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Okay people. i think this is where we tow the line on the subject. its had its time, now lets leave it to pass and save there being any tensions growing over it.

Side note....I've got the fanta :thumb: and my mixed meat noodles :D

Cya Mono, stay outta trouble ;)
 
Later Mono! :D

I support what your saying Tachi. I fear this discussuin could lead to one of those moments the forum will talk about in days to come... or am I looking too deeply into the whole thing? lol

I'm back obviously and I've started clock watching. I hate clock watching but once you start, it's a bitch to get out of. ¬_¬
 
I just had to spit into a nearby bucket after seeing that baguette Skikes. Don't suprise my taste buds like that!

Can't go wrong with a meet and cheese sarnie. Toasted wouldn't go a miss either like. XD

I've never stepped into an Ikea. *touch moch wood*
 
Tachi- said:
Lol its not about religion. its about the north giving in to England when we invaded them.
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That's not what happened. The British established plantations in Northern Ireland, whereby ethnic Scots were given land and power there and the Irish natives were displaced.
 
To be honest, the past is the past, & people should grow up. Germany has done far worse to England far more recently than England ever did to Ireland, yet we've been mature & moved on; we don't hate Germany or German people. Those in Ireland who are anti-English because of history should grow up & do the same; as no Englishman alive today had any part in whatever events in history some of the Irish are sore about.
 
CitizenGeek said:
Tachi- said:
Lol its not about religion. its about the north giving in to England when we invaded them.
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That's not what happened. The British established plantations in Northern Ireland, whereby ethnic Scots were given land and power there and the Irish natives were displaced.
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Which in basic terms is more a diplomatic invasion/take over.

But as i said...Subject over, Case closed people. :)
By all means if people want to continue talking about it, do so via PM or on MSN or something, just not here please.

Sounds good Skikes :thumb: try a Italian BMT next time you go to Subway. Pepperami, Salami, ham....and ask for meatballs too. its been titled "the sandwich of death" by kayleigh at work after i struggled to eat it...it also gives heartburn so be carefull lol.
 
CitizenGeek said:
How much tax payers money goes on getting kids to learn a subject which never going to be any use to them whatsoever.
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This isn't the point. I mean, mathematics beyond the basics is largely "useless" too, right? Wrong. Maths helps the mind work logically and enriches our ability to solve all kinds of problems. Learning Irish, too, enriches our minds and helps us connect with our history, etc. While it may not be of any use practically, the benefits of learning the languages are definitely there.
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I fully agree with this point of view. There is very little that is required for you to function as a productive member of society, well even now though I could name tonnes of things I've learned in school and hass no meaning now. History, Geography, Social studies for instance. It's is nice to know, but I can hardly say they are fundamental for someone to carry on a decent honest life without knowing any of these.

I comprehend that education is a basic right and that primary education makes a high difference in the future of people, I also understand that learning a different language makes you sharper, broaden your horizons and all that jazz.

If it helps you connect to your heritage, though is something I truly relate to as well. Learning english connected me to english speaking countries more than I'm connected to Japan, even though I'm a direc descendant of japanese.

Edit:
Mutsumi said:
To be honest, the past is the past, & people should grow up. Germany has done far worse to England far more recently than England ever did to Ireland, yet we've been mature & moved on; we don't hate Germany or German people. Those in Ireland who are anti-English because of history should grow up & do the same; as no Englishman alive today had any part in whatever events in history some of the Irish are sore about.
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Nope. Germany didn't do as bad as the english did to Ireland.
I'm not saying they were nice, I'm just saying that British ruling had centuries to do bad things to the irish.

Past is past? That's true. That those who have feelings of anger for this or that reason to grow up is a bit preposterous.

How many bad things did the british army did in Iraq? Do you have any idea? Is all the death toll there only among Taleban fighters? I don't think so, but to be honest, I'm afraid we will never know.


PS. Steak and cheese footlong sub for lunch and now I wanna go home back to bed... :p
 
CitizenGeek said:
ayase said:
I guess I may have fallen into my own trap a little here, after saying people should try and understand each other and their points of view... It is hard to empathise with others if you don't understand them, and while I understand the basic reasons people want a 'homeland' I personally don't feel any great need for one, so I don't know what it's like to feel so strongly about it. I do feel strongly that we should be making the world smaller and tearing down barriers. It may sound a little idealistic but then I try to be positive about these things. ::shrugs::
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I'm presuming you're English, in which case I accept it would be particularly difficult to understand the importance of a homeland because the English have never had their homeland or their people threatened in the past thousand years or so. But I ask you to consider how you would feel as an English person living in, say, France or something. And knowing that what was once the homeland of your people was now under the control of an Irish empire. And that you couldn't speak your own language any more because it had died out, and that your history was forgotten, etc. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't feel too happy about that hypothetical situation?
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True enough, had it happened to me or within living memory I imagine I'd be pretty sore about it, like I say I understand the Jewish postion more based around the Holocaust than anything else - even though there was a Zionist movement long before, it took that one terrible event to make them finally realise their dream, and do it more or less through force because they really had been backed into a corner at that point. I can understand those in Ireland who fought for self-governance too, because the things which happened to them as a result of tyranny are still in the fairly recent past. But time makes people forgive and forget. British people aren't still mad at the Normans or the Romans for invading and occupying our country, and yes, giving themselves unfair advantages and positions of power over the local population, and changing their original culture and way of life.

The Jews seemed to hang on to that sense of loss from as far back as 70CE, probably due to continued persecution. But would there have been a state of Israel without World War II? I don't happen to think there would. Would Ireland have fought for it's independance from Britain if not for things such as the Famine? Probably not. Kosovo, Bosnia, etc... I understand people's wishes for self governance on the basis of nationality / ethnicity if they're being oppressed, or have been oppressed recently. If they're being treated fairly and equally to everyone else, wanting self governance just seems... Nationalistic, to me. Put it this way, I don't mind if power shifts from London to Brussels as long as Britain is represented, and as long as I as a citizen of Europe still have my say.

To address your first question - I was born in England yes, but I don't feel English. I feel British because I, along with almost every other 'White British' person, am of mixed ancestry. This is another reason I dislike and find so ridiculous English, Scottish or British Nationalism. It would take ten minutes to recite all the different groups which have contributed to Britain's ethnic makeup. WRT your comment to Skikes it seems as though you hold a rather simplistic view of ethnicity. It's certainly not as clear-cut as 'English, Welsh, Scottish'.
 
chaos said:
I fully agree with this point of view. There is very little that is required for you to function as a productive member of society, well even now though I could name tonnes of things I've learned in school and hass no meaning now. History, Geography, Social studies for instance.
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What? this is silly. i'm gonna call you out on this one. but not not now, i have things to do.

Bye peoples
 
I'm making chinese for me and the mrs and we'll probably chill with a movie tonight. I just got a load to watch so we plenty of options. Besides that, she'll be taking nan shopping and I'll be playing Red Faction.
:p

Later skikes.
 
Fair enough :) i'm off to a chinese restaurant with the guys. another one of us is buggering off to Uni this weekend so soon i'll be crossing people off of that pic i posted earlier lol.

Apart from making ben pay his fair share (he's been gloating that he only had to pay £5 the past 2 times we've been out drinking) i'll probably just be relaxing.
 
Yeah, relaxings really all you should be doing on a Thursday. Charging your body for the weekend ahead! Not that I'll be doing anything intresting this weekend.

We're chinese buddies!! :D
 
lol PM me your number and i'll tell you whats on the menu....and if they would mind delivering slightly north :p

Finally saw this "James" guy who went bowling with kayleigh lastnight (i went with my mates, she went with her mates and we all met up) really fancies her and it was the first time i met him. the traditional chav, as bright as a lightbulb with a broken filament. and throwing himself around as if he owned the place.

So being the respectable boyfriend, i sat talking to kayleigh most of the night, bought her a few drinks and sat drinking my beer whilst having a laugh with the guys and bowling, he came over in true chav mentality, acting hard. and started talking to me as if i wasn't worthy of kayleigh, rather funny really. because she told him to leave.

Another win to the normal guy :D
 
Split won't work, as this topic became too big. can't really separate posts, but people are getting annoyed we are posting serious stuff on the general convo? I'll try to manually split this later, but I won't stop posting here now that this got so good :)

Maybe we should have an "Opinions" topic somewhere. I see it could go very wrong though.

All this talk about chinese... I guess I'll make some sprign rolls and a stir fry, chinese style tonight.

skikes said:
chaos said:
I fully agree with this point of view. There is very little that is required for you to function as a productive member of society, well even now though I could name tonnes of things I've learned in school and hass no meaning now. History, Geography, Social studies for instance.
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What? this is silly. i'm gonna call you out on this one. but not not now, i have things to do.
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Bring it on! =D

My mum and dad barely finished the equivalent to year 3 and they lead honest and decent lives.

Many fellow yankees wouldn't be able to point Europe on a map and they too live decent and honest lives. Knowledge can make your life better, but I can't drop "Did you know that Budapest is the capital of Hungary?" casually in any conversation. A cookie if you get the reference here ;)
 
Mutsumi said:
To be honest, the past is the past, & people should grow up. Germany has done far worse to England far more recently than England ever did to Ireland, yet we've been mature & moved on; we don't hate Germany or German people. Those in Ireland who are anti-English because of history should grow up & do the same; as no Englishman alive today had any part in whatever events in history some of the Irish are sore about.
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You obviously have a pretty narrow, or non-existent, understanding of even basic history. German planes bombed London for many months. It was horrible, yes, but it doesn't even compare to the maltreatment of the Irish by the English that took place over 700 years. I think your kind of attitude riles up Irish people an awful lot; whenever an English person refuses to acknowledge the suffering of the Irish for silly nationalistic reasons. No one in Ireland expects English people to accept responsibility for the horrific cruelty of English aristocrats over the centuries, I don't hold you responsible for Oliver Cromwell's reign of terror on this island, but I do expect you to have some kind of understanding of, and a respect for, the facts. Especially if you are going to have an opinion on the issue.

Tachi- said:
Which in basic terms is more a diplomatic invasion/take over.
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What? There was nothing even remotely "diplomatic" about it. Irish people were displaced from their land and ethnic Scottish were given control and told to populate the country in order to secure British control more effectively. Seriously, what are you talking about? Do you understand the word "diplomatic" at all? :s

But as i said...Subject over, Case closed people. :)
By all means if people want to continue talking about it, do so via PM or on MSN or something, just not here please.
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Uh, since when are you in charge of the topics for discussion in a "general" thread like this?


ayase said:
The Jews seemed to hang on to that sense of loss from as far back as 70CE, probably due to continued persecution. But would there have been a state of Israel without World War II? I don't happen to think there would. Would Ireland have fought for it's independance from Britain if not for things such as the Famine? Probably not. Kosovo, Bosnia, etc... I understand people's wishes for self governance on the basis of nationality / ethnicity if they're being oppressed, or have been oppressed recently. If they're being treated fairly and equally to everyone else, wanting self governance just seems... Nationalistic, to me.
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No, even when the Jews were treated fairly in Poland for hundreds of years, they still established a Zionist cause and still longed for their homeland. The Irish were merely emboldened by the attempted genocide of their race by means of the Great Famine; the movement for Irish independence existed centuries before that ever happened, though. Likewise with Bosniak Muslims in the Balkans. There's always this great importance attached to a homeland and as an Irish person, I really understand that, even though I can't exactly explain it all that well.

WRT your comment to Skikes it seems as though you hold a rather simplistic view of ethnicity. It's certainly not as clear-cut as 'English, Welsh, Scottish'.
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No, not simplistic at all. I understand there are lots and lots of people with mixed ancestry and such. But in reality, there are two ethnic groups in Northern Ireland - the Scots and the Irish. And if you're Protestant then you are mostly likely of Scottish descent. That was the point I was making.
 
I don't mind that the conversation continues. Was just getting flash backs to converstaions much like this one that resulted in all out flame wars... the aftermaths were horrific. I over exagerate like. Heh.

@chaos : I want a cookie but you lost me there... :?

Edit:More reading material. ^
 
CitizenGeek said:
ayase said:
The Jews seemed to hang on to that sense of loss from as far back as 70CE, probably due to continued persecution. But would there have been a state of Israel without World War II? I don't happen to think there would. Would Ireland have fought for it's independance from Britain if not for things such as the Famine? Probably not. Kosovo, Bosnia, etc... I understand people's wishes for self governance on the basis of nationality / ethnicity if they're being oppressed, or have been oppressed recently. If they're being treated fairly and equally to everyone else, wanting self governance just seems... Nationalistic, to me.
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No, even when the Jews were treated fairly in Poland for hundreds of years, they still established a Zionist cause and still longed for their homeland.
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Well I have to be honest and say that I don't understand that then. Plenty of Jewish people still seem happy enough today in countries where they aren't oppressed, like Britain and America. Not that I'm suggesting all Jews are Zionists of course, it just it seems plenty of them don't particularly want to make use of the homeland they've regained possesion of. Just as not all Irish Americans returned to Ireland after the establishment of the Irish Free State in 1922. I'm just pointing out that my point of view - not being that bothered about having a homeland, and just living wherever I am / wherever I want - can't be that uncommon.

CitizenGeek said:
ayase said:
WRT your comment to Skikes it seems as though you hold a rather simplistic view of ethnicity. It's certainly not as clear-cut as 'English, Welsh, Scottish'.
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No, not simplistic at all. I understand there are lots and lots of people with mixed ancestry and such. But in reality, there are two ethnic groups in Northern Ireland - the Scots and the Irish. And if you're Protestant then you are mostly likely of Scottish descent. That was the point I was making.
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Thing is though, what culture most people identify with is that of the place they grew up, and nothing to do with their actual heritage. I doubt the descendants of Scots in Ireland think of themselves as Scottish anymore, and you can't say they didn't interbreed with the native Irish population. So are they really Scottish? Or Irish? Scots-Irish? Does it even matter? My answer would be no. Basically, I think the differences between people in the constituent countries of the UK (and indeed the rest of the world) are massively exagerrated - often by, and to serve, the whims of Nationalist politicians. It's great to celebrate your culture and heritage, it's not so great when differences are used to drive a wedge between one people and another.
 
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