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While any responsible man is certainly affected by causing a pregnancy too, it's not possible for a pregnancy to directly cause physical injury or (in some cases) even end their life in quite the same way, and the responsibility can be limited to being financial or occasionally supportive if things don't work out far more easily. On the flip side, if the woman feels like being unreasonable it's far easier to cut the man out of seeing their child at all, so I'm not saying men have it easier - only that a serious woman might have a more driving investment in carefully controlling their fertility than an equivalently serious man would.

'Dating' as it's presented by the media and a staggering number of normal people is unpleasant, with all of its rituals, half-truths and general shenanigans, but this may be a definition thing; assessing compatibility on a basic level by conversing is important to those of us whose physical attraction isn't decoupled from a person's personality in the same way. Having a conversation over a stuffy dinner where both parties are trying to get into one another's pants while mutually pretending not to and wasting time is obviously annoying, but as I don't feel physical attraction before knowing someone, it always seemed like common sense to me that you would start talking to someone - in a genuine, hopefully-interesting way - before even thinking about taking the next step. It's always enlightening to hear how different individual feelings are on this, since before ayase mentioned the different way his attraction works in the past I had never considered it as a possibility.

R
 
Sorry for the late contribution, just back from work!

Ironically, I'm in the process of studying attraction for my dissertation (in a few months time!).

It is true that people go for a pretty face. There are studies that show that men will go the extra mile just for a glimpse of a beautiful woman (and not men), whereas women will actually be equally motivated for both men and women. I find that quite interesting.

Rui said:
assessing compatibility on a basic level by conversing is important to those of us whose physical attraction isn't decoupled from a person's personality in the same way
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I agree, compatibility is important for a number of reasons. Everyone does it subconciously whether they deny it or not. If women are looking for a quick fix, they will go for the best looking guy. If they don't, they look for qualities that they would like long term to bring stability into a 'future' family.

ayase said:
Perhaps in the days a man was able to get a woman pregnant and take no responsibility to the mother or child you'd have a point, but those days are long gone.
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When a woman becomes pregnant - as Rui has rightly pointed out - that at worst her very life may be in danger. It is not equal sided. I know the father can help out but ultimately, this is probably one of the reasons why women are not as straight forward when it comes to sex. If there was something that prevented pregnancy and STDs at a100% level then I'd dare say more women in general may be 'up for it'. Then again, women are wired differently biologically speaking. As they say: 'Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus.'

In my opinion, the best part is getting to know someone even if it's all for superficial reasons. :)
 
I think STD's are kind of like nature telling us that sexing and sharing bodies very promiscuously isn't best. Regardless of modern contraception, if one keeps sharing many sexual partners casually, it's bound to catch up to that person at some point.

So then, whats the conclusion of attraction in your dissertation, Naeptune? Do you think attraction just comes down to our innate biological and instinctual needs (childbearing in woman and secuity in men). Or is there something more?

Personally I definitely think there's a real spiritual element to loving someone. Or at least, that's how I've felt. Not that our animal instincts don't play some role as well (unless you've transcended those, of course ).
 
neptune2venus said:
I agree, compatibility is important for a number of reasons. Everyone does it subconciously whether they deny it or not. If women are looking for a quick fix, they will go for the best looking guy. If they don't, they look for qualities that they would like long term to bring stability into a 'future' family.
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Do you really think that all women would go for the best looking guy? Bit presumptuous of their own sex appeal for them to think they would get him, isn't it?

neptune2venus said:
Then again, women are wired differently biologically speaking. As they say: 'Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus.'
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Ultimately, that's it for me - I've found I simply don't care much for the women from Venus on anything other than a superficial level. And the women from Mars whose company I enjoy in a social context on the level of my (very few) male friends who are straight, physically attractive to and interested in me are... well, so far, non-existent. And I'm not interested in men either. I think I'm probably going to have to build a robot.
 
Why are you so competely pessimistic about finding that type of women, though? It's not usually easy for anyone to find the partner they want to spend the rest of their lives with, but your only a young man still and shouldn't resign yourself to basically giving up nearly all hope.
 
I haven't given up on finding those "perfect" people, but I am am entirely sick of waiting for them to turn up. I don't consider patience or abstinence virtues, and especially now that I have some measure of confidence would like to just enjoy myself with imperfect people pending their possible arrival, but even this seems impossible if I'm to remain true to myself. I suppose in overall terms I'm trying to adjust to a life where I finally feel able to be myself (something I worked to achieve) but as a result find I'm disliked, rather than my previous life where I was a likeable fraud.
 
I am prepared to talk to people, when did I say I wasn't? It's once I start talking to people that I find these things out about them, not before! What I said was that the ones I find attractive have either proved uninterested or uninteresting, and that I personally am not prepared to put up with their ********. And yes, that's a choice I've made and I don't expect any sypathy for it. I do wonder why I don't meet anyone who at least shares my views on casual encouters, because those rare "perfect" people are at present so rare as to be theoretical (and I'm not even all *that* picky about appearances). That was all.

To be honest, I was a lot more interested in this discussion when I was hearing other people's opinions than answering what's starting to feel like a Q&A session.
 
Interesting. There are a few things I've learned over the years that may apply here, which basically boils down to:
  • If you are happy then what others think ultimately doesn't matter a jot;
    It doesn't matter how niche you think your views are there are always plenty of others that will agree.
I would be willing to bet that many more people exist in this country that share ayase's views on sex than share our love of Anime. Actually, much like Anime fandom, a lot of them won't identify as such outside groups of like-minded people as it's not a mainstream view, and I'm sure we all know what some people can be like towards people who think a bit different to them.
 
megalomaniac said:
I would be willing to bet that many more people exist in this country that share ayase's views on sex than share our love of Anime.
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I'm not sure about there being more but I'm sure they do exist. Rui has given an example and I have heard people express similar opinions in the past, oddly enough I've most often heard similar sentiments from people with personality "disorders" (which I put in inverted commas because they seem perfectly logical to me). However they are still rare and more importantly from my point of view, invariably male.

As far as happiness goes, I'm happy that I've finally learned to be comfortable and confident being myself. What I'm less happy with is the reaction I get. "Be yourself" they say... Yeah, what they neglect to add is "but only if your self is appealing to others does that get you anywhere".
 
That's true, I've never met a woman with the same viewpoint. If I do I'll be sure to send her this way :D

A large part of the problem is probably that with the (awesome) demographic on this forum, we tend to be more contemplative and perhaps more old-fashioned in our romantic tastes, while the type of mindset ayase is interested in is something I'd expect to come along with a significantly more confident, self-assured person who'd be less likely to skulk around here discussing Black Lagoon box art text alignment decisions with us. So while it's unlikely to be impossible to find women with the right mindset, it's presumably very hard to find one with both that mindset and a similar set of interests, which must be a real pain. I wonder whether the same discussion posted on a forum with a completely different demographic would yield a very different response to ayase's stance (even if just from other males).

R
 
Ayase, have you ever tried to frequent heavy metal fans? There's plenty of metalgirls that share a similar view.
Sure, if you don't like the music then it would be a major problem.



Teo
 
Like everything it's knowing where to look for like minded people, sticking 'UK' and 'Anime' into Google is quite easy. Knowing where to look for people that agree with ayase, not so much.

ayase, if I've read your posts correctly you feel love and sex are two separate things, and that one can be enjoyed without the other? i.e. you find physical and emotional attraction to be quite distinct, though not necessarily mutually exclusive. Whereas the mainstream view is that they go hand in hand. If that's the case then the amount of people that share your views absolutely dwarf the Anime community.

Myself, well I'm married and have been with the same woman for the last 8 years, so make of that what you will. Out of interest how old are you folks? I suspect the demographic here's a bit younger than that other Anime forum I'm a member of.
 
Rui said:
A large part of the problem is probably that with the (awesome) demographic on this forum, we tend to be more contemplative and perhaps more old-fashioned in our romantic tastes, while the type of mindset ayase is interested in is something I'd expect to come along with a significantly more confident, self-assured person who'd be less likely to skulk around here discussing Black Lagoon box art text alignment decisions with us. So while it's unlikely to be impossible to find women with the right mindset, it's presumably very hard to find one with both that mindset and a similar set of interests, which must be a real pain.
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This is an accurate assessment. I've had enough experience with more unsure of themselves, emotional women to know that I'll end up just wanting to strangle them. I'm far more attracted to confident and self-assured people, but where women are concerned that seems to often go hand in hand with "demanding and uptight". No offence intended to your sex as I know every individual is different, but women who are confident and self assured and also laid-back and non-judgemental seem like absolute gold dust.

teonzo said:
Ayase, have you ever tried to frequent heavy metal fans? There's plenty of metalgirls that share a similar view.
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ayase said:
I probably need to retreat back into a subculture again...
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So I feel a bit like I've "been there, done that" but you're probably right that's where the most interesting and least conformist people are.

ayase, if I've read your posts correctly you feel love and sex are two separate things, and that one can be enjoyed without the other? i.e. you find physical and emotional attraction to be quite distinct, though not necessarily mutually exclusive. Whereas the mainstream view is that they go hand in hand. If that's the case then the amount of people that share your views absolutely dwarf the Anime community.
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Not quite as simple as that. It's finding people with the same views but also the same attitude in that they don't still expect various tedious social hoops to be jumped through. I'm 27, but in terms of relating that to relationship experience you can write off the last five years.
 
Every possible kind of relationship between consenting adults is fine by me. I think it's a personal choice thing, fine if people want to do it and think they can make it work, equally so if they don't want to or don't think they can. I do think people could stand to be a bit more honest about their likelihood of remaining in a monogamous partnership long-term though - Never promise anyone forever, as an old song goes. It's more likely than not that someone's going to end up being hurt or deceived and I while I have no doubt I could cope with and am not fearful of those things, I've no desire to be subjected to nor subject others to them due to having made frivolous promises. Distrustful, some might say, but I prefer to think of it as realistic. That attitude doesn't seem to win me many admirers either.
 
Forgive me if I'm off the mark, but it sounds to me like you're essentially a none practising (at least currently) swinger. So I'd suggest that's your keyword to stick into Google if you wanted to find like-minded people.
 
Nnn...o. I'm not that desperate, thanks. I still think the starting point is a mutually acknowledged physical attraction, and I don't think swinging is something the participants publicly acknowledge otherwise - many pretend to practice monogamy, and that intrinsically dishonest and secretive nature is contrary to the attitude I look for. Besides, they're all ugly middle aged people aren't they?
 
I have no idea, I know what they are and I know they keep to themselves but that's about it. Obviously they keep things within that community (bit like some folks wont talk about Anime outside these circles I guess) for the reasons you've identified. Can't hurt to look it up though can it, as your basic philosophies seem to align at least.
 
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