Fan-subs; the root of all evil?
- Thread starter harkins
- Start date
Liquid Skin said:
No they don't, Creators benefit indirectly, from the exposure to the work that fansubs bring. But they do not benefit directly (in financial terms) which is what really matters. Anime, like most TV or Film, has a dual purpose to entertain and/or inform and to make money. Nor, more importantly, have they given their consent for you to download. In moral terms that is more important than whether the creators have benefited or not.
Liquid Skin
Magical Girl
Hehe you see what i mean though don't ya? Not illegal but highly immoral!
My crime is worse than downloading something and then buying it a couple weeks later (at least in my misguided immoral opinion) Its a weak argument of "theres worse things out there" but hey, isn't that the justification for just about everything today?
My crime is worse than downloading something and then buying it a couple weeks later (at least in my misguided immoral opinion) Its a weak argument of "theres worse things out there" but hey, isn't that the justification for just about everything today?
Liquid Skin
Magical Girl
Noratav said:
Ok, you admit that the creators benefit from the exposure of their work but at the same time they don't financially? I'd say that the two are entwined within each other - exposure inevitably brings cash flow, obviously if you have a hulking distributor who can squeeze the fans for all they've you'll get more but regardless the artist will still receive an income.
Besides correct me if im wrong (i swear ignorance on this area so i could be well out there) but don't the artists and creators of anime receive a fixed salary? They dont get a percentage when the series becomes a smash hit, they just have to stick with that standard salary they received while creating it and hope that the exposure of their skills warrant a larger salary with the next series etc.
Now DVD sales speak volumes (as shown with Family guy - resurrected twice wasnt it?) But with the birth of the net thousands, millions of people can write to companies easily and quickly to show their support, they can of course buy the DVDs as well and should - but im just saying that DVD sales are not the only way to show your support for an artist - its mainly your way of showing support of the distributor over anything else funnily enough.
As to whether they've given their permission - that differs from creator to creator, most musicians i've spoken to couldn't give a flying.....flop about music piracy as at the end of the day people are listening to their music - they gain popularity, more of their gigs sell out and thus they gain huge record deals. But hey i havent had much of a chance to talk with those involved in anime production so they could be a different breed.
Anyways i feel we're drifting into permanent piracy here not fansubbing, And looking back at this post i'm very confused.
I'm not defending piracy, i'm defending the use of fansubs if used for rental purposes. They should not be kept on your hard drive or burnt to dvd and you should deleted after viewing them. Proper use of fansubs - ie you watch and then buy brings both exposure and cash flow. Win win situation,
I've heard some of the creators of certain anime want people to view their creation in any way possible.
I don't have time to write more, but just a note to Liquid Skin - I don't think the storing of anime on your computer has anything to do with it, your thought on using fansubs as rental is fair enough, but you can rent something and burn it onto the computer as well so I don't think deleting the fansub after viewing matters. And besides, I prefer to watch things "fansub-style" in general, because the fansubs I download have a lot of love put into them, and the video quality is very good (and solving the problems on DVDs sometimes), and of course you have karaoke, notes, and original Japanese credits and such things... This is kind of getting a little off-topic now, but I just wanted to add my opinion, as seems to be what is happening in this thread.
I don't have time to write more, but just a note to Liquid Skin - I don't think the storing of anime on your computer has anything to do with it, your thought on using fansubs as rental is fair enough, but you can rent something and burn it onto the computer as well so I don't think deleting the fansub after viewing matters. And besides, I prefer to watch things "fansub-style" in general, because the fansubs I download have a lot of love put into them, and the video quality is very good (and solving the problems on DVDs sometimes), and of course you have karaoke, notes, and original Japanese credits and such things... This is kind of getting a little off-topic now, but I just wanted to add my opinion, as seems to be what is happening in this thread.
ConanThe3rd
Railgun
An dthen what of the latest shows? I defy your logic thein! No geting all of that for £20.harkins said:
Fellistowe
Kiznaiver
Liquid Skin said:
hmm, I'm a little unsure exactly what your asking there. If your asking "is the electronic distribution method employed in torrenting" illegal, then I can see the grey area since it's just a distribution method (although there is a matter of dispute that torrent software classifies as an "automatic reproducing machine" and so breaks copyright law in that instance).
The information it's distributing is illegal though.
There are still quite a few people who seem to believe that fansub is somehow legal, but it most definitely is illegal.
Almost all countries nowadays are signed up to some form of international copyright agreement (the Berne Convention being the most famous), and this basically means that the creator has full copyright protection over their created goods in any country that follows these agreements.
Since fansub groups don't have a nice bit of paper from the creator saying "yes, I give you permission to distribute my works" then it's illegal, no if, buts, or maybe's. So going back to your torrent question, even if the torrent distribution process is legal, the person putting the torrent up doesn't have permission to do so, and since a person downloading doesn't have any consumer protection by receiving illegally distributed material they can pretty much hammer you too
If you also wanted to follow this process to it's n'th degree, then 99.9 percent of anime wallpapers, avatars, sigs, screencaps and AMV's are also illegal. Sucks to be an anime fan sometimes.
We are all breaking the law to some extent, but you'll find the distro's will only make a fuss about it when it starts to cause noticeable damage to the industry, or your quite blatantly taking the piss
The fact that the distro's both in the US and the UK are starting to make noises that fansub is a concern (and UK con's have been told they can't show fansub anymore) tends to suggest the damage is becoming more evident.
It's worth noting as well that if your selling bootleg in the UK and can be traced, the distro's will come down heavy on your ass.
Anyways, for a bit of further reading, try this ANN article, and the wiki on copyright law.
It wasn’t meant to be logic. It was just a point that not all anime is expensive.Conan-san said:
I’m quite surprised that you’ve not even heard of Madlax or Kino’s Journey. Especially Kino’s Journey as it is pretty well thought of in the main and has been discussed on here once or twice in the not so distant past. But then we can’t all have heard of every series made.Taylor said:
To say that the ‘best stuff’ is expensive is a bit sweeping. For one thing, what’s best is objective and for another it is certainly not the case that the best stuff is necessarily the latest stuff. Anime doesn’t come with expiry dates.
If you want something more quickly (and legally), you will 99% of the time pay more. If you want to pay less then you wait for it to depreciate in value. This is economically true for everything, not just anime. Being impatient and expecting entertainment for free (or near as damn it) are not good excuses for essentially stealing something. If you want a luxury item quickly then be willing to pay the going rate for it; otherwise you are down to waiting for it to become affordable to you.Conan-san said:
Liquid Skin
Magical Girl
What about antiques? Hehe come on you left yourself wide open there
Radio is free. Aside from the one off minuscule payment for a radio you can then listen to top class entertainment for free. I know its not the same but the idea that good entertainment costs money is false. In fact you could say radio is the biggest scam of all, they have some of the best scripts of any media and yet dont charge you a penny for the service.
Thanks a lot for the information there Fellistowe. Don't worry, i wasn't particularly sure what i was asking either!
Anyways you've been incredibly helpful, i'll be sure to follow those links of yours and do some more research, particularly your point about anime wallpapers, crazy times we live in eh?
I'm gonna bow out of this debate for a while, i've said my peace and said a hellofalot anyway lot so its time to let some other people take a shot
Good debate people, keep it moving.
True Ryo Chan. But older console games are rarely wanted by anyone, so it’s no surprise that they are virtually giving them away. Look at NGE. That’s now 12 years old but (a lot) people still think it’s excellent and many people are prepared to pay £70 to get it in a tin box. I know little or nothing about gaming but I’d be surprised if there would be anyone prepared to pay £70 for a 12 year old game even if it did come in a tin box.Ryo Chan said:
Most DVDs (anime or otherwise) sell quickest on the first week or two of release. Sales quickly take a downturn after that. There is the odd exception but that is the general trend.harkins said:
Radio is not free. In the UK it is part paid for by the (TV) licence fee and is funded by adverts and phone-in competitions for commercial stations. You may not pay directly for it but you pay all the same (listening is essentially how you pay since the more popular the radio station the more they can expect to get in revenue from advertisers).Liquid Skin said:
Liquid Skin
Magical Girl
Gawyn said:
Excuse me? Do i physically have to write a cheque to the BBC to listen to Radio 4? Am i forced to phone in on the competitions or pay attention to the adverts? I could live in a caravan, not pay the TV license, listen to the radio and, (thankfully) not be thrown in jail (though it would make a good story - "man thrown in jail for listening to radio without license")
My point was that you - the receiver do not directly pay the provider. You can decide to indirectly support them through buying something on an advert they air or phone in on a competition but this is still a "free" service on the consumer end.
Ah, certainly :wink:DaNiMe-sama said:
At one point when I had the cash, I started to buy anime series based on hearsay, reviews, etc. I bought... Ninja Scroll, Escaflowne, Tenchi Muyo, NTHT, Tsukihime, Memories... probably a few I forget... but the point is that when I actually sat down to watch them, it turned out I didn't like them for the most part.
Now, with a few exceptions such as Paprika or GitS 2nd Gig where there was already good precedent, I don't buy DVDs blind like that at all. I absolutely refused to after spending so much cash, and getting so little.
By previewing series via fansubs, I can find out if it's something I'll want to pick up. This way, I bought series like Paranoia Agent and GSG that I wouldn't have bought otherwise, thus supporting the industry. Of course, there were some series I checked out vis fansubs that I then didn't pick up because I didn't think they were worth it - but then as I wasn't going to buy the DVDs anyway, there's no loss to the industry.
With fansubs of unlicensed series that remain unlicensed, I see no problem at all in downloading the fansubs. How would it advantage anyone if Zettai Shounen was totally unknown, unseen, outside Japan? Besides, if they want my cash it's simple enough - just have the series released over here ^^
No one's forced to join in or even read it if they don't want to.Ramadahl said:
If no subjects were ever revisited this would be a very very quite website. It would probably need to be renamed the 'Ever Enduring Forum Games' website.
ps I really seem to have 'got one on me' at the moment. I'm sure it'll pass soon.
There definitely seems to be two differing approaches to downloading. The responsible use approach of sampling anime with a view to purchase and the simply watching all the series' you can with no intention of ever buying anything.
The problem is that although some people download a few episodes with the intention of checking out a series there are many people who are putting nothing back. I suppose it's impossible to even guess the numbers of regular downloaders but I imagine that it comfortably outnumbers those that buy DVD's.
Something else that occurred to me was that quite a few people have suggested that if more anime was sold here that the prices of DVD's may drop. I would also think that if the market grew, there would be a greater number of series licensed in the west. This might help counter the argument that many series don't ever make it over here.