Currency vs Brexit: GBP Losses

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I don't think it would make much of a difference in % terms from the vote on the day, actually. Of course, "not much of a difference" could still be enough to swing it. Especially when you consider that the postal vote (for which the submission date came right at the peak of leave support according to polls) accounted for about half the leave majority from about a fifth of the total votes.

Thing is, people don't yet know what they were voting for. There are people who think that what we've seen so far is all the impact that there is going to be. The poor (but somewhat enviable) deluded fools.

And then there are the people (and there are a lot of these) that have been told that Europe is the source of all the ills in the world so many times that they actually believe it...
 
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Are people only now realising that democracy isn't fair? In all honesty though, this one person one vote nationwide referendum was a lot more more democratic than our first-past-the-post, cut into arbitrary geographical area elections to parliament are.

If we were to re-run the referendum I can't say I'd vote the same way either. I'd seriously consider voting leave this time because I'm actually finding myself quite enjoying the excitement of being in uncharted territory where the global elites didn't want us to go. I'm enjoying the fact that Cameron and Osborne are gone. I'm slightly giddy at the possibility of a massive economic catastrophe that might bring Comrade Corbyn to power.

The status quo was quite a boring and safe road really, we're now on an off road track leading somewhere we don't know, if the car flips over and catches fire that's just going to make things more exciting.
 
Direct democracy is the worst form of government there is. I used to be quite fond of the idea back when I was about 12 or 13, but ever since then (and well before referenda even started being suggested all over the place) I've realised that it just doesn't work. And the more you do it, the worse it gets. Your second paragraph is just one of the reasons why it is a bad thing.

A comparison with the (broken) FPTP voting system really doesn't work, as the reasons why they're broken are in completely different ways - FPTP returns a result that the public didn't vote for, whereas direct democracy leaves decisions in the hands of conventional wisdom and instinctive judgements not based on a detailed understanding of the consequences of an outcome - even when this has been thoroughly explained.

Incidentally, you could count the number of arbitrary constituencies at the moment on your hands. A lot of effort is put in to making the constituency boundaries as un-arbitrary as possible. When they do exist, therefore, they tend to be in situations where it's considered that giving a less arbitrary constituency in that area will make things much worse elsewhere, or do something considered unforgivable like putting a constituency over the boundary with England from Scotland, Wales or Cornwall. Things will get a lot worse with the proposed changes, though, as constituency size is being prioritised over things like community and transport links for the first time in history. Wales in particular is going to end up with some very odd constituencies...
 
I think if it's rerun, 16 and 17 year olds should be allowed to vote, but the over 65's shouldn't. Let the people who it's going to affect most have a say, and let the racist coffin dodgers who are going to be dead before it affects them keep out.
 
st_owly said:
I think if it's rerun, 16 and 17 year olds should be allowed to vote, but the over 65's shouldn't. Let the people who it's going to affect most have a say, and let the racist coffin dodgers who are going to be dead before it affects them keep out.
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not sure why 16 and 17 year olds should be allowed to vote, seeing as they cannot vote in general elections, especially as everyone's reasoning is to give what they think will be their preferred result. The over 65 comment is a bit pathetic to be honest. People nowadays are living well into their 80s and 90s so I think they still have some time to see what happens. Also, let's not pretend that any change to freedom of movement will affect them also, seeing as it applies to all UK citizens, not just under 65s.
 
They could vote in the Scottish independence referendum. I think they should be allowed to vote in all elections.

Yes over 65's will be affected by freedom of movement, but to a lesser degree, since they won't be as affected people coming and "taking our jobs" since they're mostly retired. Freedom of movement is probably a net gain for them, especially considering how many people retire to Spain etc.
 
st_owly said:
They could vote in the Scottish independence referendum. I think they should be allowed to vote in all elections.

Yes over 65's will be affected by freedom of movement, but to a lesser degree, since they won't be as affected people coming and "taking our jobs" since they're mostly retired. Freedom of movement is probably a net gain for them, especially considering how many people retire to Spain etc.
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Well, I'll have to disagree on the 16-17 year old thing. I just don't see the need to let them have the vote. We need to focus much more on engaging the 18-24 year olds we are failing to get engaged in politics before involving an even younger age group.

Why to a lesser degree? You just said many people retire to Spain etc. Surely that therefore means it affects them more, without freedom of movement, the prospect of them moving to Spain or Portugal following retirement gets thrown into question surely, and causes uncertainty for Britons already there - I'd say they were the UK citizens with the biggest stake tbh.

Also, I'm not sure what UK youth would be missing out on - aside from Germany, we have the best youth employment rate in the EU.
 
All the economic benefits of being in the EU for one thing. We might have the best employment rate in the EU at the moment, but if we leave, jobs will go. Japan has said as much for one thing.

As for 16-17 year olds, up here, they are very politically engaged, and turnout in that group for the referendum was high. It was their campaigning which got them the vote.. Maybe it's different in England, I don't know.

Re retiring to Spain, it does, but I think young people's job prospects are higher stakes than where someone chooses to retire. You can retire anywhere. If all the jobs go and we can't move to Europe easily, then we're ******...
 
Owly, I think the point at which you start to talk about rigging a vote by allowing people who'd vote your way to vote and preventing people who'd vote the other way from voting you've officially lost the moral high ground. In the US this actually happens with voter ID laws, and doesn't produce a particularly progressive result because the people prevented from voting are usually black. I wouldn't like the authorities in the UK to be in charge of any kind of similar legislation because I imagine the result would be much the same...

Isn't anybody else just willing to wait and see what actually happens before calling for any further action (whichever side of the debate you're on)? I feel like it's entirely possible whatever new deal is thrashed out will have minimal effect on the things that actually matter to people here. Especially if certain things change in Europe to make Brexit voters more comfortable with the idea of say, freedom of movement, which looks like a serious possibility since far right anti-immigration parties are surging all over the place. This is what happens when the leaders ignore their people. 2016 is certainly going to go down in the history books as one of those years the political landscape seriously changed, we haven't seen anything like this in a very long time. There's no point wishing or expecting things to go back to how they used to be, it isn't happening. Things are no longer comfortable or predictable, and if people want to be politically involved they're going to have to find a place in that new landscape or fade into irrelevancy, politicians and activists alike.

I feel like I've been on an interesting political journey with this whole thing, because as someone who used to be quite supportive of the EU a few years back, that support became increasingly grudging in recent times with the essentially hyper-capitalist, poor country ruining, beholden to the financial sector direction it was taking. I still believe in international co-operation being the future, I very much like Yanis Varoufakis' DiEM25 movement (which I remain a member of) and the idea of creating a fairer, more democratic Europe. But I have to seriously ask myself whether the EU can really be transformed into something like that, or whether it's just so far gone that it all needs to be torn down so we can start again.
 
I'm an online journalist and one of my key focuses is events in London, such as MCM Comic Con which very much focuses on being catered to an EU market. The fact the government is willing to gamble the capital's standing as a global cultural hub effects me on various levels and is one of the reasons I both voted Remain and why I'm not content to just sit back and let this happen in a government where no one is representing those of us who voted Remain. Labour is supposed to but Corbyn is screwing that right up.

As for older people- the vote really has changed my views. I used to respect my elders but I feel giving them a vote and not the ones who will have to face a lifetime of this is a huge mistake. Not every older person voted out but the ones who did effectively stole from the younger generation. David Davis was asked about this and said the young had to learn you don't always win in a democracy. Didn't win? They weren't even allowed on the starting block!
 
Not every older person voted out but the ones who did effectively stole from the younger generation. David Davis was asked about this and said the young had to learn you don't always win in a democracy. Didn't win? They weren't even allowed on the starting block!
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18-24 year olds were allowed to vote were they not? The young had their chance to vote but only 36% of them turned out to vote. Even with many campaigns to get them to, which were very engaging, they still didn't turn up.
 
As far as I'm aware, it was revealed the "young barely voted" statistic was proven wrong and was polling data from the last general election.
 
Yes indeed, seems you are correct. It does seem that the figures used by the Guardian were a % of the young people that had registered to vote. So really, we don't know what amount of young people registered to even vote, which could make that 64% figure lower. Even still, young people still didn't turn up to vote as much as older groups did. Considering it's so important to young people like myself, you'd think we'd turn up and rivalled the % turn out of our elders.
 
Hammond saying freedom of movement will be kept...for bankers.

When France pointed out it made little sense to keep EU finance sector in a non EU nation, only then did Hammond take offence.

Our new soon to be unchained government. It values money and the elite more than freedoms of social mobility we've enjoyed for decades.

"A country that works for everyone", eh?
 
So...

Plans to remove our freedom of movement yet keep it for bankers. This includes active attempts to stop the number of foreign students that come here.

Liam Fox has criticised UK business as 'fat and lazy' and said it's not ready to function outside the EU, while he plays a part in removing us from it.

Russia has offered Farage a TV show.

The Leave campaigners left out of the new cabinet have started a pressure group (promoted by Boris) which is telling remain voters to get on board.

There is more planning for May's pet project of grammar schools than Brexit, with every major foreign power saying we'd get no special deals and they would put EU and others before us.

Yay....
 
There is now a far right group of Tory MPs named Leave Means Leave. They advocate getting out of EU ASAP, minus any kind of path to trade deals or similar.

This would be scary enough but the fact May seems to increasingly pander to said side of her party makes it all the more frightening.
 
Brexit: the Mills file

Transcript of recent emails between a trade expert and a pro-Leave MP. Worth reading in full but the gist:

MP: "I need to convince my circle what they want is possible, a speedy exit with WTO trading terms."

Expert: "That isn't possible or advisable and I'll explain why in detail."

MP: "You haven't answered my question."

Expert: "I have. Don't get moody because it wasn't the answer you wanted."

MP: "Answer my questions!"

Expert: "Are you detached from reality?"

MP: "Everyone, the 'expert' I was talking to is useless but I still think we're fine for the plan we want."
 
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_57ea791ee4b00e5804ef5ae0

A Labour MP has effectively blamed immigrants for UK citizens racially assaulting them. There's been a lot of news I haven't posted here but feel this shows the mess we're in. Labour, the opposition party, is taking the line of Tories and UKIP and even openly saying "Well we want to be elected again."

We are living in a country where if enough people vote for it, racism is courted.
 
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