The General Conversation Area

We're all human and we all deserve to be treated equally, but it's a fallacy to think we're all equally capable of achieving the same things. There are probably rare exceptional people who excel in whatever they choose to do, but our genetics do make most of us more capable in some areas and less in others. People can educate themselves to increase their knowledge or exercise to increase their fitness, but they can't increase their height or expand their level of intelligence. You can only work within the framework you're given.

I think it's important that in seeking not to discriminate against people because of their differences, we don't try to deny that those differences are there. And they're there to be celebrated, IMO. Vive la différence, as the cheese eating surrender monkeys say.
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I'm not denying that genetics do play a role, ie: a tale person has an advantage in high jump, a shorter person might have an advantage at gymnastics. There will always be people whose body types are perfectly or well suited to a discipline, though this in reality is only a very small percentage of what it takes to excel in a discipline, 95% of success comes down to hard work, repetition, tuition, funding ect.

And why is it only black athletes who get singled out in this way? Why has a black athlete not won a medal for rowing or sailing? Are white athlete's just genetically advantaged at that sport?

And the claims just don't make sense. Look at how large a black population Brazil has, yet they don't seem to do very well in the athletics competition. In fact, Brazil had far more African slaves brought over than America did! So if the descendants of these slaves are meant to be genetically superior runners, why is Brazil yet to make any impact on the track? It makes NO sense to link slavery with superior athletics genes in this way.

There are reasons to explain the why black runners are so dominant on the track right now, but I don't think genetics is a particularly big factor in why they are so successful.
 
vashdaman said:
I'm not denying that genetics do play a role, ie: a tale person has an advantage in high jump, a shorter person might have an advantage at gymnastics. There will always be people whose body types are perfectly or well suited to a discipline, though this in reality is only a very small percentage of what it takes to excel in a discipline, 95% of success comes down to hard work, repetition, tuition, funding ect.
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Well no matter how much time and money you threw at me, I readily admit that at 5ft 6" with oddly bent shins I couldn't ever hope to challenge Usain Bolt for the hundred metres. Whatever the percentage, I'd say that genetics are absolutely vital to excel in certain areas. It's true there are many things most people could, with time and effort, come to be very good at. But most couldn't be Usain Bolt or Stephen Hawking. Both have undeniably worked very hard to reach the top of their fields, but neither could have done so unless they already had a genetic advantage over most people in a particular area. They are exceptional individuals.

vashdaman said:
And why is it only black athletes who get singled out in this way? Why has a black athlete not won a medal for rowing or sailing? Are white athlete's just genetically advantaged at that sport?
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Did you miss Sizwe Ndlovu of South Africa receiving his gold medal for the lightweight men's four rowing? That is likely more of a cultural thing though, which I imagine was what you were getting at.

vashdaman said:
And the claims just don't make sense. Look at how large a black population Brazil has, yet they don't seem to do very well in the athletics competition. In fact, Brazil had far more African slaves brought over than America did! So if the descendants of these slaves are meant to be genetically superior runners, why is Brazil yet to make any impact on the track? It makes NO sense to link slavery with superior athletics genes in this way.
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I don't think it makes any sense to link slavery to it, no. That's an unnecessary thing to do which makes it sound as though the act of being enslaved may have played some part, which I'm sure it didn't. But as to why Brazil doesn't produce great runners, perhaps they are there but don't receive that important tuition and funding. Perhaps culturally they're more interested in football. Perhaps Portuguese and indigenous Brazilian people make for poor runners which has diluted their running genes. Who can say? Eugenics is certainly a rather taboo subject nowadays, but just because genetic difference was used to single people out for discrimination in the past doesn't mean it has to be used in that way in the future, or that it is irrelevant or doesn't exist. I think it would be fascinating to know if we do all have genes that make us better at certain things, and that it would be quite a positive thing to find out. Then we can start the selective breeding programmes and really excel at everything...
 
I readily admit that at 5ft 6" with oddly bent shins I couldn't ever hope to challenge Usain Bolt for the hundred metres. Whatever the percentage, I'd say that genetics are absolutely vital to excel in certain areas.
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Of course, as I said they do play an important role to an extent. But you could find me 5 million 6 footers with amazing shins and you still probably won't find anyone to match Bolt. Why? Because they either don't have the dedication, mental capacity, time or funding. Having the physical requirements is only about 3% of the way on the path to actually achieving greatness in a discipline. An important 3% but it's still only 3%.

That is likely more of a cultural thing though, which I imagine was what you were getting at.
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Yes, so competitive sailing or show jumping aren't particularly encouraged sports among African American's or Caribbean's. We never hear about the lack of successful competitive black sailors or horse riders being due to the fact that they are already at a natural disadvantage to white sailors or horse riders. It shouldn't just be one way, as there are plenty of Olympic sports in which white athletes nearly entirely dominate. But when it comes to something like sailing I'd imagine those same people who claim that black athletes are genetically advantaged at sprinting, would just say it's a cultural thing. Is this not hypocritical? I've already seen a few shows emphasizing the point of black runners being at a natural genetic advantage, yet I've seen none claiming that white sailors are at a genetic advantage.

But as to why Brazil doesn't produce great runners, perhaps they are there but don't receive that important tuition and funding. Perhaps culturally they're more interested in football.
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Exactly. Sprinting is basically the national sport in Jamaica. That's what all the attention is given to. That's why an island of only under 3 million can produce such great sprinters. As for African American's, you have to consider that for a long time in that society, sports (or music) was pretty much considered the only thing that they would be able to thrive and excel at. In my opinion, claiming that it's easier for them due to superior genes is doing an injustice to the incredibly hard graft it takes to get to that level.
 
vashdaman said:
In my opinion, claiming that it's easier for them due to superior genes is doing an injustice to the incredibly hard graft it takes to get to that level.
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Ah, now I certainly wouldn't do that, and I think this is perhaps a misinterpretation of people's intentions. I think (and believe that's what other people are getting at as well) that particular genetic traits ultimately make it possible for individuals to achieve remarkable things, but not easier. But I also think it's like a component in a machine - it's either there and can be refined and made to work at optimum efficiency, or it just isn't, in which case you've got no chance.
 
Tachi said:
I only have a couple of posters in my room. An assassins creed brotherhood, "Warning - Gamer at work" poster, and a Linkin Park one i bought in france when i was about 12 :)

I do have a framed picture of a pool table and jack daniels but thats not on the wall because i can't find space.

What have you guys got?
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Mine are not on the wall yet, since I want to frame them but I have a Pokemon Black and White one, one from Vampire Knight, one from Cardcaptor Sakura and my last one is Gauron from FMP signed by Mike MacRae.
 
Ah, now I certainly wouldn't do that, and I think this is perhaps a misinterpretation of people's intentions. I think (and believe that's what other people are getting at as well) that particular genetic traits ultimately make it possible for individuals to achieve remarkable things, but not easier. But I also think it's like a component in a machine - it's either there and can be refined and made to work at optimum efficiency, or it just isn't, in which case you've got no chance.
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Yeah I agree with this. But I don't think the media's portrayal of the issue is very balanced or scientific, to me it just seems like "black people are winning at running, oh well there has to be special extraordinary explanation then". Yet when the reverse is true and white people dominate a sport, we don't hear any of this.
 
And I agree that it would be awful if people were saying "How can people of x-race possibly be good at something!? Surely it can't be skill..." But I don't think for a moment that's what's going on. I think it's a genuine interest to try to find and define what makes certain people exceptional - like dissecting Einstein's brain.

It is perhaps a little strange that it's done more for people of non-white backgrounds, but then we're aware of history, and the idea that a lot of people used to look at white Europeans as superior to other races has to be considered by the media. They'll say "Wow, those Black guys sure kick ass at sprinting" because it's sort of self depreciating and at the same time reinforcing the idea that they now admire/appreciate Black athletes, rather than discriminate against them as was once the case. If they were to start saying "Wow, those White guys kick ass at sailing" it would start to make people a bit uncomfortable. Both statements are probably largely accurate, but that's just the burden of history for you.
 
It is perhaps a little strange that it's done more for people of non-white backgrounds, but then we're aware of history, and the idea that a lot of people used to look at white Europeans as superior to other races has to be considered by the media. They'll say "Wow, those Black guys sure kick ass at sprinting" because it's sort of self depreciating and at the same time reinforcing the idea that they now admire/appreciate Black athletes, rather than discriminate against them as was once the case. If they were to start saying "Wow, those White guys kick ass at sailing" it would start to make people a bit uncomfortable. Both statements are probably largely accurate, but that's just the burden of history for you.
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It's interesting, but I think it's almost like using the reverse strategy but getting a similar result as before. Whereas in the past people would say "oh, Europeans are so genetically superior humans, lets pitty the lesser beings", now people are saying "Black athletes aren't like the rest of us, they have special genes that make them incredible at running, it's probably thanks to slavery or something". The order has reversed, but I think it's still slightly dehumanising in the way it's coming across right now.

Don't get me wrong, obviously people do have different genes, these genes do play an important role, and I can see why people would want to explore and understand this topic in further detail. I just don't think these recent features on BBC and channel 4 are presenting the topic correctly, especially as, as far as I know it is has not in the least been conclusively proven that genes from east Africa are significantly superior at running and whatnot.
 
vashdaman said:
It's interesting, but I think it's almost like using the reverse strategy but getting a similar result as before. Whereas in the past people would say "oh, Europeans are so genetically superior humans, lets pitty the lesser beings", now people are saying "Black athletes aren't like the rest of us, they have special genes that make them incredible at running, it's probably thanks to slavery or something". The order has reversed, but I think it's still slightly dehumanising in the way it's coming across right now.
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While I've heard the other sentiments before I don't think I have ever heard anybody say that, and I think it's very unfortunate if anyone is. But you're right that it is in a way a form of reverse discrimination, probably brought about by inherited guilt: "White people used to look down on other races, so now to make up for it let's go out of our way to say how amazing we think they are." I do think it's well meaning and not disingenuous, but you're stuck with the problem that you are still discriminating. But then it would seem unfair not to mention someone's race at all in their achievements if that race has been discriminated against in the past, someone like Barack Obama for example.

All a bit of a minefield really, but I do enjoy gleefully skipping across those.
 
20thCenturyBoy said:
So my manager in work has been wanting to set me up with a girl that works in one of our other shops. I've seen pictures of her and while she's not my type I'm willing to go on the word from my manager that she's a nice girl and we're quite similar.
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So this happened last night and my God was it painful. The girl was half an hour late, I thought she looked worse than her photos, there was zero chemistry. I tried as best I could to create conversation but she was very quiet, offering up no opinions a lot of the time, there was about a clear yard or 2 of distance between us most of the time. I'm banning my manager from making any suggestions on women from now on.
 
Weirdly that pretty much sums up my experience of women the whole time I lived in Glasgow :p

Though that might be more to do with the fact i'm a posh speaking English IT engineer with an anime fetish...

To be honest it's a pretty positive sign for you guys that you actually turned up, that's trying a lot harder than most people would and it sounds like you at least gave it a go. Practice is never a bad thing I guess?
 
20thCenturyBoy said:
So this happened last night and my God was it painful. The girl was half an hour late, I thought she looked worse than her photos, there was zero chemistry. I tried as best I could to create conversation but she was very quiet, offering up no opinions a lot of the time, there was about a clear yard or 2 of distance between us most of the time. I'm banning my manager from making any suggestions on women from now on.
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You should be honest and tell your manager that you prefer Nami cosplayers:

<a href="http://tinypic.com?ref=33eobax" target="_blank"><img src="http://i45.tinypic.com/33eobax.jpg" border="0" alt="Image and video hosting by TinyPic"></a>



Teo
 
teonzo said:
You should be honest and tell your manager that you prefer Nami cosplayers
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If only I could find one :lol: Also acceptable would be Robin, Boa, Vivi and many other sexy ladies from this series and more.

I guess that picture will need to do for now. Excuse me while I go in the corner and, err, "study" it :oops:
 
Well i'm back from Cardiff, what a good night out :)

Had 2 kebabs, plenty to drink (port and beer mainly with the odd glass of champaign) rather than going out and predrinking with the birthday boys uni friends we decided to stay in our room and talk/watch films and have a few drinks :)

Ended up breaking away from the bday boy as he was thrown out of the spoons, we carried on drinking - 3 girls that had been hovering around us all evening came over and started talking to us, we had a good chat and they told us about a place called the live lounge - we went there and it turns out that the live lounge is the equivalent of lutons "Edge" rock club. Had a great time in there and listened to some great music and then my night was made the moment they started playing the fresh prince of bel air theme tune and then the pokemon theme - it was so funny to see everyone chanting along to the theme tunes :p

Got back to the room at 4am and chilled, watched rhod gilbert and then went to bed.

Woke up at 8am and felt fine enough, the other lads were all dying lol.

Got back to luton at 3pmish and chilled.
 
haha The bday boy had nandos in euston station at 11.45, got to cardiff a couple of hours later and had a second Nandos. Threw his guts up that night and was kicked out of spoons. The next day he was up and back in nandos by 10.

2 kebabs on a night out is acceptable imo, one at 7-8pm and the other at 3-4am :)

Btw i agree with the nami picture in this thread, more if possible :D

oh and petty complaints about me having headphones round my neck but not plugged in or playing music.... apparently i'm being hailed into a meeting with the managers because of it.

Whistleblowing and discrimination policies already at the ready.

You can't treat 1 person different because of something so petty.
 
Well I'm having one of my un-characteristicaly good luck days. First I learned that the jobcentre may not kill me afterall, and actually want to help me money wise. Then I get a job interview, for the first time in ages (almost a year) I have a job interview!

Its not for something great but it's a job, it will help me get back on my feet and erase what happened to my last job.

Now I'm just waiting for the bad luck to kick in...
 
Well i didn't get pulled into a meeting, nobody has had a go at me or anything. Though i've said i need to speak with the manager tomorrow as one of the team leaders is bullying staff and has tried to do the same to me, sadly for her i don't put up with such idiocy and have confronted her about it.

She went home shortly after that and has said that she hasn't bullied anyone, 4 people have written formal complaints and i have evidence of her bullying.

She was getting one person to show her on a piece of paper exactly what she's done all day, that wouldn't normally be a problem if it was for a reason but the bully has admitted she's doing it to get rid of the staff member as she "doesn't like em"

I signed off the womans form and put a big cross across the page, the bully confronted me about it which led to me having a go at her about bullying.

i can see the brown stuff hitting the fan tomorrow.


Stay optimistic Black, its good to hear you have an interview coming up :)
 
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