Currency vs Brexit: GBP Losses

[ayase]

There's also the refusal to acknowledge any other opinion than their own, surrounding themselves with yes men, and thriving on the cult of their own personalities.

Come off it. Corbyn has shown he's more than happy to listen to and debate other people's views. Let's not conflate someone's rabid supporters with the person themselves. And attracting a cult of personality because a lot of people happen to agree with you is rather different to cultivating one because you're full of yourself - If anything I'd say Corbyn is more like Obama than Trump in that regard. A lot of people thought the sun shone out of his arse as well but I don't think either man actually believed it did, which is where I'd say a major difference with Trump lies. The other would be actually having convictions and beliefs.

At the moment I mostly want ayase in charge of the world, which is probably a scary thought.

One vote! That's enough for me to secure a mandate in today's political climate, right? Now, off to the salt mines with you all.

 

[Buzz201]

I find the whole 'Corbyn is an authoritarian monster' thing quite frankly unpalatable. Front benchers voted against the party line, he had to get rid of them, otherwise it would be open season in the Labour Party. The only way he had a choice is if you don't value the Labour Party not being in chaos. That doesn't make him an authoritarian monster, it makes him a leader.

As for Labour's Brexit stance, the majority of the country still supports Brexit, and Labour views itself as the voice of the working people, so of course it supports Brexit. I think the best bet now is push for 'soft Brexit' and then a referendum on the deal negotiated (if negotiated). But I assume that's a little too pragmatic for you guys, and only a full retraction of the Brexit vote will do.

Quite frankly, if you guys spent as much time coming up with pragmatic ways to improve Brexit, as you do ridiculous ways to criticise Corbyn, you might actually succeed in getting a Brexit that doesn't suck.

 

[Just Passing Through]

the majority of the country still supports Brexit

30% of the country wanted Brexit. slightly less wanted to remain, the rest couldn't be arsed to vote. Not a majority of the country, just an electoral majority.

 

[Buzz201]

30% of the country wanted Brexit. slightly less wanted to remain, the rest couldn't be arsed to vote. Not a majority of the country, just an electoral majority.

A non-vote is a symbol of apathy, not opposition. If people are apathetic, can we consider their non-opinion as opposition?

 

[Just Passing Through]

The term 'majority of the country' suggests that the apathetic, the undecided, the unwilling to choose, or those motivated to abstain don't exist. Far from the truth. If those who choose not to vote are pointless, why do parliamentary votes count abstentions as significant when MPs vote in the House?

 

[Buzz201]

The term 'majority of the country' suggests that the apathetic, the undecided, the unwilling to choose, or those motivated to abstain don't exist. Far from the truth. If those who choose not to vote are pointless, why do parliamentary votes count abstentions as significant when MPs vote in the House?

It was a poor choice of wording, but again maybe if we Remainers were less focussed on silly semantics, we might get somewhere.

The Lib Dem voters here seem intent on tearing into Labour over their Brexit support, shouldn't they actually do some good instead of criticising others for not doing it?

 

[Watanabe Ken]

Jeremy Corbyn is an open communist, he is the face of Momentum a group of cultural Marxist made up of hard left unionist, members of the socialist workers party and other elements that have spent their life worshipping Marx, Mao, Stalin, Lenin and Trotsky.

Corbyn has been pictured speaking at events that have proudly flown the hammer and sickle flag of communism, it's estimated that over 120 million people across the world have died thanks to that twisted ideology.

But Corbyn has gone further than just standing in front of communist flags, he has called for the complete rehabilitation of Leon Trotsky in parliament, he used his position as an mp to very publicly demand the Marxist revolution and other communist have their achievement recognised by the Russian state.

 

[kuuderes_shadow]

The Lib Dem voters here seem intent on tearing into Labour over their Brexit support, shouldn't they actually do some good instead of criticising others for not doing it?

What are you actually suggesting?

And what's wrong with attacking a party I don't support and have never voted for in my life over a policy of theirs that I disagree with? And why only pick up on this now? There have been plenty of attacks on other parties over the course of this thread, including the Lib Dems.

 

[thedoctor2016]

Jeremy Corbyn is an open communist, he is the face of Momentum a group of cultural Marxist made up of hard left unionist, members of the socialist workers party and other elements that have spent their life worshipping Marx, Mao, Stalin, Lenin and Trotsky.

Corbyn has been pictured speaking at events that have proudly flown the hammer and sickle flag of communism, it's estimated that over 120 million people across the world have died thanks to that twisted ideology.

But Corbyn has gone further than just standing in front of communist flags, he has called for the complete rehabilitation of Leon Trotsky in parliament, he used his position as an mp to very publicly demand the Marxist revolution and other communist have their achievement recognised by the Russian state.

How many died in the name of Capitalism?
due to the poor healthcare of the US or it intervening in Foreign policy, or the poverty it creates?

 

[Watanabe Ken]

How many died in the name of Capitalism?
due to the poor healthcare of the US or it intervening in Foreign policy, or the poverty it creates?

The -isms are just ideas; it is the -ists that have the potential to damage and to kill.

It is clear that after the 20th century, the -ists promoting communism managed to kill off many millions of people whom they forced to live under their -ism. The Stalinist purges, the famines, Gulags, the failures of the Cambodian Pol Pot regime, the quelling of revolts with tanks all worked to create an image of the average country controlled by the -ists as being more concerned about ideological matters than human life.

Unfettered capitalism allows a certain number of its -ists to exact a human toll also. Whether is is Union Carbide's negligence, tainted food, cars (Pintos) with exploding gas tanks, cars with deadly airbags, there is always a threat that unscrupulous or careless -ists will taint the -ism with their failure to look out for the greater good.

In practice, however, communism seems to have led to the greatest death toll in the last 100 years

 

[HdE]

Corbyn has been pictured speaking at events that have proudly flown the hammer and sickle flag of communism, it's estimated that over 120 million people across the world have died thanks to that twisted ideology.

He was also pictured disrespectfully dancing a jig at a war memorial. Although evidence immediately surfaced that conclusively proved said photograph was actually a high exposure shot taken and spun married to a typical Tory party LIE. He wasn;t dancing at all - merely taking a step forward.

In other words: citation please.

Yes, I'm being cheeky here. But my broader point here is that we really need to STOP focusing on individuals and looking more at policies, or we're all screwed. Five more years of Tory rule, and their proven record of sh*tting on the little people was a moronic thing for anybody to vote for, frankly.

 

[NoSurprises]

In practice, however, communism seems to have led to the greatest death toll in the last 100 years

They have produced some pretty catchy national anthems though!

 

[Buzz201]

What are you actually suggesting?

And what's wrong with attacking a party I don't support and have never voted for in my life over a policy of theirs that I disagree with? And why only pick up on this now? There have been plenty of attacks on other parties over the course of this thread, including the Lib Dems.

You could put your effort in raising support for a soft Brexit or trying to arrange a second referendum so people can say if they like the deal that has been negotiated. You know, things which don't involve trying to undo the democratic process based on stupid technicalities you didn't care about with other votes.

And, there's nothing wrong with it. It's just your attacks are stupid and baseless. I find it hard to believe someone could not understand why Labour supports Brexit and why Jeremy Corbyn fired frontbenchers that didn't take the party line without wilful ignorance. It's been annoying me for the past few weeks, I guess I just snapped with the crappy memes that were posted earlier.

And I voted Lib Dem, so this isn't really about them, it's about Remainers being a colossal embarrassment and doing a great disservice to the cause. (And I would also consider myself a remainer.)

 

[kuuderes_shadow]

Go back a few pages and you'll find me arguing for exactly that, but it's very hard to make any sort of arguments when people either agree with you to begin with, or just slap you down with claims that you're just being a sore loser, you're defying democracy (err, no?) or you're somehow trying to sabotage the UK's glorious (lol?) Brexit. It certainly doesn't help that many of the arguments for a soft Brexit are the same ones as to why Brexit is a bad idea in the first place.

And I'm really not very good or at all comfortable with most campaigning stuff (I did some leaflet delivery before the general election but that's about my limit - I hadn't intended to even go that far). There's no way someone like me could lead or even play a significant role in any such a push. I'm sure that I'm not alone on these forums of being in this position.

I don't believe that anything I personally have said at any point in this thread is either stupid or baseless, incidentally. Indeed, I've for the most part been deliberately avoiding saying anything on here based on my emotions rather than facts or things I could back up with facts since the first few weeks of the thread. For instance I criticised Corbyn for his 3 line whip on abstaining in the amendment put forward by Chuka Umunna, but this is more to do with the fact that this decision was both unnecessary (surely a 1 or 2 line whip would have sufficed?) and damaging for the strength of the parliamentary Labour party (in that it pushes more people out of the front bench, meaning that Corbyn has to reach still further down the list of relatively ineffective/inexperienced MPs to fill the Shadow Cabinet), as well as the impact on the perception of the party among some of those who voted Labour, than it is to do with my (real and strong) dislike of the policy.
And if you say that you weren't referring to me then that means that you weren't referring to at least 2 of the 3 people who have outright stated that they voted Lib Dem in this year's general election.

And just to say I agree that some of the things that have been said in this thread are ridiculous. But from my perspective that applies equally to both sides. And I have criticised things said on both sides over the course of this thread, several times.

 

[ayase]

I'll hold my hand up and say that I've been intentionally trying to make this thread more ridiculous lately, since my normal reaction to people saying ridiculous things is to purposely say even more ridiculous ones. Because really, what's the point of debating regurgitated tabloid hyperbole that Corbyn is some kind of Stalinist monster who'd send everyone to the gulags and kill millions? What's the point in debating the idea a supporter of one political party or leader is responsible for what everybody else who share that one single opinion thinks and does? What's the point of debating the belief it's possible (perhaps even preferable) for the leader of a political party to control the minds and actions of their supporters? Eviv Bulgroz! Now there's a reference no-one will get. These ideas are so self-evidently ridiculous I don't really feel any need to say anything about them other than play up to the stereotype that yeah, come the revolution I'm going to be the one pushing Yvette Cooper and Chuka Umunna off Big Ben at bayonet point while I sing the Internationale and Jeremy drinks the blood of the Queen, before we send you all to gulags in the Highlands and twitter bully you to death.

I don't have to defend anything or anyone except myself and my own beliefs, and this tribalism by which I'm expected to defend or condemn every single thing Corbyn or another one of his supporters happens to say or do is tiring and stupid. I don't agree with everything he says or does, no. But then I don't agree with everything anyone else says or does, because we're all friggin' individuals with our own beliefs and ideas and nobody else is me. The point is I agree with more of what he says and believes than I do any of the other political parties or leaders because he's the only bloody political leader of the last 40 years in this country who actually believes in economic fairness and not some form of reheated Thatcherite free market neo-liberalism which has been making the rich richer and the poor (and middle class, by the way) poorer. Maybe that one simple difference is why he's popular, despite any of his other failings and all the crap people fling at him daily.

Rather than inspiring any kind of discussion or debate, this thread seems to just have devolved into the "have a moan about what you read in the media" thread, which I don't know about anyone else but I don't find particularly stimulating. Some people are very upset about Brexit. Fair enough. Some people hate Jeremy Corbyn. Fair enough. But I don't really know what anyone's trying to achieve here any more.

 

[Blaize]

I'll hold my hand up and say that I've been intentionally trying to make this thread more ridiculous lately, since my normal reaction to people saying ridiculous things is to purposely say even more ridiculous ones. Because really, what's the point of debating regurgitated tabloid hyperbole that Corbyn is some kind of Stalinist monster who'd send everyone to the gulags and kill millions? What's the point in debating the idea a supporter of one political party or leader is responsible for what everybody else who share that one single opinion thinks and does? What's the point of debating the belief it's possible (perhaps even preferable) for the leader of a political party to control the minds and actions of their supporters? Eviv Bulgroz! Now there's a reference no-one will get. These ideas are so self-evidently ridiculous I don't really feel any need to say anything about them other than play up to the stereotype that yeah, come the revolution I'm going to be the one pushing Yvette Cooper and Chuka Umunna off Big Ben at bayonet point while I sing the Internationale and Jeremy drinks the blood of the Queen, before we send you all to gulags in the Highlands and twitter bully you to death.

I don't have to defend anything or anyone except myself and my own beliefs, and this tribalism by which I'm expected to defend or condemn every single thing Corbyn or another one of his supporters happens to say or do is tiring and stupid. I don't agree with everything he says or does, no. But then I don't agree with everything anyone else says or does, because we're all friggin' individuals with our own beliefs and ideas and nobody else is me. The point is I agree with more of what he says and believes than I do any of the other political parties or leaders because he's the only bloody political leader of the last 40 years in this country who actually believes in economic fairness and not some form of reheated Thatcherite free market neo-liberalism which has been making the rich richer and the poor (and middle class, by the way) poorer. Maybe that one simple difference is why he's popular, despite any of his other failings and all the crap people fling at him daily.

Rather than inspiring any kind of discussion or debate, this thread seems to just have devolved into the "have a moan about what you read in the media" thread, which I don't know about anyone else but I don't find particularly stimulating. Some people are very upset about Brexit. Fair enough. Some people hate Jeremy Corbyn. Fair enough. But I don't really know what anyone's trying to achieve here any more.

Couldn't agree with this more. It's why I stopped posting in the thread as it seemed the attitude was either be beaten in to submission by hyperbole or to find yourself doing the same thing to the other if your not careful. For the most part it seems people here aren't likely to be able to change others' minds on pretty much all debated issues be it Corbyn, Labour, May, Conservatives or Lib Dems etc. No one seems to want to come here to have their thoughts challenged but only to force feed them on others.

 

[Watanabe Ken]

I don't believe I said Corbyn was some kind of Stalinists monster, I was actually implying that he was a delusional egotistical maniac, who has spent his life praising the likes of Marx, Mao, Stalin, Lenin and Trotsky.

Also surrounding himself with yes men like John McDonnell (who is a open Marxist) and allowing the harassment of none corbynite mps shows that he isn't open to views that go against his crazy socialist doctrine.

 

[kuuderes_shadow]

I'd like to propose that this thread be locked.

It's been a very long time since it last served its actual purpose. Even the already tangential discussion of Brexit has become a minor subject compared to tangents of the tangent. Or people trolling.

I was originally thinking of proposing that the thread be left open but only for relevant posts, but soon realised that this would just mean people would make relevant posts based on false or dubious claims and others wouldn't be able to challenge these as the act of doing so would itself revert the thread back to its current state.

Perhaps the thread could be reopened in the event of a brexit-related event having a further significant impact on the exchange rates in either direction. But unless that happens, which I don't personally see as particularly likely over the next few months at least, there's little chance of any relevant discussion happening here.

If people want a thread to discuss Corbyn then they can have a separate thread for that.