete farce, and even goes as far as accusing microsoft and apple of supporting piratism

 

[Jax]

Anime wouldn't be half has big outside Japan if it wasn't for fansubs - FACT.

I also don't think stopping fansubs will help the market grow as most people will meerly turn their heads at the prospect of paying £20 for five or so 23 minute episode discs with crap/non-existent extras.

Mark my words that you would probably see a decline in anime interest as new people would find it harder to get into the whole anime scene. While people like me wouldn't be willing to take a £80 risk on buying a box set for a series they haven't seen anything of.

Not that fansubbing will ever stop though. Internet makes piracy easy. For every sub a company stops theres another five to take its place.

My code of ethics is that I download what I want. If I like it and its released in the UK then I'll buy it. If not I delete the files from my PC and save the money I would have spent on over-priced DVDs.

 

[Liquid Skin]

I just hope that if/when the distributors start cracking down on fansubbers and fansubees (hehe cute word) they don't go overboard like the RIAA who recently ordered someone who downloaded 24 songs to pay a $222,000 fine.

Lets go over that again - around £110,000 for "damages". Ahem. And this was to a single mum with 2 kids. I know this was to "make an example" of pirates but to all but the most conservative eyes this is extortion pure and simple.

Of course they wont make losses with the people who are already pirating, but if the distributors use bully boy tactics and abuse the system that was put in place to protect their investment they will make enemies across the board.

yes but that law suit is a complete farce, and even goes as far as accusing microsoft and apple of supporting piratism

Farce or not it doesnt matter to the poor woman who's coughing up the fees does it?

Besides havent you heard Sony's latest announcment? Firstly they want copying CDs to be made illegal (which i think in Germany that law has recently been passed, i could be wrong though) and secondly they also want you to buy the album/tracks again if you put it on a mp3 player. Granted ridiculous demands like these have a low likelihood of making it far enough but if enough of these demands start coming then the numbers game states that they'll be able to sneak in a law somewhere.

 

[CitizenGeek]

Anime wouldn't be half has big outside Japan if it wasn't for fansubs - FACT.

Not really. The majority of anime fans in the US are people that watch it on TV or buy DVDs.

I think you meant to say "anime wouldn't be as big on the internet without fansubs"

I've come across a fair amount of people who count themselves as anime fans and rarely or never buy DVDs. Such a common occurance is deplorable!

 

[Zentron]

Anime wouldn't be half has big outside Japan if it wasn't for fansubs - FACT.

Not really. The majority of anime fans in the US are people that watch it on TV or buy DVDs.

I think you meant to say "anime wouldn't be as big on the internet without fansubs"

I've come across a fair amount of people who count themselves as anime fans and rarely or never buy DVDs. Such a common occurance is deplorable!

I think you've been hanging out with the wrong crowd :lol: :wink:

The Anime's subbed are screened in Japan(or the DVDs purchased from Japan), hence the Earthquake and weather warnings that appear regularly in fansubbed Anime's!

Anywayz, if it weren't for the fansubs, I wouldn't have bought nearly three fifths of the Anime DVDs I have now!

 

[CitizenGeek]

The Anime's subbed are screened in Japan(or the DVDs purchased from Japan), hence the Earthquake and weather warnings that appear regularly in fansubbed Anime's!

Erm, what are you talking about? I think you may have misunderstoof me, I never said fansubbed shows weren't ripped from Japanese TV ...

 

[Zentron]

Erm, what are you talking about? I think you may have misunderstood me. I never said fansubbed shows weren't ripped from Japanese TV ...

Not really. The majority of anime fans in the US are people that watch it on TV or buy DVDs.

This statement, as it stands, implies that they watched them on TV and/or bought the DVDs in the US. To imply otherwise, you should have added "whilst on holiday in Japan", or somewhere along the lines.

 

[Gawyn]

Erm, what are you talking about? I think you may have misunderstood me. I never said fansubbed shows weren't ripped from Japanese TV ...

Not really. The majority of anime fans in the US are people that watch it on TV or buy DVDs.

This statement, as it stands, implies that they watched them on TV and/or bought the DVDs in the US. To imply otherwise, you should have added "whilst on holiday in Japan", or somewhere along the lines.

You are making no sense with this train of thought. What CitizenGeek was implying is that the majority of US fans have come from watching anime on US TV rather than watching fansubs on the internet. I would hold that this is true given that to get into (digi)fansubs you would have had to have been introduced into the idea from somewhere in the first instance. I couldn't imagine someone randomly stumbling across fansubs on the internet without first being aware of the anime medium, whereas many people could easily stumble onto it whilst channel hopping through the multitude of channels on US TV. Fansubs do not breed fans but rather feed an existing fanbase so to state that there would be less anime fans without fansubs is a fallacy or at the very least unprovable.

 

[Liquid Skin]

Well to break it down into simple terms you really have to ask why fansubs are still around after all this time. Its either:

a) The companies actually benefit from the exposure and so allow them to continue unabated, any publicity is good publicity right?
b) It costs too much to shut them all down.

Whichever one it is does it really matter? If they really are costing the distributors so much then why dont they bite the bullet and shut them down? They'd save money in the long run right? Internet anonymity is a fallacy after all, if someone wants to track you down, they will track you down - especially with a nice large team of corporate lawyers.

Fansubbing/piracy will always be around but with a large enough movement they could cripple the largest fansubbing teams and take a couple guys to court to make an example of them. That would certainly prune the community. Not destroy obviously but any casual downloaders would certainly be dissuaded.

The monetary argument just doesnt wash with me. The ethics one on the other hand is a different matter. But then again its ethics. What i think is right and wrong could differ widely to what you think and most people's minds are quite made up about that - i mean if you cant call your opinion your own what can you claim to own? So why bother arguing?

 

[Warmaster]

'Hardly' would be my initial take on the thread title, but there are some 'buts' to it.

Firstly, I got into Anime via the legit route - my brother mentioned the local video shop had some anime, and suggested Fist of the north star (not that legit - i was 15 at the time ) and it went from there.

The vast majority of the Anime I watch I have discovered through direct searches on the net (just to read about them) or in a few cases, have been told about by friends. All legit there.

However there are two types of Anime I where fansubs are something I go for.

1) The wierd stuff. I'm talking about the new stuff which probably will never be released outside japan because it is weird, or will not be released for a while. I was thinking this about Ouran high school host club at the time, (which is classic comedy) but surprisingly it is coming out, in america at least. In this case I will get the dvds if they ever come out over here.
However there are some I doubt will be released in the uk, such as Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru, or Hanbum No Tsuki ga Noboru Sora. In these cases I feel perfectly entitled to fansub them - If no one is ever going to release them, no one is losing any money! If they do happen to get released, I may well buy them.

2) The old stuff. So much old Anime has never been released in the UK, and the west generally. Among my fansub collection of old stuff stands Future Boy Conan. I have no idea why this was never released, but again, if it is not released, no one is losing money. Similary, the series Orguss, which I am desperately trying to find, has never properly been released. Again I think I am perfectly entitled to get it fansubbed.

Of course the question is 'If it DOES come out, will you buy it.' and if i say 'maybe' someone is bound to say 'well the people who released those which you didn't buy lose money' to which I will say 'Well if we could rent the damn things then we could checl if it is any good or not' - I am definately going to buy Ouran if it gets over here, but will not get Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru.


Closing remarks - I am not a massive fansubber, mostly rarities and obscurities - I mean I was waiting for 2 years to get Haibane Renmei, but waited intently for the english release (and was not disapointed) I waited even longer for all the Miyazaki stuff to get out here (Save conan as said, and lupin which i will hunt for at some point.) So I think from my persepctive it is perfectly fine.

(Rammbling post over)