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- Thread starter Tachi
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Rena Ryuugu
Oyashiro-Sama
Bye Ayase 
*waves*
*waves*CitizenGeek said:
Yes but in ireland you have irish culture forced down your throat. Ireland is only second behind america in countries that kiss their own asses. Since ive moved to dublin its all hear. Irish this and ireland that.
Irish constantly whining about the english and how evil they are. Every single irish advert has to announce that its irish. Slogans like "the difference is, its irish" it really makes me uncomfortable. Things like this is what makes me so reluctant to accept my irish heritage. I always refer to myself as british. When i have to show my british passport for identification, if looks could i would be 6ft under.
As far as im concercened ireland shows no bend whatsoever when it comes to other peoples cultures. Even the history that is taught in schools is completely biased.
I was watching the late late show(its an irish talk show) on the afew nights ago and they had a young irish actress on and when she said she prefered walkers over tayto, the gasps from the crowd was unbelievable! because she liked an english product over an irish one 0_o
Also only 3% of homes in ireland speak irish yet 2 out of the 4 terrestrial channels speak irish and and every sign is in english and irish... sometimes only irish. I dont know how many people ive met who have claimed they speak irish yet when asked to string a sentence together all they know is hello and english slanders.
I'm not attacking you cg btw, this has just been raging inside me since i moved here.
Tachi
Mushi-shi
Have to say CG...that was a good post, i agree with it and only wish to add one aspect but on a general scale.....when people go to another country to live i think it detrimental to be able to communicate in the nations language.
Should i choose to go live in pain...i would strive to learn the lingo and fit into their lifestyle. rather than come from another country and try to change things.
Nationality traits and history make us who we are. and when i see people coming into this country and walking around town talking in their mother tongue to people in industries (example: a polish person trying to talk to my friend leo whilst he's at work at Lloyds and leo doesn't speak polish) its rather annoying. Not to mention rude of the polish person.
Similarly when Some cultures come across here and appeal to the government to allow the public to do honour killings (as they can do in their culture) the only problems with that are....1 its murder, 2 its a primitive thing to do; *you've disgraced our family, i'm going to kill you* mentality. 3 it has the potential to turn into a civil war or a citywide bloodbath. and so far this country doesn't have them problems.....so other nationalities coming across here and trying to change things is another thing that i feel is a step too far.
Should i choose to go live in pain...i would strive to learn the lingo and fit into their lifestyle. rather than come from another country and try to change things.
Nationality traits and history make us who we are. and when i see people coming into this country and walking around town talking in their mother tongue to people in industries (example: a polish person trying to talk to my friend leo whilst he's at work at Lloyds and leo doesn't speak polish) its rather annoying. Not to mention rude of the polish person.
Similarly when Some cultures come across here and appeal to the government to allow the public to do honour killings (as they can do in their culture) the only problems with that are....1 its murder, 2 its a primitive thing to do; *you've disgraced our family, i'm going to kill you* mentality. 3 it has the potential to turn into a civil war or a citywide bloodbath. and so far this country doesn't have them problems.....so other nationalities coming across here and trying to change things is another thing that i feel is a step too far.
chaos
The Boss
This is sort of gettign away from the original convo, in a true AUKN styelTachi- said:
No working VISA is issued to people who can't prove they speak english. They issue student VISAs though, but it all part of the thing about studying english, you know.
Second, no culture heritage superseeds the law period! Killing is unlawful? then Hounour killing is as well!!!
Trying to force other cultures is totally no the point in here. While it may make the headlines of newspapers, it will never happen! there will always be stupid people, no point in listening to them, but showing them on the newspapers sells more papers. IMO, it's just like the guy who say rape is not a serious crime.
Tachi
Mushi-shi
i have to thank CG for that... atleast now the raw nerve topic has dissappeared off abit.Skikes: i've just seen another post on another forum regarding the late late show
must go have a look now.erm....i'm thinking of going across to Ireland to see family sometime soon....only problem is...its always a "Your going to go see your great aunt such an such, and uncle whatshisface then tomorrow your cousins" your pretty much herded round the family residences like sheep.
And there's always a front room just for guests lol the back room is more like a living room. weird huh
I'm off people, enjoy your evening....and no wrecking the thread!
Wow, some really interesting chat in this topic today!
This man speaks the truth. My stepmother is an immigrant (legally so) and even being married to a local citizen she has had to spend enormous amounts of time and money to get proper recognition over here; it's insane. It would be far easier to have done it illegally, frankly, and I'm aghast at how difficult it is for a normal person to get through the system. Just because the newspapers latch onto our fears about immigrants doesn't mean they're just flowing in easily; most of them really work for it and love the country much more than many of the locals.
I agree that a person being unable to communicate in the language of the country they happen to be in is incredibly frustrating, but just want to point out that I think the British are one of the worst offenders for this! I've been appalled numerous times when overseas to find my fellow countrymen refusing to even attempt to learn the local languages and just bullishly shouting away in English until someone is summoned who can deal with them, then looking smug about their communication skills. I had a grandfather who was terrible for this. I remember sniggering when we went to France and he demanded a "glass" repeatedly for his beer in a cafe. He was not too pleased when a patient waiter proudly presented him with a jug of ice ("glace") in response.
I've found the comments on Ireland very interesting too. Even though I have a friend from over there (and ancestral roots myself) we hear very little about Ireland's culture aside from St Patrick's and general imagery of glorious countryside/pubs. I think that wanting to balance a country's unique culture whilst accepting others is an interesting topic.
Where I'm living now (a certain district near London) is extremely multicultural; it's actually very much like ayase's ideal. I love it. We have access to all kinds of tasty exotic foods here and almost every house in my street celebrates different festivals so there's a good atmosphere. I know there are some parts of London in a different situation, mostly caused by the unfortunate correlation with extreme poverty in certain cultural groups over here. I'd like to see the positive effect of mixing cultures I enjoy here spread to places like that so more people can benefit from it.
I have some experience of the other extreme, having grown up "oop north" in a fairly old fashioned town where racist observations were normal and any kind of non-British person was seen as a strange anomaly. I still have family members with that mindset; my husband is ethnically half Chinese and one estranged aunt's first question to me when we began our relationship was, "oh, does he have slanted eyes?" rather than anything meaningful about him. I don't really know what to respond to that kind of thing. I prefer a world without so much focus on trivial differences between us all, personally.
R
chaos said:
This man speaks the truth. My stepmother is an immigrant (legally so) and even being married to a local citizen she has had to spend enormous amounts of time and money to get proper recognition over here; it's insane. It would be far easier to have done it illegally, frankly, and I'm aghast at how difficult it is for a normal person to get through the system. Just because the newspapers latch onto our fears about immigrants doesn't mean they're just flowing in easily; most of them really work for it and love the country much more than many of the locals.
Tachi- said:
I agree that a person being unable to communicate in the language of the country they happen to be in is incredibly frustrating, but just want to point out that I think the British are one of the worst offenders for this! I've been appalled numerous times when overseas to find my fellow countrymen refusing to even attempt to learn the local languages and just bullishly shouting away in English until someone is summoned who can deal with them, then looking smug about their communication skills. I had a grandfather who was terrible for this. I remember sniggering when we went to France and he demanded a "glass" repeatedly for his beer in a cafe. He was not too pleased when a patient waiter proudly presented him with a jug of ice ("glace") in response.
I've found the comments on Ireland very interesting too. Even though I have a friend from over there (and ancestral roots myself) we hear very little about Ireland's culture aside from St Patrick's and general imagery of glorious countryside/pubs. I think that wanting to balance a country's unique culture whilst accepting others is an interesting topic.
Where I'm living now (a certain district near London) is extremely multicultural; it's actually very much like ayase's ideal. I love it. We have access to all kinds of tasty exotic foods here and almost every house in my street celebrates different festivals so there's a good atmosphere. I know there are some parts of London in a different situation, mostly caused by the unfortunate correlation with extreme poverty in certain cultural groups over here. I'd like to see the positive effect of mixing cultures I enjoy here spread to places like that so more people can benefit from it.
I have some experience of the other extreme, having grown up "oop north" in a fairly old fashioned town where racist observations were normal and any kind of non-British person was seen as a strange anomaly. I still have family members with that mindset; my husband is ethnically half Chinese and one estranged aunt's first question to me when we began our relationship was, "oh, does he have slanted eyes?" rather than anything meaningful about him. I don't really know what to respond to that kind of thing. I prefer a world without so much focus on trivial differences between us all, personally.
R
Otaku-san
Chuunibyou
Tachi- said:
.... >.>
i found out ignorance really isn't bliss. that and your fat
my posts have been taking long to answer since i was busy most the day. some of it thinking up more memes of ryo-chan. though i wouldn't mind if 90% of girls would ware this gif on a shirt now.
i'm seeing that most of this topic has turned about red tape, and so i reply and say, Yes. The government runs at such a pace, that it would make any sweaty obese twunt look like Evel Knievel
ayase
State Alchemist
This is something which disturbs me about Devolution (the clue's in the name really isn't it? De-evolution, as in going backwards). Suddenly we seem to have English flags flying everywhere when it used to be the Union Flag, and the Scottish government constantly whining about England and secession even moreso than they used to... give people an inch they take a bloody mile. This upsets me too, I don't like nationalism in any form, no matter how subtle. With English, Scottish and Irish heritage I feel British not English and think it would be a real backward step to return to four countries when we currently have one. I'd rather we were all absorbed into Europe together - that may finally sort the Northern Ireland problem out too. But the fact that Britain never got over 'England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales', unlike somewhere such as Germany (which was about ten million countries until fairly recently in historical terms) shows how truly crap we are at integrating with one another even on these islands.skikes said:
Hooray! It is possible then - I did happen to discover that when I went to Canada. It has to be one of the least racist countries, and Toronto one of the most multicultural cities on earth. It's really nice to go out for a drink with a Black guy, a White guy, an Indian girl and a Korean girl and for it feel totally normal and no-one to be made uncomfortable. It seems like it needs big cities for this to happen though. Sadly smaller communities seem doomed to propagate bigotry forever. Which is a real shame as I don't really like cities that much. They're nice to visit but I wouldn't wanna live there - hence I favour hitting the heads of racists in small communities against walls until we knock some sense into them.Rui said:
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
skikes said:
Well, the whole hatred of the English thing is generally tongue-in-cheek. At the same time, the Irish still hold a small grudge against English because the English treated the Irish so horrifically badly. The attempts at forcefully taking our religion, language, land, culture; the starvation of the Irish people with the famine (there was enough food in Ireland during the potato blight to feed everyone, but the English still kept exporting Irish food - it was basically genocide) and the general reign of oppression that Ireland was under for about 800 years. And the fact that England still owns a part of this island. All of this is bound to embitter people to a small degree, but it's certainly nothing serious. Also, many of the poems and literature Irish students read in school is either about the utter despair and hopelessness felt by the Irish throughout the ages as a result of English oppression or it's about a romantic longing for Ireland's freedom. This, too, adds to a slight feeling of negativity towards England. Kind of like how Jews, by and large, are not bigoted towards Germans or anything even like that nowadays, but there's still a small feeling of bitterness; which is understandable and entirely reasonable. If there was any real bigotry in Ireland that is directed towards the English (and I've never heard of it let alone seen any of it), then I, of course, would be disgusted.
Also, the companies that promote themselves on the basis that they're Irish are not doing so to stoke the flames of nationalism. It's just about supporting Irish jobs and the like. Every single country does it, I would imagine. I don't think it's fair to connect the tiny, mostly tongue-in-cheek negative attitude the Irish have for the English with the promotion of Irish companies on the basis of their Irish-ness.
I'm quite perplexed at your assertion that Irish people are particularly protective of Irish culture and customs. I really don't that in any meaningful way. There is no Irish BNP, no Irish-Jean Marie LePen.
You're from Belfast, right? Are you Irish or Scottish? Or like a mixture of both?
Not true at all. Most government literature is printed in Polish as well as in Irish and English. The Garda Síochana (Irish for Guardians of the Peace; Irish police service) used to have a requirement that all applicants be proficient in the Irish language but have recently done away with it to encourage immigrants to join the force. Irish people work with and socialise with Polish immigrants all of the time. As for the history taught in schools: as someone who has actually attended first-level, second-level and is now attending third-level education in this country, I can say that Irish history is absolutely not presented in a way that is nationalistic or anything like that. What do you mean when you say it's biased? :s
I can actually link to that interview and it's plainly obvious that the crowd was being very tongue-in-cheek about it. Haha, are you serious, though? Most people were probably just shocked that someone prefers any kind of crisps to Tayto because that brand is so beloved here.
Irish has a special place in Ireland as mandated by the constitution, and why shouldn't it? It is our language after all and the rights of those who speak Irish should of course be protected in Ireland of all places. True, only about 3% of people speak Irish at home but a much greater percentage speak fluent Irish as a result of learning it at school (where it's a compulsory subject). Many schools even conduct all of their activities in Irish. Such schools are called Gaelscoil and I attended one and I am fluent in Irish as a result. Also, I can't think of one specifically English slander and I've been speaking the language for almost all of my life. Could you tell me about these slanders? I'm not saying you're being dishonest, please don't misunderstand, I'm just genuinely curious.
Tachi- said:
Yep, I agree in general. But at the same time I think it's important to understand how much a Polish person has sacrificed to come to these countries of ours, all in order to build a better life for themselves. We must understand how difficult it is to give up your own country and your friends and family because you have no other choice. As such, I really would not be as harsh as you are. Oh, and either you've missed a word or two there or you don't know what "detrimental" means
Rui said:
Haha, that's pretty hilarious! I agree though, Irish people are just as bad for not making any kind of effort to learn foreign languages when going abroad and so complaining about other people doing the exact thing doesn't cut it.
Ireland is a pretty cool place. Have you ever visited?
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
ayase said:
Wow, that's pretty shocking terminology to be honest. It's like you're lamenting the desires of Scots to be independent. If that's what the Scottish people desire, then why should England hold them back?
But the truth is the UK is not one country, even if it technically is. There are four ethnic groups in Britain - Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh. All of which have their own homeland and their own languages and their own cultures.
Uh, both situations are very much not analogous. Germany, even when it was divided up into many different states (Prussia, Westphalia, etc.) was always made up of ethnic Germans who spoke German. In the UK, there are, like I said, three ethnic groups and therefore three different cultures and different languages. In Northern Ireland, Scottish were given Irish land, displacing Irish people there, etc. Obviously that was never going to work out. Scotland and Wales are still fiercely independent, too.
ayase
State Alchemist
But they aren't really that different are they? I mean accents aside (and there are plenty of those within each country of the UK!) it's not as though the average Scot or English person leads a radically different life, or as if their wants and needs are any different, or any of them are somehow being oppressed by the other. And when you list those ethnic groups you omit people of mixed backgrounds within the UK, which I imagine counts for a lot of us.CitizenGeek said:
I'm all for celebrating local culture, but I don't see why that has to go hand in hand with being so fiercely independant politically - It's something Britain is as guilty of in Europe as Scotland is in the UK. If other different cultures can come together to form united countries and, to some extent, even some countries of the European mainland can put aside their differences for the good of a united Europe, then I don't understand why we haven't been able to do that here. It's not that I begrudge anyone their independence, I just think it's time (as with the racism issue) we should be looking beyond the differences which divide us to the similarities which unite us.
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
That kind of lofty rhetoric about putting aside differences, etc. is nice and all but it's really not that practical. A homeland is very important to people, obviously. Irish people died for the independence of this country, the same has happened all over the world. I'm sure Jews in Israel don't lead lives that are at all that radically different to us either, but are you going to say that they're wrong for wanting their own homeland?
chaos
The Boss
whenever a british person complain about something in London or UK in general, I usually think to myself "if they only knew..." =PRui said:
The UK have plenty of these ads as well. I don't watch TV, so I can only speak of one or two that friends tell me about. The most recent ones are those from this insurance company who claims to have "call centres in the UK".CitizenGeek said:
ayase
State Alchemist
I guess I may have fallen into my own trap a little here, after saying people should try and understand each other and their points of view... It is hard to empathise with others if you don't understand them, and while I understand the basic reasons people want a 'homeland' I personally don't feel any great need for one, so I don't know what it's like to feel so strongly about it. I do feel strongly that we should be making the world smaller and tearing down barriers. It may sound a little idealistic but then I try to be positive about these things. ::shrugs::
The Zionist position I understand from this perspective - As a race the Jews have been put in very weak and powerless positions at various times through history culminating of course in the Holocaust, and I can certainly understand that they never want to be in a position where anything like that can happen again. That, I believe, is why they fight so hard (and some might say rather ruthlessly, but that's a different topic entirely) to secure a place for themselves which they are in total control of. This would be next to impossible without physical territory, granted - But for people who aren't ever likely to suffer that kind of racial or ethnic oppression I don't see why a physical, political entity is needed for them to enjoy that same independence, provided the laws of the nation they inhabit are fair to all. In the UK, the Scots or Welsh aren't treated any differently to the Irish or the English.
The Zionist position I understand from this perspective - As a race the Jews have been put in very weak and powerless positions at various times through history culminating of course in the Holocaust, and I can certainly understand that they never want to be in a position where anything like that can happen again. That, I believe, is why they fight so hard (and some might say rather ruthlessly, but that's a different topic entirely) to secure a place for themselves which they are in total control of. This would be next to impossible without physical territory, granted - But for people who aren't ever likely to suffer that kind of racial or ethnic oppression I don't see why a physical, political entity is needed for them to enjoy that same independence, provided the laws of the nation they inhabit are fair to all. In the UK, the Scots or Welsh aren't treated any differently to the Irish or the English.
That's a little different though, it usually means 'You won't have to try and figure out what someone with a heavy Indian accent is saying over a poor quality telephone connection while you're being charged £2 a minute' which is fair enough, really. I had to deal with a call centre in India once because of problems with my Dad's ISP and it was very tedious. I'm normally pretty good with accents but when you can't even watch someone's lips move it can become very hard to understand accents. Then again, the Irish adverts might just be doing the same thing and appealing to the Irish who find it easiest to understand people with the same accent!chaos said:
Tachi
Mushi-shi
I'm Fat?
Better post a pic to disprove this
To be honest....being partly English, Irish, Scottish, Australian, Japanese and french.....I'm slightly catch 22 :lol: atleast there's been a really in-depth convo regarding touchy subjects thats been handled very well and everyone was considerate and grown up enough to value peoples input, and correct them in some cases where info may have been slightly amiss.
:thumb:
Better post a pic to disprove this
To be honest....being partly English, Irish, Scottish, Australian, Japanese and french.....I'm slightly catch 22 :lol: atleast there's been a really in-depth convo regarding touchy subjects thats been handled very well and everyone was considerate and grown up enough to value peoples input, and correct them in some cases where info may have been slightly amiss.
:thumb:
chaos
The Boss
Looks like an interesting discussion there.
Ok, the call centre does have a reason, but what about british pork, lamb, strawberries, potatoes, etc...
Wouldn't it be the same? There is nothing wrong to be proud of your heritage or with supporting your own country buying produce from it.
It's just that I think that the british does that as well, but it was took for granted before by some people.
Ok, the call centre does have a reason, but what about british pork, lamb, strawberries, potatoes, etc...
Wouldn't it be the same? There is nothing wrong to be proud of your heritage or with supporting your own country buying produce from it.
It's just that I think that the british does that as well, but it was took for granted before by some people.
Voddas
Symphogear
Morning all!!
*checks out previouse page*
Forgive me for no reading all those post essays. Looks like a good convo. Shame I'm earning money instead.
Man it's been SOO busy at work this week. Today has had a complete turn around, the work load just dropped without warning. Now I'm just sat on the internet having done my morning jobs.
Ooh, anyone been watching Tokyo Magnitude 8.0? It looks very good. Just added it to my plan to watch list.... I have far too much to watch. :[
*checks out previouse page*
Forgive me for no reading all those post essays. Looks like a good convo. Shame I'm earning money instead.
Man it's been SOO busy at work this week. Today has had a complete turn around, the work load just dropped without warning. Now I'm just sat on the internet having done my morning jobs.
Ooh, anyone been watching Tokyo Magnitude 8.0? It looks very good. Just added it to my plan to watch list.... I have far too much to watch. :[
CitizenGeek said:
This is exactly what i'm talking about. This is all i've heard from i moved here. It's easy for people who have learned irish history from a text book. I've lived it. I grew up on the shankill, in the heart of troubles, i remember soldiers roaming the streets with rifles. I remember having to leave my home during a riot because there was a bus set on fire outside my house with a bomb inside it. I had an ira bomb bought for me disguised as a ghostbusters car by mum for christmas when i was 2. seriously i **** you not. But i'm not going to pretend i know everything about irish history like every other irish person seems to think they know. Even my boyfriend who is irish argues with me about this whenever he grew up in london.
My opinion on this is that no country is exempt from its share atrocities but ireland is so unwilling to draw a line in the sand. They love holding onto this grudge. A grudge which was partly brought on by themselves. At every given opportunity the Irish would conspire against Britian with her enemys incudling but not limited to the Spanish and the Nazis.
Something i think alot of people forget also is that Ireland doesnt want Northern Ireland back and hasn't for a long time. It would financially cripple this country.
What? I'm Northern Irish and British from a protestant background.
Now this is something even my bf will admit is true. If you want to learn about Irish history school is not the place to do it. Ireland is infamous for its whitewashing of its own history. I'm not going to turn around and say that irish catholics didn't have it rough because they did. But irish history always leaves out when they are the instigators. A good example being a popular story about a young irish lad who was killed by British soldiers. Its always refered to as a tragedy and he's always depicted in murals but what is never mentioned is that he killed 6 soldiers the week before. i can't remember his name but i'll ask brendan when he gets home.
Your right it was tongue in cheek but it shocked me that people would even pick up on it.
I couldnt tell ya, i dont speak Irish. How much tax payers money goes on getting kids to learn a subject which never going to be any use to them whatsoever. How many people is there in ireland who speak only irish? How many people outside of ireland speak irish? Dont get me wrong its important to not let your culture and language die out but it shouldnt be something that every tax payer has to fork out for. If people want to learn irish its available for them to learn, you shouldnt force it upon people.
edit: by the way this is one of my least favorite subjects to discuss. Its all ive had to listen to for a very long time and i really don't much good comes from it. If i had my way no1 would ever speak of it ever again.
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anyways hows everyone?