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What a dissimilar pair of titles I have recently been watching! Yesterday I began Panty and Stocking, as is the fashion of those who consider themselves different in taste to certain reviewers of a certain website. Today I finally finished the main arc of Clannad After Story, as is the fashion of perennial singletons such as myself.

The only similarity of the two anime is perhaps the fact they are both disliked by certain reviewers from a certain website.

I shall make an effort to preview Milky Holmes as well. We never studied Doyle in school, you see.
 
VivisQueen said:
For marginally decent women characters in shounen, you need:

Gundam SEED
MS Gundam
Neon Genesis Evangelion
Robotech: The Macross Saga
Er...

I think the women in Code Geass and GUndam 00 do alright. Yes in 00 they are flawed to the max, but so are the guys too. Everyone in that show is damaged goods now that I think of it XD. Geass, yeah a lot of them idolise Zero but for the most part they're ok. OH and Appleseed, if you count that. Deunan rules. Trigun's women are pretty good too, for the most part they can get themselves out of trouble ok.
 
First off, strong women in shounen? Psyren, Fairy Tail, though admittedly, Psyren is still manga only. Damn, i wish it got an anime, and one piece all come across as ones, there is more though.


I just finished off Giant Killing. First anime series i've actually marathoned the last few episodes of in a long while. Just gonna start a wee write-up of my thoughts in the "rate outta 10" topic, but it was worth the watch.
 
The only useful shounen female is, of course, Sakura from Naruto: she can smash rocks when in PMS mode. She's not to be taken lightly, as a consequence.

(It always tickled me in Naruto how, after knocking her out in response to her declaration of love/willingness to procreate, Sasuke placed Sakura on a bench... and then left. Clearly rape isn't a common problem for ninjas!)

Doesn't Gundam SEED have that crying, selfish bitch everyone wanted dead/celebrated over dying in it? Flair, or something...

I'm not sure about characterization/mindbangbanginanus (/censor) heavy NGE being a shounen work when I don't even recall a manga coming before the anime, but regardless: it does have incredibly strong/desirable 2D ladies. Asuka practically rapes 'poor' Shinji with her realistic bitchiness and Misato had that whole older sister/mature woman thing going. (And that 'poor' bastard Shinji got to live with her, as well as Asuka... AND kiss Misato. ****!)

More seriously: Urumi from GTO is probably the best shounen lady. She puts men in their place with her intellect and has Onizuka act as her slave. (She also demands his semen, at the start of the sequel-prequel, FYI.)

There's also Minami from Touch. She's an old school, Japanese dream girl, and far too faithful to an idiot, but she had the brains and spunk required to argue her corner when needed. Her personality, combined with how devoted she was to her love, made her an impossible character not to love; a little too perfect or not.

Adachi (Touch's author) has a talent for creating lovable shounen females WITH personalities that make you believe in them. Hikari from H2 is cut from the same cloth as Minami; Hikari having more of an older sister vibe and being slightly more boyish but pretty much the same. His female creations can more than fight their own corners, verbally, when required.

Sorry if my Bakuman message was confusing: I was referring to the first volume of the manga when tying about sexism. The sexist conversation of the leads about Miho hasn't been seen animated by me, yet.

It's Miho going along with what was said about her, rather than what was said itself, that irritates me. It's obvious she's going to keep waiting; happy to marry a guy she's yet to hold a conversation with, and - since the author wrote the dialogue and created her character - it's no doubt true that she thinks women are meant to marry/stay at home rather than work.

The difference between Iori and Miho is that Iori never promised herself as a reward. As you (Roy) know, I have gone on record and said that Iori remained as no more than a distant dream girl because of her perspective never getting shown. However, romance being the focus of I''s gave her character far more time than Miho is ever likely to get in the broship, shounen manga focused Bakuman.

(I do see the similarity, though. ;) <-- CG **** smiley)

I think Bakuman's representation of females has drawn so much heat because of Ohba's previous work. Death Note practically had no females, and the ones that were included got used and discarded by Light; both lusting after his penis and, at one point, the short-haired woman being 'seen to' by him off camera and falling fully in lust with him/his penis.

The usage of females in the two series highlights pretty clearly that either the author is a guy (going on how he seemed like an idiot in v13, very likely) or a woman hating woman.
 
No, it's not just being 'kicks ****' that makes a good female character. That's shallow. It's about making them complex (or, at least, relatively as complex as the male characters in the show), giving them as much screen time as the guys, and letting them develop in an independent manner i.e. they make their own little story in the main narrative and don't just hang around being pretty.

While Flay (SEED) was indeed a pink-haired bitch, she was nuanced in ways a lot of the male characters - even the key antagonists - were not. But I'm generally also counting the Captain and her second-in-command.

Unfortunately, Code Geass' CC is incredibly shallow personality underneath all those mystic gazes and near-kisses, and Kallen - one of my potentially favourite characters - gets turned into nothing more than ecchi fodder. They barely tackle why she gives a damn about the resistance at all.

And now I am late for a course.
 
Stuart-says-yes said:
Decent characters in shonen would be

Naru from love hina, bitch knows how to put men in there place, namely keitaro .

Also Kanna Endō and Yukiji in 20th century boys.

Sumeragi Lee Noriega from gundam 00 as well.

Sumeragi is awesome. For some reason I feel she and Tony Stark would hit it off really well after seeing Second Season XP
 
With Miho in Bakuman, the way I took her agreement was that we were supposed to think she was probably also completely infatuated with the lead but being just as much of a wimp - like her mother. I agree that if this wasn't the logic behind it and she just randomly agreed to marry a guy she barely knew, it makes no sense and is rather squicky. It's definitely a manly fantasy series rather than anything deep though.

To make like I'm posting on topic so I don't have to go to the trouble of separating this sexism discussion off into its own thread, lately I watched the first disc of Jigoku Shoujo: Mitsuganae. I found it interesting that for the first time the main characters actually seem somewhat villainous as I really like them all. The punishment scenes are getting even more camp and silly but I'm liking this season a lot so far. Kikuri is also a lot less annoying now.

I also finally finished Slayers Evolution-R. :(

R
 
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Orgun said:
Katsuhiro Otomo Presents: Memories

One of those films that reminds me why I like anime so much!!

Interesting. I didn't really like Memories aside from Magnetic Rose. I felt Stink Bomb (while gorgeously animated) was like one of those jokes with a ridiculously long buildup and a lacklustre payoff. And I really didn't care for Cannon fodder's art style. I understand it was supposed to be drak and gritty, and that aspect I liked, but the actual character designs were rather hideous. Maybe I just hate that grey face-pink nosed look.
 
VivisQueen said:
No, it's not just being 'kicks ****' that makes a good female character. That's shallow.

But you have to admit, there's nothing hotter than a 2D drawing with boobs (or not, depending on if you're Maes) beating up a clueless 2D representation of men. Manga artists will seemingly never tire of having 2D females beat up 2D guys, for comedy purposes.

The day when the opposite is the norm will be a happy day...

As for Flay, I remember little about her aside from when she's blown up in space (spoilers.) However, with Asuka also getting a mention, it seems whenever a female character acts like a selfish bitch the character in question is accepted as a person.

Example: http://www.therossman.com/rrr/anime/beck.html

In R2, Kallen got reduced to being a member of Lelouch's harem and bunny-costume whore. In S1 her back-story and family issues got time. After that, it was all boobs and inconsistent, abandon leader during key stages of revolution rubbish. But, tbh, she had big boobies for a reason, long before the bunny-costume business...

Late for a course; on a Sunday? Who's riding you? I'm not up on racing.

There's not a lot else to say about Bakuman, at this early stage. Both characters are clearly crushing on each other but it still seems rather bizarre for marriage to enter the equation when their personalities may very well conflict. Puppy love to marriage is kind of a big step!

The feminine article typist was right about one thing: Miho's mother getting shown as a 40+ MILF was a way of telling the readers, 'Even if the lead has to wait until his best years are behind him before getting laid, she'll be one heck of a hot momma, in years to come. Don't worry!!!'

----

On the actual non-sexism topic, I haven't watched sod all for the past few days. My Touch>KOR>Maison Ikkoku marathoning has finally caught up with me; leaving me back at the point where watching Japanese cartoons is too much like hard work... which is why I'm posting on AUKN about the cartoons, instead of watching them.

I did start Rescue Wings (matches my maturity level) and Itazura-whatever Kiss a few days back, though. Rescue Wings is a good watch if you like the idea of anime without school girls and with a unique, helicopter rescuing/long distance relationship blend. Kiss is no more than shoujo fluff where some guy acts like a complete and utter penis to a girl madly in love with him... but, like some kind of mistreated wife, eager for more 'love', she keeps on running back. They'll eventually mate, I won't care a great deal, etc etc.

As interesting as Rescue Wings is, it doesn't provide A+ entertainment, and with Kiss not fully satisfying my inner woman I cba to finish either, atm. So, I'll probably go down a shounen romance manga path instead where a fella gets reincarnated as a penguin and gets to bathe with the girl he loves... while she remains loyal to a guy she never even knew, after his death, in typical male dream girl fashion. (Tuxedo Gin, FYI.)
 
Sadly I think most actual marriages are just a matter of picking someone who looks sort of ok and then sticking it out until you can't handle it any more.

Amused though Aion that you are starting Itazura Na Kiss; when I was reading it it suddenly hit me that Naoki was like a parody version of how you'd be if you'd been forced into the manga in his role against your will. Again, I'm reading the manga version and will probably drop it before its truncated end (I can't stand shoujo much these days). The horrible little brother is the best character.

R
 
Strangely, I don't feel the need to bother with shoujo; even though I've read very little.

PSME gives me shoujo + sci-fi as good as I'm ever going to get it. Mars has the high school romance/love healing psychological scars side down. Life is perfect if I want to see the girly version of Gantz; everything that can go horribly wrong for a school girl doing so. Aishi Baby shows how a cute little girl can make a playboy into a niceboy.

...Really, what else is there to see? I'm even reading Suppli (kinda) to better understand working women. And I'm sure NANA will provide more than enough girlship to last me a lifetime.

The ONLY thing that makes me hopeful about Kiss is the knowledge that the story doesn't just end following all the melodrama/rape attempts frequently seen in shoujo. I *think* the author died/ran away before finishing the story but still took the main relationship well beyond the first kiss stage?...

...OH! There is a shoujo manga I want to read - the ten volume one about twincest; the one currently incomplete on the net. Semi-believable incest + smut (in he manga) = Aion likes this.

http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=577

Put it in on your 'buy for Aion; send for free out of devotion' list next time you go to Japan. I'm looking forward to building a collection of books I cannot read.
 
I haven't watched a lot of anime over the last week or so, but I have continued my first watch through of G Gundam with Episodes 26-37. Man... it's still... not very good, but I do JUST care enough about some of the characters to watch it through to the end over the next few days. I can't say I'll watch it again in the future...
 
Panty & Stocking 2. I liked this one a lot more. I'm also beginning to think that something resembling a story will turn up towards the end - after all these wacky crazy zany adventures, I really think they are going to be pulled together.
 
Iron Manime 2

Better than the first ep, more stuff going on and the music was more fitting and orchestral especially when he beats the zodiac villain.

Still not enough to elevate it above a "good" but an improvement over last weeks. And the introduction of Sakurai may prove an interesting development.
 
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