Fan-subs; the root of all evil?

[Zen 2nd]

I wonder,

What if a company came along and made fansubbing legal?

For instance all the well known fansubbers come under the one name, but there is a slight difference in how they distribute the anime. For example this company is able to work with Japanese companies and even get high quality versions of anime for them to sub. BUT to keep a balance, only the first episode is available to watch streamed at any time and anytime a new episode is released it replaces the last episode and all episodes are streamed(Streaming in other words means like YouTube, thus you can't download it).

Its just the thought I have at the moment.

 

[Gacha]

I wonder,

What if a company came along and made fansubbing legal?

For instance all the well known fansubbers come under the one name, but there is a slight difference in how they distribute the anime. For example this company is able to work with Japanese companies and even get high quality versions of anime for them to sub. BUT to keep a balance, only the first episode is available to watch streamed at any time and anytime a new episode is released it replaces the last episode and all episodes are streamed(Streaming in other words means like YouTube, thus you can't download it).

Its just the thought I have at the moment.

Fan subbing isn't illegal if you have brought the rights to it or even tape'd it and put it on your computer(i think),Distribution of the copies though are, subtitled or not.
I'll take it your not all to familiar with certain firefox plugins and hyper cam which allow you to either film whats going on your pc or download from youtube and various other stream sites.
If you release certain high quality to subtitle you pretty much give up your rights to copyright protection thus making it free ware.

 

[Ramadahl]

Ho hum, fansub topic again ^^

No one's forced to join in or even read it if they don't want to.

If no subjects were ever revisited this would be a very very quite website. It would probably need to be renamed the 'Ever Enduring Forum Games' website.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wasn't complaining. If I thought it was a bad idea to start it again I wouldn't have posted anything ^^

Something else that occurred to me was that quite a few people have suggested that if more anime was sold here that the prices of DVD's may drop. I would also think that if the market grew, there would be a greater number of series licensed in the west. This might help counter the argument that many series don't ever make it over here.

Well... yes, certainly. There's just the sliiiight problem of getting people to buy more anime in the first place. Also, to be fair, nowadays we are getting the majority of series that make it out of Japan over here as well anyway.

 

[Zen 2nd]

I wonder,

What if a company came along and made fansubbing legal?

For instance all the well known fansubbers come under the one name, but there is a slight difference in how they distribute the anime. For example this company is able to work with Japanese companies and even get high quality versions of anime for them to sub. BUT to keep a balance, only the first episode is available to watch streamed at any time and anytime a new episode is released it replaces the last episode and all episodes are streamed(Streaming in other words means like YouTube, thus you can't download it).

Its just the thought I have at the moment.

Fan subbing isn't illegal if you have brought the rights to it or even tape'd it and put it on your computer(i think),Distribution of the copies though are, subtitled or not.
I'll take it your not all to familiar with certain firefox plugins and hyper cam which allow you to either film whats going on your pc or download from youtube and various other stream sites.
If you release certain high quality to subtitle you pretty much give up your rights to copyright protection thus making it free ware.

Fansubbers don't buy the rights to the anime though.

If you record the show and keep it for personal use only that is fine. Once the video is posted on the internet, free or not, that is illegal.

I do know of those plugins and screen recorder software, though to combat this you would first have to register to the site and download a specific player which would stop you from using screen capture programs.

Regarding copyright, they would keep all copyright to the show, we merely have permission to show the episode for a week, similar to how a cinema shows movies but doesn't actually own the rights to the movies.

This is all just a thought though, please remember that

 

[melonpan]

The problem is that although some people download a few episodes with the intention of checking out a series there are many people who are putting nothing back. I suppose it's impossible to even guess the numbers of regular downloaders but I imagine that it comfortably outnumbers those that buy DVD's.

I think you'd be quite right to say that, considering Dattebayo's version of Naruto has something like nearly 850,000 downloads (for the first Naruto Shippuden episode), and nearly 600,000 for some Bleach episodes.
Then Eclipse have like 1xx,000 downloads for lots of their series, which are less mainstream.

I do think there is something about Dattebayo however.
Viz have apparently not sent a C+D letter to them (as far as the general public know), for any of their releases, and they insist on not putting download counters on their movie releases. I think something's going on - of course we'll never know.

I really do think that it would be a great move if the industry took fansubbers in a different light. If Viz forced Dattebayo to put adverts for the official discs on their episodes/website, I think it would help greatly.
I think distributors/producers need to stop fighting fansubs and work with them - it's the only way, because let's face it, fansubbing will never stop, unless anime stops being produced.

 

[awadama]

I really do think that it would be a great move if the industry took fansubbers in a different light. If Viz forced Dattebayo to put adverts for the official discs on their episodes/website, I think it would help greatly.

You think so?

If people are going to this site to get stuff for free, why would some banner ads suddenly make them grow a conscience and decide to start paying for it? =/

 

[Sakimori]

I really do think that it would be a great move if the industry took fansubbers in a different light. If Viz forced Dattebayo to put adverts for the official discs on their episodes/website, I think it would help greatly.

You think so?

If people are going to this site to get stuff for free, why would some banner ads suddenly make them grow a conscience and decide to start paying for it? =/

I think it would be more a case of Viz *or whatever other company* not being able to accuse them of stealing they're profit with such strong arguments as the fansubbers could say "but we advertise your products, we can't actually make our fans buy them but we've done all we can to encourage them to do so."

 

[Gacha]

I really do think that it would be a great move if the industry took fansubbers in a different light. If Viz forced Dattebayo to put adverts for the official discs on their episodes/website, I think it would help greatly.

You think so?

If people are going to this site to get stuff for free, why would some banner ads suddenly make them grow a conscience and decide to start paying for it? =/

I think it would be more a case of Viz *or whatever other company* not being able to accuse them of stealing they're profit with such strong arguments as the fansubbers could say "but we advertise your products, we can't actually make our fans buy them but we've done all we can to encourage them to do so."

Unless the fan subbers actually forced someone to buy the product and prove they brought it then fact is it's still disturbuting copyrighted material.
The only reason fan subbers aren't being sued left right and center is because they make no profit and are fairly reasonable when asked to cease disturbition.
Also the other reason fan subbers aren't being sued is because there usually broke uni students with next to no assets.

 

[Aethelwulf]

erm, sorry to bump an old topic but seemed like a semi-suitable place to ask, I did do a search on this but couldn't really find anything that helps so. This is mostly in regards to Bleach but obviously would apply to others as well.

As I understand it there's basically 5 options in terms of getting anime:

UK Tv (not very likely), UK DvD's, American R.1 DvD's, Fansubs from streaming and fansubs downloaded via torrent or what have you.

Now I'm just wondering how this all fits together with something like Bleach say, cause as I understand it, Bleach is liscensed here right? Yet there are no UK DvD's (least i haven't found anything of the sort), No showing on UK TV, and to be honest I'm against importing it (besides which I can't be bothered going through the fuss of getting a player to play region 1 dvd's).

So Basically - how exactly am I supposed to watch Bleach legally, if it is not available in anything for american form in this country? (the streaming and torrent options being illigal since it's lscensed here)

And also, well, I'm quite new to the whole anime side of things but, alot of friends who've watched it for years go on and on about how the US/UK versions are often changed from the original, sometimes the storylines are totally butchered etc Just wondering how much of that is true etc.

 

[KingJimmeh]

You might want to think of a different example, as Bleach is shown everynight at half 9 on Anime Central (Sky: 199). The first DVD vol is also being released in October or November.

 

[Gawyn]

erm, sorry to bump an old topic but seemed like a semi-suitable place to ask, I did do a search on this but couldn't really find anything that helps so. This is mostly in regards to Bleach but obviously would apply to others as well.

As I understand it there's basically 5 options in terms of getting anime:

UK Tv (not very likely), UK DvD's, American R.1 DvD's, Fansubs from streaming and fansubs downloaded via torrent or what have you.

Now I'm just wondering how this all fits together with something like Bleach say, cause as I understand it, Bleach is liscensed here right? Yet there are no UK DvD's (least i haven't found anything of the sort), No showing on UK TV, and to be honest I'm against importing it (besides which I can't be bothered going through the fuss of getting a player to play region 1 dvd's).

So Basically - how exactly am I supposed to watch Bleach legally, if it is not available in anything for american form in this country? (the streaming and torrent options being illigal since it's lscensed here)

And also, well, I'm quite new to the whole anime side of things but, alot of friends who've watched it for years go on and on about how the US/UK versions are often changed from the original, sometimes the storylines are totally butchered etc Just wondering how much of that is true etc.

Bleach is on UK TV every night at 9:30PM; Manga Entertainment has the UK rights to the DVDs with distribution of those due to begin in November; you could get R1s and the fansubs are illegal.

 

[Ramadahl]

(the streaming and torrent options being illigal since it's lscensed here)

Just to note, it doesn't matter in a sense whether something's licensed here or not - it's illegal either way.

And also, well, I'm quite new to the whole anime side of things but, alot of friends who've watched it for years go on and on about how the US/UK versions are often changed from the original, sometimes the storylines are totally butchered etc Just wondering how much of that is true etc.

Almost never happens, and hasn't happened for many years, I think. The most recent bit of editing I can recall was the ending of Beck changed slightly to make up for the fact they couldn't get the rights to use a Beatles song in the UK?

If you want to watch Bleach, as others have said your legitimate options are getting sky tv, waiting a few weeks for the dvds, or importing.

 

[Zentron]

Well I'm one of those people who download fansubs, but I do buy the DVDs as well when they get released here... minus the Dragonball Z DVDs that came out here, yuk... anyway, if it wasn't for the fansubs, there would have been a lot of titles that I wouldn't have even bothered with.

As for copyright... a very awkward thing it is. Not illegal until you charge a fee or you claim it as your own work and it's up to the person who owns the copyright to bring the assailants to the courts... apart from that, the gray area is quite large!

 

[Fellistowe]

As for copyright... a very awkward thing it is. Not illegal until you charge a fee or you claim it as your own work and it's up to the person who owns the copyright to bring the assailants to the courts... apart from that, the gray area is quite large!

I'll have to correct you there, its not grey at all. Money changing hands has no bearing on it, an artist has full copyright protection over his goods.
You sentence above caries the misconception that fansub is not illegal because its free, we have to be absolutely clear than fansub is illegal, free or not.
The bit about the copyright owned having to be the one to do the chasing is definitely right though, and that's half of the problem why fansub seems to be going out of control nowadays.

While I'm passing through, just raising a question (apologies if its elsewhere in this thread, rush post during lunch break):
Has anyone noticed that the fansub groups nowadays all seem to be fighting to sub the big name mainstream titles that are much more likely to get licensed, and the other more obscure titles are tending to get left by the wayside?
One of the defining ethics behind the fansub community used to be to bring the diversity of anime culture to the west, and help us see things we would never normally see over here.
If everyone's fighting to sub a series that's pretty much guaranteed to come over anyway, doesn't that say something's wrong?

 

[Gawyn]

As for copyright... a very awkward thing it is. Not illegal until you charge a fee or you claim it as your own work and it's up to the person who owns the copyright to bring the assailants to the courts... apart from that, the gray area is quite large!

That is not true. It is illegal to distribute without the express permission of the copyright holder. It is a copyright ie the right to copy and redistribute. Charging for it does not make it more or less right in the eyes of the law but attempting to mislead people into believing the product you are selling is legitimate and true is counterfeiting and has a more severe punishment.

 

[Zentron]

That is not true. It is illegal to distribute without the express permission of the copyright holder. It is a copyright ie the right to copy and redistribute. Charging for it does not make it more or less right in the eyes of the law but attempting to mislead people into believing the product you are selling is legitimate and true is counterfeiting and has a more severe punishment.

I think the second part of your reply is a good idea for a new thread!

So it's illegal, if so.. why do we see fansubs all over the net? The fact that the subbers are usually jobless uni students is a bit besides the point, it's illegal as you said, so all fansubs should have been wiped from the face of the Earth, the subbers arrested, fined or jailed! Too costly for the copyright holders to go to town on their arses, or more costly for to let the subbers carry on? So why is it all allowed to continue? It's an illegal act as you have stated and all illegal acts are punishable are they not? So why not? Answers please!

 

[melonpan]

If everyone's fighting to sub a series that's pretty much guaranteed to come over anyway, doesn't that say something's wrong?

I think it does, it seems that the ethics of fansubbing (ethics? fansub code might be a better phrase) has dissapeared. All I can think is that they must be making money out of doing it, somehow, I mean some fansubbers spend all day everyday working on fansubs and I'm sure they can't all be living off benefits with no job. There are quite a few fansubbers who still abide by the 'fansub code' though.

 

[harkins]

Excuse my ignorance but do the places where fan-subs are downloaded from feature various adds and pop ups? If so, they would be some source of income, if only a very small one.

 

[melonpan]

Excuse my ignorance but do the places where fan-subs are downloaded from feature various adds and pop ups? If so, they would be some source of income, if only a very small one.

That's a good question actually. Just looking at them, the ones that do follow the 'fansub code' have no ads, but Shinsen-subs do, loads of google ads, and a pop-up everytime you load their front page : o.
Dattebayo offer "professional services" but have no ads. Don't know about the others.

 

[Fellistowe]

So it's illegal, if so.. why do we see fansubs all over the net? The fact that the subbers are usually jobless uni students is a bit besides the point, it's illegal as you said, so all fansubs should have been wiped from the face of the Earth, the subbers arrested, fined or jailed! Too costly for the copyright holders to go to town on their arses, or more costly for to let the subbers carry on? So why is it all allowed to continue? It's an illegal act as you have stated and all illegal acts are punishable are they not? So why not? Answers please!

Anime fandom, life on the edge, life fast, die young....

Seriously though, here in the west it's the job of the respective licence holder to do the footwork in chasing down the fansub groups.
Since the anime scene in the west grew up on fansub, and it's still a fundamental part of it, the distro's just aren't willing to alienate the fanbase by chasing down the sub groups. It's also not an easy task, as it's a logistical nightmare proving any single individual is ever guilty of it (ever see a fansubber use their real name and give a contact address?)
Things are starting to change though, the recent action by Funimation acting on behalf of Gonzo to send a "cease and desist" letter to Shinsen-Subs over RomeoxJuliet shows that the big boys are getting less afraid to act.
Don't be surprised if all the western distros start getting more serious about fansub and bootleg.

That's a good question actually. Just looking at them, the ones that do follow the 'fansub code' have no ads, but Shinsen-subs do, loads of google ads, and a pop-up everytime you load their front page : o.
Dattebayo offer "professional services" but have no ads. Don't know about the others.

It's a serious worry. Fansubs survived so long on the principle of "not for profit". If the groups start trying to get greedy and turn a nice profit, then they are effectively setting themselves up as bootleggers. Not a good way to go....