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::sigh::

Yes, Mutsumi, I bow to your superior nitpicking skill... However, my point was that to claim adult soldiers in a volunteer army are victims of war is pretty much to class them as a group as stupid, which I think was fairly obvious.
 
Sorry, I didn't know you meant it like that.

Agreeing with all of your previous post though. The army is a job, no one is forced to go. They know the risks. It is no worse when a soldier dies than when anyone else dies, perhaps even less bad, because the risk was obvious and they chose to take it, it stops it being tragic, just unfortunate.
 
Very much so. In the modern era, African solutions are the only satisfactory ones to African problems. Western nations going in there and doing things for them because they don't think they can or will do it themselves is just smacks of a continuing colonial paternalistic attitude to me. Sure, if people want to go and help out by actually doing something useful like helping dig a well then all means they should do so, but helping by simply asking your government to help? Most effort free way to ease your conscience ever.
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I very much agree.

Er, we and the Americans have armies composed entirely of adult volunteers IIRC. Of course our soldiers aren't to blame for the decisions that send them to war, but if you sign up to be a soldier, you sign up to follow orders and with the knowledge you might be killed in the line of duty. The idea that our soldiers are somehow victims of the conflicts they take part in doesn't sit well with me at all - No, they are willing participants who knew the risks when they took the job. I think to suggest otherwise is somewhat belittling to the soldiers because it suggests that they don't know the possible implications of their decision to join up. They know. They aren't stupid.
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I know that our army is supposed to be made up of individuals who thrive on taking orders and participating in combat ect, and so in theory are completely responsible for whatever happens to them. However I would guess that the number of 18-19 year old's in our army is probably quite high (as is the number of them that come from working class backgrounds), and I don't think all of them do thrive in war situations as opposed to other careers, but have simply been fooled into participating in a war they simply don't understand.

I've seen a recruitment campaign take place in the college I currently attend. Praying on the insecurity, ignorance and poverty of certain teenagers just doesn't sit well with me at all.
 
But if you're going to say that 18/19 year olds aren't mature enough to make their own decisions about their own lives, at what point do you let them do so? You have to allow adults to make their own decisions and respect them, even if you personally don't think they are right or are being taken advantage of. Otherwise you end up with an even worse nanny state than we already have. I wouldn't want anyone telling me I'm not allowed to make a decision because I'm too insecure or ignorant (or poor? Really? Just think about how that sounds for a second) and I doubt many would.

And how many soldiers ever understand the wars they're fighting entirely? How many of us do for that matter? The reasons for the war are immaterial to them, and the decision to go to war is not theirs. Their job is to fight the war and I'm pretty sure those signing up to be soldiers know that fighting (and potentially dying) in wars is what a soldier does.
 
ayase said:
I wouldn't want anyone telling me I'm not allowed to make a decision because I'm too insecure or ignorant (or poor? Really? Just think about how that sounds for a second) and I doubt many would.
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I thought Belgium was already doing that?
 
ayase said:
But if you're going to say that 18/19 year olds aren't mature enough to make their own decisions about their own lives, at what point do you let them do so? You have to allow adults to make their own decisions and respect them, even if you personally don't think they are right or are being taken advantage of. Otherwise you end up with an even worse nanny state than we already have. I wouldn't want anyone telling me I'm not allowed to make a decision because I'm too insecure or ignorant (or poor? Really? Just think about how that sounds for a second) and I doubt many would.

And how many soldiers ever understand the wars they're fighting entirely? How many of us do for that matter? The reasons for the war are immaterial to them, and the decision to go to war is not theirs. Their job is to fight the war and I'm pretty sure those signing up to be soldiers know that fighting (and potentially dying) in wars is what a soldier does.
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They know fighting in wars and taking orders is what a soldier does, but most (not all) 18 year olds have no idea if it really suits them or not. Your not told the amount of soldiers coming back in body bags in these recruitment campaign, nor is the reality of the war being promoted. What is being promoted is a totally false image. But then that's what these campaigns are for aren't they, creating propaganda to make what they are offering seem desirable. If the recruiters were completely honest about the reality, I wouldn't have problem with it. That way, informed and proper decisions can be made.

How many of these campaigns are going on in well established 'respectable' institutions? And how many of them are taking place in areas and institutions where likely too come across a higher percentage of uninformed teenagers with similarly uninformed parents, and who have probably never socialized outside their narrow group of peers?

I'm not saying that 18 year old's (even though I do consider it a bit young to be going to war, personally) shouldn't be allowed to make the choice to become a soldier. What I don't like is how they are recruited and rarely informed the facts.
 
vashdaman said:
They know fighting in wars and taking orders is what a soldier does, but most (not all) 18 year olds have no idea if it really suits them or not. Your not told the amount of soldiers coming back in body bags in these recruitment campaign, nor is the reality of the war being promoted. What is being promoted is a totally false image. But then that's what these campaigns are for aren't they, creating propaganda to make what they are offering seem desirable. If the recruiters were completely honest about the reality, I wouldn't have problem with it. That way, informed and proper decisions can be made.
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Everyone's selling something, whether it's a product or a career or even themselves to a potential employer or partner. And you don't tend to get people to join the Army by telling them the number of soldiers killed last year any more than you sell someone a car by telling them the number of people who have been involved in fatal collisions in said model of car, or snag a girlfriend by telling them how many failed relationships you've had in the past. In any given situation people will twist the facts to encourage others to do what they want them to do, that's just life. For as long as there are people who are able to be manipulated and people who are able to manipulate them. And (bar some kind of wonder drug which equalizes the abilities of everyone on the planet so they're virtual clones) that's FOREVER.

Other people are never going to stop making wrong decisions, and sometimes you will as well. The way I look at that is that I wouldn't want others meddling in my life even to prevent me making wrong decisions (they're *my* descisions after all) so I afford them the same courtesy. Let them make bad decisions based on bad advice, they'll no doubt learn something from the experience. I doesn't really matter to me what decisions people who aren't me take unless they result in my actions or choices being restricted in some way (hence decisions the government makes still matter to me) but I'm happy for anyone whose decisions have no effect on me to do whatever they like.
 
And I wouldn't meddle with their decisions. I would, however, ensure that the military are not allowed to recruit any young person without stating all the facts first, in detail. Therefore they can make a real decision. I think this is especially necessary if they plan on going out of their way to recruit individuals who have such little life experience. But then that was really my initial point, right now our government or military is recruiting, using and harming young men just as any shiesty, selfish bastard would. So why are we not making a bigger fuss over that?
 
'cause no-one notices any difference between them and every other shiesty, selfish bastard that makes up the remainder of humanity, maybe?
 
Well, I was joking in regards to myself and would agree that a truly selfless person, or a deed with a purely selfless motivation is extremely rare (though as long as the action is good that's the main thing), however I would disagree that it doesn't exist. I would say that it does exist , just that very, very few people get to that stage and overcome their senses and desires. Although I know many don't believe this is possible....hmm I better stop or this is going in the diection of another dork v Dawk thread :lol:
 
'cause no-one notices any difference between them and every other shiesty, selfish bastard other than vash that makes up the remainder of humanity, maybe?

Why should it just be the military which has to state the facts in detail to any prospective candidates before they enter into the decision to join? Your use of the phrase "using and harming young men" still implies that you think they're being taken advantage of and need to be protected, like children, whereas I say they're adults who should be allowed to do whatever they like. Where do we draw the line at what is so harmful to an adult human being that they need some form of protection from it? Do heavy industries have to tell people that there is a risk of workers being crushed in the machinery or burned by falling in a furnace? I would presume these things would be self evident to prospective employees, just as I would presume the risks of being in the Army are self evident to prospective soldiers. And if they aren't... well then Mutsumi's right and they're really not that smart. I think most people over the age of four know what soldiers do, let alone eighteen.
 
'cause no-one notices any difference between them and every other shiesty, selfish bastard other than vash that makes up the remainder of humanity, maybe?
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:D

"using and harming young men" still implies that you think they're being taken advantage of and need to be protected, like children,t whereas I say they're adults who should be allowed to do whatever they like.
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Yeah, I thought you would pull me up on that, and I guess it does suggest that to an extent. But it's really not that I don't think they should be allowed to what they want as much as it's, OK if they're gonna do it, at least be sure you really want to do this. And yes I would say that all potentially harmful jobs should disclose the fact of the job, however at the same time, I can't say that I've seen the owners of coal mines come down to colleges, or go on popular radio to tell 18 year old's that they will be bravely serving their country as real life life hero's if they get down the mines or whatever. I would also guess that these days in heavy industry work, there are a lot less casualties then there are in Afghanistan or Iraq. When your at war people are actually trying to kill you and you might have to kill them. It's an intense situation to be in. and I hate to say it, but I really don't think all the war video games we have nowadays are really helping teenagers get a realistic depiction of war, either. So when you add that to the frequent TV and radio campaigns, reinforcing a "cool" image of the soldiers out there, I think it's quite easy to get sucked into the PR hype.

Vash Daman, can you give me an example of a true selfless act?
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An act that is motivated by no form of self interest whatsoever. It could anything that has nothing to do with ones own self interest. But as I said, it's rare, I know I've sure haven't truly achieved anything of the kind. Like I said, it does exist though.
 
I do not believe there is such a thing, Vash. Even the kindest of people feels happiness when doing kind things, therefore preventing their actions from being truly selfless. Everything you do, you do because you would rather do so than to not do so, or to do otherwise.
 
Mutsumi said:
I do not believe there is such a thing, Vash. Even the kindest of people feels happiness when doing kind things, therefore preventing their actions from being truly selfless. Everything you do, you do because you would rather do so than to not do so, or to do otherwise.
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What an awful way to look at the world.
 
VoxPhantom said:
Mutsumi said:
I do not believe there is such a thing, Vash. Even the kindest of people feels happiness when doing kind things, therefore preventing their actions from being truly selfless. Everything you do, you do because you would rather do so than to not do so, or to do otherwise.
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What an awful way to look at the world.
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Which is worse, to see the ugly truth, or the beautiful lie?
 
VoxPhantom said:
Mutsumi said:
I do not believe there is such a thing, Vash. Even the kindest of people feels happiness when doing kind things, therefore preventing their actions from being truly selfless. Everything you do, you do because you would rather do so than to not do so, or to do otherwise.
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What an awful way to look at the world.
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I think it's more semantics. While technically there is no "true" selfless act, as a result things with the intention of selflessness can still be called and seen as selfless. Yes, you might feel good about doing good, but provided the primary motivation was to help others rather than the feeling of 'doing good' then I think that can still be considered selfless, even if you still receive some joy from it. It is nearly impossible to do something for someone else and not feel anything. One might argue that the good feeling is compassion, which can only be a good thing to spread.

Also, Mutsumi, that beautiful lie thing is delightfully melodramatic; you are not monolouging in a play on broadway :p
 
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