Fan-subs; the root of all evil?

Well judging from the replies here we can at least say that the majority of those who fansub eventually buy the DVDs - if available.

Good ol English/British/whatever the hell we're calling ourselves today sense of fair play :p

And i'm not sure Ryo, in the wider scale of things i would have thought governments would be cracking down on larger areas of piracy such as music and film. More than likely the people who have been arrested will just get a slap on the wrist or maybe a fine, but that just me being too lazy to browse google :)
 
The most recent news on fansubbing and the law, was the case of Odex in the Singapore.

They forced (eventually) three Internet ISPs to release the IPs of a thousand people (per company), so they got three thousand people altogether. Each having to pay a $1000 fine (or round-about).

Odex are now thorougly hated.

It'd be stupid for an English company to do this. Odex were just money hungry. With less sense than the power they have. Luckily - the American companies aren't stupid enough to do this. Although if they did - as shown by Odex - they'd have the full support of the Japanese producers.

I wouldn't think it's anything to worry about over here. I'm certainly not worried. I spend every last bit of money I get on anime - so why should I be in the wrong here? There are thousands who pay nothing, but download vast quantities of anime compared to myself. :eek:
 
There seems to be at least two or three arguments going on here. The first is
Piracy - obtaining animé that is legally available illegally (download or pirate DVD's). Don't think you'll find a person on this board who will say this is a good idea, even if we've done it in the past (I own pirate copy of Macross Saga and downloaded Scrapped Princess when it was available in the State's, but both were due more to ignorance and now legally own both). Try before you buy doesn't cut it, cause if you want to do that RENT THE DVD's. The artists will get money form the rental company and every one is happy.
Fansubbing- acquiring animé not available outside Japan with no money changing hands. Both factors are important IMO. If it's availalbe elsewhere either import or wait, if your paying it's piracy. If both conditions are met go for it, then let you local animé distributors know, try and get them to pick it up and buy it when it comes out. Did that with Elfen Lied, and going to do it with Darker Than Black, Code-E and a long list of others. This I think is less of a problem, have and will buy an awful lot of anime that i normally wouldn't have due to fansubs.
 
DaNiMe-sama said:
The most recent news on fansubbing and the law, was the case of Odex in the Singapore.

They forced (eventually) three Internet ISPs to release the IPs of a thousand people (per company), so they got three thousand people altogether. Each having to pay a $1000 fine (or round-about).

Odex are now thorougly hated.
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Very true. From what I remember reading though Odex were seriously suffering financial difficulty due to the effects of fansubbing (someone please correct me if I read wrong on that)
 
Fellistowe said:
Very true. From what I remember reading though Odex were seriously suffering financial difficulty due to the effects of fansubbing (someone please correct me if I read wrong on that)
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From the various forums I saw, I got the general impression that Odex offer extremely poor quality releases. Although of course, that could be just the anime fans in Singapore letting out their anger and making it up, but I doubt that somehow.

If they were suffering financially, it seems like using fansubs was a good scapegoat for them, and it worked.
The owner of the company seems like a complete idiot however, here's a comedy quote from the idiot himself: (xysing is Mr. Sing - the owner of Odex)

Xysing_2monthsagolo.jpg


Looking through the Wikipedia entry, apparently they started making better quality releases in 2005, although the neutrality of the article is disputed so either that's biast towards Odex, or against Odex, so who knows - unless someone from Singapore can post their opinion on Odex's products.
 
Unless the anime has already been licensed, I don't see any problems with fansubs. If I liked the anime, I buy the DVDs. If I didn't like it, I delete it.
CitizenGeek said:
I will admit to using fansubs, but I don't agree with them at all.
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Sorry, but that just makes no sense to me.
 
Odex do indeed sound pretty nasty, i'm glad that we haven't had anything like that over here yet. Its ok if the response is widespread and the anime distributors all decide to make a stand, that way the downloaders get the idea but Odex seemed to do the legally right thing for the wrong reasons - bad idea.

EDIT: I've been doing some thinking and I think what a lot of people forget about anime is that you really do take a risk with each purchase unless you decide to rent or fansub (and i dont know about you but my local rental store stocks ZERO anime) Its not like going to watch a film or even buy a DVD of a film where you're only wasting between 5 and 10 pounds. There is big money involved here.
Factor in the fact that most anime seasons last on average between 13 and 26 episodes, with things like Gundam pushing 50 and the monumental heavyweights of Naruto and Bleach in their hundreds and you have to realise that you're taking a huge risk buying something which will in the long run cost you at least £50.

I know you can just decide to purchase a couple of volumes and then decide from then on but isnt that a rather shallow approach to purchasing anime? Eva's early episodes are nothing like the final ones - in fact most anime that pops into my head has a very up and down history as it runs its course so its unfair to expect fans to purchase a good 20 episodes after only watching 3-4.
And what with the UKs sparse showing of any anime on television we can't exactly catch a season on TV and then decide to buy it later like Lost, Scrubs, Family Guy etc etc. I havent really delved into that new anime channel on Sky - i dont have Sky anyway but is the selection any good? And moreover is it really fair to expect people to pay...what is it for sky? £40 a month for a channel which might show one or two animes you actually enjoy? (Yes i know theres other channels but i only found myself choosing challenge for Takeshi's Castle and occasionally a film or music channel.

Im not defending rampant fansubbing, im just giving some reasons for why people turn to it instead of this misguided notion that everyone wants everything for free. Here in the UK its more a case of i cant get it over here/its too pricey to take the risk on a series ive never seen before.
 
Wow, it’s nice to see that I’ve triggered a good discussion on here. I’ve been a bit worried about the lack of good anime chat on here recently.

When I first posted earlier I wasn’t in a particularly good mood as I was troubled by my football clubs insane dismissal of their manager and I took it out on fan-subbers and down-loaders. But having just got back home after seeing Wigan pull off one of the greatest comebacks in rugby league history at Bradford I’m now happy to hug fan-subbers and down-loaders.

I still firmly believe it’s wrong but I’m prepared to understand some of the reasons for it and accept it without further complaint. As a few people have pointed out, watching an episode or two to get a feel for a show is fine as long as it is then either knocked on the head or bought legitimately.
 
Ive always made a point of purchasing everything I've downloaded via fansubs. Ive even bought the frankenstein version of Macross as its appears to be the only legitimate way to get it in this region.

I could go on about the merits of actually rewarding people for creating something I care about but I think its been covered already. Personally I own a nice television and surround sound system and prefer watching my favourite shows on it. The set up also makes it a lot easier to encourage my friends to like the good stuff aswell and thus I spread the cause.
You'd be surprised how many advantages a couch has over a free youtube broadcast.

Although that brings up another interesting question. How many of you have made it your mission to go out an buy something you borrowed from a friend? Granted its not on the same scale but thats the thing about principles isnt it.

To date there is only one series that I havent purchased. But in my defence I blame play.com for teasing me without end:
http://www.play.com/DVD/DVD/4-/3323879/Fullmetal-Alchemist-Season-1/Product.html
 
Yes, I will admit to using Fansubs. And why I use them, its because I lack the funding to buy Anime on DVDs.

Its very expensive for me to buy Anime DVDs. But I still try to buy DVDs, but mostly Boxsets. Cause they are more easier to collect.

I will never stop watching Fansubs until they lower the price and release more Boxsets. I ain't greedy, but at least I'm doing my part as a UK anime fan and go out buying the DVDs.
 
Fansubbing is piracy. The original creators of the anime do not benefit directly from fansubs, nor have they given their permission for their shows to be fansubbed. For that reason fansubbing is not just illegal, it's morally wrong too.

What I do dislike about fansub fans though, is the general attitude that people are somehow entitled to watch anime for free, or at all for that matter. Liquid Skin's argument about risk, is this same attitude simply stated in a more reasonable way. Can't afford to pay new release prices for DVDs? Well wait for sales then, or rent on line, or get sky. Both anime central and anime network are free to air, you don't need a subscription to watch them. Can't even afford that? Well get a new hobby. The Japanese have to pay cable subscriptions (or rent DVD releases) to watch most of their anime, and they're the ones that all this anime in being made for.

Having said that downloading fansubs is excusable. A lot of anime fans are students with little to nor income to buy a medium which is more expensive than mainstream TV series. Furthermore, a lot of people regard fansubs as a substitiute for anime on TV, which is fine so long as they support the industry by buying DVDs or mechandise when they can and by not keeping fansubs of licensed shows.

Does the industry lose out because people use fansubs in this way? The honest answer is no one knows. We're talking about hypotheticals and opportunity cost here, and because of this there's no way we can get a definitive answer to that question. The ultimate answer is probably that some shows (i.e. the good ones) benefit from the buzz that fansub previewing brings, whilst many shows lose out. Whether those two influences result in a net gain or a net loss in sales is a question no one can answer.
 
If an English company licenced Lupin III then I'd buy the DVD's with no hesitation. Until then I'm left with little option...
 
Personally i'm all for fan subbing.
I'm an impatient bastard and a student.
I think for people who wanna give it a go and can't afford it theres no harm, helps expand the audience etc.
I do buy anime dvd's when i love a series and when i can afford it.
I'm not gunna rent it!
I don't watch a lot of fan subs, actually i havn't seen any in years
but this moral high ground about it makes me laugh.
In a perfect world everyone would buy anime dvd's and the francise would prosper, unfortunately thats no the case and it's not going to stop. As long as the people who buy official dvd's carry on doing so they can keep there moral high ground and support the francise but leave others to do what they want because its their choice and your ranting will not change a thing.
Are those people who are against fansubs against friends lending anime dvd's off friends? different subject i know but in a way it relates, just wondered.
 
LukasROAR said:
Are those people who are against fansubs against friends lending anime dvd's off friends? different subject i know but in a way it relates, just wondered.
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Very good point to all those squeaky-clean people with a superiority complex.

MTW said:
The friends thing is that you are still watching and not pay :p

But unless you have 10,000 it's not gonna hurt the companies :p
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Hey you could be very popular! One friend showing it to 20 friends, they show their friends...you have a epidemic!

The original creators of the anime do not benefit directly from fansubs,
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Umm, yes they do, maybe not as overtly if its already been licensed (the old why buy what you've already saw - but that argument is moot from the posts of the people here who have all said they'd buy the series when its out/enough money) but for stuff that hasn't reached the country yet it generates interest, interest breeds demand and demand precursors money which we all know is what the Japanese companies love.

And to Narutov - it doesnt matter if they're new releases, its nigh impossible to find any popular boxset series for under £40 (barring GITS SAC, at least to my knowledge) Anime titles do not degenerate in price with age and sales are pretty rare, look at Eva, £12 is the cheapest i've found to buy 1 volume (don't try HMV they're out of stock) making it around £80-£100 to buy the entire series. I know i'm taking the extreme example, the most expensive and well-known anime series there is but others do little better, as a rule a boxset series of anime costs around £35-£40 for 13 episodes. People who throw away their money like that at something they've never seen before have more money than sense.

I have resolved to only buy UK anime DVDs to try and encourage the market over here. If people complain that fansubbing destroys the market what about imports? The UK market gains nothing from it and if we go along the same cognitive route as "no-one wants to buy something they've already seen" then we can go by the rule "no-one wants to buy something for £10-20 more, with less special features and a worse dub/sub."

Bleh im tired and not making much sense, im just trying to say that imports can be just as destructive as fansubs and yet you dont see the same moral dilemma over that. The only difference between the two is that imports are systematically destroying a specific market rather than fansubs which does a even spread.
 
Liquid Skin said:
I have resolved to only buy UK anime DVDs to try and encourage the market over here. If people complain that fansubbing destroys the market what about imports? The UK market gains nothing from it and if we go along the same cognitive route as "no-one wants to buy something they've already seen" then we can go by the rule "no-one wants to buy something for £10-20 more, with less special features and a worse dub/sub."
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I see importing as a positive thing. American licensing companies are bound take notice eventually when they see that people from the UK import a large number of anime that they never planned to release in the UK, or planned to release at a later date.

Besides, even if UK anime DVDs were stopped, there are decently priced region 1 DVDs from various UK websites. And let's face it; we get seriously ripped off for UK anime DVDs.
 
Hmmm, Just been wondering something that came up with the recent convo.
I mainly buy off UP1, which is an English company. They get imported titles from the US and UK titles. Just wanted to note/ask:

1) Does that mean that the US get the better deal if we buy Region 1 DVDs, but a British company sells it? (I'd think British companies would raise the price slightly because of import taxes.)
2) Does that also mean that it's good for UK market advertising? (To buy things in Region 1, but catch the eye of Region 2 DVDs etc. is surely improving the UK anime/manga market.)

As for Noratav's last paragraph, it's business that the better/bigger companies have the advantage with money and facilities. But if the others are any good, then the people in Japan would watch the show, then there'd be a buzz, then it would be considered exported (possibly licenced by the big dubbers/licencing companies.)
So, for smaller companies, it could go either they get more recognition from fansubs and the buzz gets bigger, or the company loses because not enough customers wnt to buy it. I'd say it's like clutching straws of success and failure. Depending on it's Popularity:Export Interest:Fansub Piracy ratio, the companies have to balance this out.

In other words, it a whole mess of calculative risks. Fansubs are a good and evil element (like a double edged sword), depending on the attitudes of downloaders, companies and pure-bred fans.
 
“Until they bring down the price of Flat Screen TV,s, Italian sports cars, bottles of malt whisky and other expensive items I’ll continue to steal themâ€
 
Maxon said:
I see importing as a positive thing. American licensing companies are bound take notice eventually when they see that people from the UK import a large number of anime that they never planned to release in the UK, or planned to release at a later date.

Besides, even if UK anime DVDs were stopped, there are decently priced region 1 DVDs from various UK websites. And let's face it; we get seriously ripped off for UK anime DVDs.
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Ahh good point - i didn't think about that

Yeah, it would be nice to see something a lil extra for the extra we pay but hey thats how economies work. I can't really see anime ever becoming widespread in the UK. The mindset is just too rigid over here and so anime will forever remain a niche market - at least "true" anime which sticks to its roots. Some stuff will always come along to break the mould every now and then like Cowboy Bebop but until then we're stuck with the major price for a minority product.

Fansubbers dont feel like they are entitled to anime otherwise they'd just watch the ep and not buy the dvds, there's loyalty there. Just as you'd ask to test drive that expensive italian car or rent that flat screen fansubbers are renting the only way they possibly can. Fansubbers could install a timeout for the episode so you could only watch it once and intergrate some anti-burning technology - you cant stop everyone but you'd stop the majority. Even just down to releasing poor quality, badly subbed vids would make some anime fans buy the dvds. Theres a huge amount of things the fansubbers or even the companies could do with minimal effort to reduce fansubbing or point the fans in the direction of the dvds.

On a side note, has the legality of torrents been defined yet? The last i heard it was still a backdoor seeing as you were only downloading pieces of information and not an entire file. A lot of people have been arrested but thepiratebay, one of the biggest torrent trackers was taken down and then was up and running a couple days later!
I know we have these cases of X people fined for Y but most of the time this is bully boy tactics employed by the companies, internet piracy (of which fansubbing is inevitably a part of) is still in its infant stages so is it actually illegal? The last time i checked i think possession without the original was illlegal (but with virtual spaces and the advent of downloading games even a physical original is no longer the only original you can have) but the actual distribution method wasn't.

Basically are torrents actually illegal? Most sites get away with legal grey area but I have no idea. I know it doesn't change the moral argument but it will the legal argument.

On a funny side note renting/try before you buy is the bigger loophole. Practically all electronics enforce a try before you buy, thereby enabling you to watch tv on a huge 60" tv for nothing, just take it back before it runs out and get a different make. I once bought a game, completed it within the week and made use of the 7 day return policy - completed about 3 or 4 games before i felt guilty and stuck with the last one. :roll:
 
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