Currency vs Brexit: GBP Losses

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Brexiters, June 2016

"We want out of Europe, so we can get the independence of our judiciary and parliamentary sovereignty back!"

Brexiters. November 2016

"Not that kind of independent judiciary and parliamentary sovereignty!"
 
Saw this on reddit, might be the first time I've laughed about this whole thing.

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HellCat said:
actual British democracy
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What makes a majority vote among 650 MPs more "actual" democracy than a majority vote by 33.5 million citizens? MPs aren't exactly a diverse bunch. This strikes me more as agreeing with rule by a small elite than with democracy - Which is fine by me actually, we perhaps just disagree on who should be in that elite with my preferred category for selection being "no-one who is currently in it".
 
There is a very real possibility parliament could vote to enact Brexit, especially with the emboldened Tory right wing and Corbyn absolutely failing to serve in his role of opposition. However a parliamentary vote would require far more scrutiny than allowing May to do as she pleases. She's quickly proven to be a tyrant on a Murdoch leash and I'd rather such an important decision not be left down to that camp.

I donated to the People's Challenge for that reason. Again, parliament could still vote to go ahead. But despite the screaming of the worst in government and media this isn't about subverting democracy and putting it in the hands of some elite. That's what May has been doing. This is about our actual system.

It amazes me that Leave are so up in arms about it. They insist they voted for sovereign parliament and British law but attack it when they get it. Which basically confirms a lot of them are just mob racists.
 
HellCat said:
But despite the screaming of the worst in government and media this isn't about subverting democracy and putting it in the hands of some elite. That's what May has been doing. This is about our actual system.
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You mean subverting democracy and putting it in the hands of some elite isn't and hasn't always been our actual system?

Democracy, as it exists currently, is for show and always has been. It's easier to control people when you make them believe they're the ones in control. I have to laugh at the hubbub in the USA about potential Russian influence on their election - As though a "democracy" of what is now essentially an American aristocracy who marry amongst themselves to keep control of the money and power, bought and paid for by the world's richest multinational corporations for their own benefit and to the detriment of ordinary citizens is somehow less corrupt.

Will we actually get Brexit? The elites certainly don't want it, but leaders all over the developed world are taking their people far too much for granted, and given the alarmingly rapid rise of nationalist movements across Europe it's now a serious question of how far they can be pushed. Would it be worth stopping Brexit if that in turn causes say, a British Nazi Party to arise in response? It's not dissimilar to the problem Merkel has with the refugee situation - is it worth risking pushing your people even further into extremism by going against their wishes, even if some of those wishes are perhaps a little bit racist or unpalatable? Is it worth it if denying them leads to worse violence or them gaining more power in the long run? This is what Farage said but didn't say this morning and I think it's entirely correct - The government is going to radicalise leave voters if they disappoint them.

What a lot of those leave supporters are mad about is that they clearly had in mind a hard Brexit, a complete severing of all current EU ties rather than a renegotiation that means we stay in the EU in all but name. The issue here is really down to the fact the referendum question was so damn vague, mainly because the remain camp just presumed they'd win. And also why Cameron just buggered off immediately rather than dealing with it.
 
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Our system is our system. I'm not saying it works perfectly or I have absolute faith in it but it's what the Leave vote claimed to fight for. They want average joes to think this court ruling was about completely voiding the vote. Nice as that would be, it's instead being more adult than Vote Leave and saying "This thing we don't care for must be passed by the laws of the land". Since June the top Leave campaigners have been arrogant, calling for purges and such. The court case is playing by the rules.

All I know is we shouldn't have to fight to get this much. The state of the country on this is pretty ******* disgusting.
 
HellCat said:
it's what the Leave vote claimed to fight for
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Again, leave voters are not a Borg collective. They are individuals with many different reasons for voting the way they did, and there are many different things they wanted from Brexit. Just like remain voters. Since June the self-righteous "It doesn't matter what a majority voted for, we know what's best for you plebs" tone of some remain supporters has been pretty insufferable too.
 
Remain have had little to no voice in discussions, with even government ignoring us. I think we have the right to be annoyed. I tried talking to Vote Leave folks and all I got was "You lost, get over it!" and now we're at the point where MPs and papers are calling for us to be 'purged'.

Forgive people for disagreeing with a decision and then being told they have no say in where their country goes from here.
 
ayase said:
Just like remain voters. Since June the self-righteous "It doesn't matter what a majority voted for, we know what's best for you plebs" tone of some remain supporters has been pretty insufferable too.
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The problem here is that 53% shouldn't be considered a majority on any planet. (Incidentally, recent polling on the matter indicates that the greater majority - an ACTUAL majority - of folks would vote to remain if a second vote were called.)

Bottom line isss, people need to stop reacting to all this stuff with emotion and start using their friggin' heads. LOOK a the state we're currently in, and at how much potential there is for things to get worse. Let me put this in terms we'll all relate to: I can see that before long, this board won't be so full of folks excitedly talking about anime. Because affording even the basics for living is going to be a struggle. Or even MORE of a struggle, if you will.

Let's not forget. One of the top UK intenet searches on the day of the referendum vote was 'what is the EU?' And that paints a dismal picture of the public's ability to capably form an opinion on the matter before voting on it. It's been said by several parties and political commentators that a decision on the UK's EU membership should NEVER have been turned over to the public.

And they're right. For the same reason that, as you state, the leave and remain camps both have so many individual ideas and opinions whizzing around in them. And that's because, when taken collectively, the public simply cannot get its **** straight on anything.
 
HdE said:
The problem here is that 53% shouldn't be considered a majority on any planet.
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What do we consider a majority then? No general election has been won in the UK with one party getting more than 50% of the vote since 1931. We don't see people challenging the results of those every time based on the fact the government doesn't have a "real" majority.

HdE said:
LOOK a the state we're currently in, and at how much potential there is for things to get worse.
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Oh believe me, I am. That's why I no longer want to go back. I only wish neoliberalism and neoconservatism had physical form so I could watch them go down in flames like burning Zeppelins.
 
I'm not trying to say I'm some genius because I know I'm not. There are a ton of people in this world smarter than me and I'll happily default to them where needed. However, I do know what I agree and disagree with and this whole Brexit mess is something I certainly disagree with.

The government's defence for the initial legal case said only the Prime Minister is wise enough to know how the UK works in the world and what is best for it. The problem is that claim straight out shoots down the 'will of the people' nonsense. You can't say that and then say millions of average citizens are likewise best informed because they voted Leave. As has been said there's not even a consistent case for why they voted Leave. I heard one account of a guy who voted Leave because he thought the EU was to blame for boys toys being blue and girls toys being pink. My mum voted Leave because she was promised her wages would improve and while I can believe that swung her, she sadly has depicted increasingly racist sentiment since June.

And yes, there is division of Remain. I know fellow Remain supporters who criticised me for being hardline and not seeking compromise, which ended once May and the tabloids started with the traitor accusations. Even then there are people who say "I voted Remain and won't oppose what was the majority on the day".
 
We briefly talked about the case in a lecture today as a random topic but someone gave me a dirty look when I said I voted remain and fully believe in the case as it is legally correct.
 
The worse part of this whole thing has been how practically half the country and their opinions have been ignored. 48% of those who voted have every right for their opinions to be considered.

Also the Vote was whether we should leave the EU or not. What it wasn't was how we should leave, that is something for Parliament to decide and that should have been obvious from the outset. Thankfully the court case ruling has allowed that to happen.

Something I've seen alot of people be confused by is how our government actually works. Now I'm no expert but this fact seems to bypass people. Right now the Conservatives are the controlling party, this means they gained enough MPs in the election to have a majority in the house of parliament. This doesn't mean they run the country outright, what it means is by having a majority they essentially have control over parliament, that is assuming all conservative MPs follow suit when it comes to voting in parliament. Hence why we have these terribly named Chief Whips etc.

When we voted Leave that didn't mean the Conservatives can do whatever they want with out the say of the entirety of Parliament. Every MP has his/her right to an opinion and a Vote on how we Leave the EU. That's how our Government system works. Conservatives have an advantage by having a majority in those debates and votes. That's what 'Winning' the election provided them.

When we vote in a General Election we are voting for the MP we want to represent our constituency in parliament. That's all. It's fundamentally different to the US for example.
 
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thedoctor2016 said:
Yeah unless the appeal succeeds
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I edited my comment as you responded but as I went on to say the appeal should be pointless as that simply isn't how our Government works. The Conservative have the most say but not the only say. It's amazing how the Leave campaign is trying to just completely change our system for their own gains. As you said what the legality should be obvious to everyone.
 
Which then ignores the other half of the country and their wants. I think leaving is an absolutely terrible decision which affects me personally in nothing but bad ways, but pulling out isolated anecdotes about stupid people isn't going to change the fact that a statistically significant number of people bothered leaving their houses and marking the Leave box on the day of the vote. There will have been misinformed voters on both sides and the exact same thing would have happened had Remain won.

It was stupid to hold the referendum at all, but now it's been done. Ultimately all that this has done is drag out the process longer and fanned the flames between the two 'camps' further (personally, I voted as an individual without reading any of the literature so I don't especially subscribe to the idea either side is particularly unified in its views).

The only practical solution I can see is for the EU itself to go through major reforms which make the organisation materially different, which would justify holding a second referendum to see whether the situation had changed. The problem with that is that I'm not sure that it's in the EU's interests to bother, and I think they'll want us out by that time.

R
 
I've accepted the Vote results, I believe almost all Remainer's have by now. What I and many won't accept is how the Government is going about Leaving, which is illegal and completely undemocratic.
 
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