The Final Fantasy Debate
- Thread starter Nemphtis
- Start date
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
Lupus Inu said:
As much as I hate the Wii (and I really, really hate it and the fact it's getting so much attention), I think we'd best steer this back on track with the FF discussion.
Cue Nemphtis's attempts at trying to be all "superior" and "knowledgeable" with games
CitizenGeek said:
Quick question; what were my arguments against Final Fantasy?
So now you claim that only an Elitist can be pathetic enough to question how good Final Fantasy is, I see. When have you ever seen me say the Final Fantasy series was bad, and when have I ever claimed something more obscure is more popular than Final Fantasy? Oh and FPS vs. RPG doesn't count as obscure, because don't think I haven't noticed how you just tried to avoid replying to that with anything worth saying, clearly the crowd's on my side when it comes to the obvious. I don't know if you've noticed Geek, but your responses to my posts generally involve you saying "That is drivel/********/wrong/etc." and that's pretty much it, the closest thing to backing up your comments is some crap about Microsoft trying to convince gamers in Japan to get 360s by luring them to their vans with RPGs like some kind of paedophiles. I'm not asking you not to whine when someone says anything bad about Final Fantasy, if there weren't any fanboys on forums I would actually have to get a social life or something.
CitizenGeek said:
Oh I'm sure you do, I can just imagine the shock you have on your face when someone questions the franchise. It's like the Pope saying "You know, I'm not sure if I believe in God." and all his followers are like *GASP* this is pretty much the same thing. I say "You know, even though I love Final Fantasy it's not the greatest thing in the world." and then all the fanboys just *GASP* then proceed to hang me.
Dear AUKN members, I have a question I hope you can answer:
I believe Final Fantasy is a great franchise which has been around for a long time, however the recent flood of spin-offs has offended me as Squeenix are merely taking advantage of their fans. I believe there are many occasions where Square have done something great in a game, but also many where Square have screwed up. Do you think this way of thinking is utterly illogical and petty? Please let me know as soon as you can, thanks.
CitizenGeek said:
So you realise there are issues, but you just can't accept them yourself?
Fanboy's denial, serious business.
CitizenGeek said:
Boo-hoo, it took them five years to develop XII. Guess how long it took John Remero to develop one of gaming's biggest failures in history? Yeah I'm talking about Daikatana, you think because that game was in development for so long I'm just going to say "Hey, this is the worst thing I've ever played, but let's go kiss John Romero's ass regardless!" I don't appreciate what a developer or publisher does simply because my lips aren't on their ass? Interesting point of view but I simply must disagree, and I'd like to flesh out your perspective of this first of all. Read your response carefully, you're basically telling me that because it took FFXII five years to develop, I should ignore any flaws the game had and simply keep quiet about it, plus I'm obviously an ungrateful gamer if I ever do question one of their games, yes? Somehow I think most people won't agree with how you see things, surprise surprise.
Yup, they do a good job with it most of the time, and we're complete FOOLS for demanding that they continue to improve. What have we been thinking all these years? Why do we even need new versions of Photoshop and Microsoft Word each year?! It's "ridiculous" and "impractical" to demand better, we should just stick with what they give us! Oh Geek, thanks for enlightening us all on how to ensure a competitive market is constantly in place. Oh, the wonder of capitalism, eh! No. :]CitizenGeek said:
CitizenGeek said:
Yes, I quote 4Chan and no I never asked you to take me seriously, strong imagination you have there. Microsoft need Sakaguchi's help because there were no freakin' RPGs for the Xbox, and Microsoft wants to ensure their selection of games is much more balanced this time around. Blue Dragon is shifting 360s, are you kidding me? Blue Dragon hasn't made a big enough impact for Microsoft in Japan, and it's not even a great game thus only selling due to the studio's well-known figures rather than the game. The example you gave me for RPGs in Japan further proves my point that aside from Japan, RPGs aren't a huge deal to the gaming masses. As for FFXIII being widely considered the PS3's trump card, yes I think you're absolutely right because the people on the Final Fantasy fansite you visit would tell you that, but back in reality and back on this very forum itself as you can see people disagree with your 'widely considered' ********. Oh and this generation's highest selling console is a joke, since I feel sorry for you I'm going to let you off that one, no need to parade your corpse on more than one street after all.
CitizenGeek said:
Ladies and gentlemen, I rest my case. Thanks for reading!
Trumpster said:
Ah, the force is strong with your common sense.
CitizenGeek said:Cue Nemphtis's attempts at trying to be all "superior" and "knowledgeable" with games
There is no longer a need, looks like I've won the crowd over already.
Next topic, please. :]
IMO Square-Enix holds onto the Final Fantasy name too much, and I mean far too much! Do you know of any other game series that has a 13th sequel or higher, other than the simple series 2000 on the PS2? I'm fine with them constantly making RPGs, they know what they're doing; but I think it's time they layed off slapping the name FF on every game they make.
You're right, I do take this too seriously, I'm afraid I can't help it though.Lupus Inu said:CitizenGeek said:Cue Nemphtis's attempts at trying to be all "superior" and "knowledgeable" with games
I agree.
EDIT: Even if I do agree with Nemphtis he does take this too seriously, srsly.
Videogames, serious business.
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
Nemphtis said:
Oh dear, Nemphtis. It's sad that you think making points with horrible, horrible attempts at humourous analogies work? Sorry, but I gave up on that needlessly long post before I got to the end. If you want to debate, then debate - rather than dancing around the issue with attempts at humour and references that you think make you sound all clever and stuff. And then you congratulate people on their "common sense" when they agree with you. Hah, you're a joke mate and, obviously, you've bored me now. So, I won't continue unless you decide to strip that utter nonsense of a post down to simple, effective English rather than trying to be witty and smart all the time (which, by the way, doesn't work for you at all).
Speaking of pointless quotes, Citizen:
Stupid commentary by Nemphtis.
Nemphtis' arguments are dross.CitizenGeek said:
Nemphtis picks up his sword, and begins his crusade.CitizenGeek said:
Nemphtis has ridiculous opinions.CitizenGeek said:
Geek shudders when he realises Nemphtis has a power level over nine thousand.CitizenGeek said:
Nemphtis has illogical opinions.CitizenGeek said:
Nemphtis ponders if 'presentating' is even a word.CitizenGeek said:
Nemphtis is mistaken.CitizenGeek said:
Nemphtis said something that's total BS.CitizenGeek said:
Please sir, more!CitizenGeek said:
Citizen ponders whether to take Nemphtis seriously or not.CitizenGeek said:
Obviously. >.>CitizenGeek said:
"Bitch, please!" yells Geek, while pimp slapping him.CitizenGeek said:
Oh no, the "not taking you seriously" card, how will Nemphtis respond?!CitizenGeek said:
Nemphtis' campaign is merely a tirade against Final Fantasy.CitizenGeek said:
It's true, Nemphtis should get a life.Lupus Inu said:
Stupid commentary by Nemphtis.
CitizenGeek said:
Maybe I'm just delusional (I probably am, though) but it seems to me you've simply given up? The only reason I wanted to debate with you is because you seem like the stubborn type who doesn't say "Okay, you win." so easily, but you're just giving up on me? If you want to pick an easier subject to discuss then go ahead, as long as the matter can be debated on I'm not really picky what you want to talk about. It's pretty obvious by now that FFXIII is not going to be the PS3's trump card, and the FPS genre is more widely recognised compared to the RPG genre. I think it's about time we move onto a new topic of debate, rather than continuing this pointless cat fight where you claim my opinion is [insert random word] and I respond with [insert witty remark] which gets us nowhere.
Liquid Skin
Magical Girl
Negacion said:
Armoured Core comes quite close, they're up to 4 but each game had at least 2-3 expansions.
But thats a totally different story because Armoured Core is the best series ever made and anyone who disagrees with me is a stinky commie liar!
Liquid Skin said:
I love mecha but Armoured Core bored me so much. The customization was fantastic and I spent hours mesing around with my mechs but when it came to the action, the games are generally lacking. Still, I love the designs in Armoured Core, but simply can't stand the games. You know what, I'll make a topic on the game as I feel like discussing it.
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
Well, at least you refined your silly argument, so I'll go on seeing as you seem to enjoy debates and I do too (though probably not as much as you ...)
So, if FFXIII doesn't matter, then why did FFXII top the charts in Japan, American and Europe. All three continents - FFXII was number 1. In fact, FFXIII is pretty much always number 1 on Famitsu's Most Wanted list (or it rotates the number 1 position with another Square Enix title, DQIX) - whenever there's news on FFXIII, the internets always respond in a big way. Just check the number of comments for certain FFXIII news items on some blogs. Ask anyone if they'll get a PS3, and they'll say "I'm waiting for games like MGS4 and FFXIII". FFXIII is important, and if it isn't PS3's trump card, then what is?
And do you think more gamers have played Halo, than a Final Fantasy game? Do you think the FPS genre is more recognisable in the birthplace of modern videogaming, Japan?[/b]
Nemphtis said:
So, if FFXIII doesn't matter, then why did FFXII top the charts in Japan, American and Europe. All three continents - FFXII was number 1. In fact, FFXIII is pretty much always number 1 on Famitsu's Most Wanted list (or it rotates the number 1 position with another Square Enix title, DQIX) - whenever there's news on FFXIII, the internets always respond in a big way. Just check the number of comments for certain FFXIII news items on some blogs. Ask anyone if they'll get a PS3, and they'll say "I'm waiting for games like MGS4 and FFXIII". FFXIII is important, and if it isn't PS3's trump card, then what is?
And do you think more gamers have played Halo, than a Final Fantasy game? Do you think the FPS genre is more recognisable in the birthplace of modern videogaming, Japan?[/b]
CitizenGeek said:
I'd hate to break up our tearful reunion but to be very frank with you I didn't refine my silly argument at all. Sorry but I was trying to discretely rub in the fact that all you could respond with was a short message where you couldn't come up with any answers to my points so you merely gave up. Surprisingly you didn't throw a fit at me, but instead wanted to continue the debate so for that you earn some kudos. However I'd like to make it clear that my 'silly' argument still withstands, and as you can see the majority agrees with that 'silly' argument too.
CitizenGeek said:
Erm, this is a bit too easy to answer for my liking but I guess beggars can't be choosers. To begin with, Final Fantasy is not the only game that tops the charts in Europe, America and Japan. We have already pointed this out to you earlier in the topic, Halo was at the top of the charts even in Japan where they don't play action titles too often. As for Famitsu, I don't think you're getting the message about Japan vs. The West. You may have noticed this, but Famitsu is a Japanese gaming magazine only available in Japan.
Everyone and their dog already knows that Japan loves RPGs more than any other genre, this is because people have already pointed this out in the topic already. Now if Japan loves RPGs and Famitsu is a Japanese publication... Holy ****, that means it's totally normal! I think if we lived in Japan and we all read Famitsu, your argument could be considered valid. However we live in the west, and we do not read Famitsu, and everyone does not play RPGs while ignoring every other genre, so sadly it's not very valid.
Okay next on the list is your internet theory, which is great because you haven't mentioned this before, new material to work with is always nice. The internet is a tricky thing, however most casual gamers aren't hardcore enough to visit gaming forums and blogs. Most casual gamers don't even do their research before buying a game or console, they simply go to GAME and some idiot GAME employee will persuade them to buy some random EA games. So you ask why is Final Fantasy so anticipated on the internet? It's because only the more hardcore gamers discuss this kind of **** online, that's why. EA have made a division within the company recently to target the casual market. You can bet your ass they won't be working on an RPG. On my LiveJournal pretty much 80% of my friends are people who talk about gaming in their entries regularly, but they are all hardcore gamers, not people who play a game every now and again.
To answer your question on what I think is the PS3's trump card, I suggest you attempt the impossible and actually read the previous entries properly. Half of what you've said has already been discussed between us, you're just repeating the same thing all over again. The only new element you've bought forward is the internet debate, which is going to be fun but that's not enough.
CitizenGeek said:
Final Fantasy is a multi-platform franchise that has been around much longer than Microsoft's Halo franchise. Final Fantasy is far more recognised in Japan than any other franchise in the history of video games. That's Japan however, and even though Japan was the birthplace of modern gaming, it's just one country. You're running out of excuses, and trying to use the RPG genres excellent past as a reason for why it's still powerful, when it isn't. As always, I agree that RPGs were once quite infamous not just in Japan, but thanks to Final Fantasy they really got noticed worldwide. However that was in 1998, and we are now in the year 2007. The new generation of consoles is here, with a new audience and a new objective for developers and publishers. The more you sit there in denial regarding the obvious, the more this will go around in circles.
Here's an idea, if you can't see the common sense and simply insist that RPGs are somehow much more popular in the casual market compared to action games, maybe we should finally move onto a new debate perhaps?
Edit: Correcting a typo, this reply turned out way longer than I planned.
A shame you didn't notice my sarcasm.Lupus Inu said:
Zen 2nd said:
This is a great new subject to debate, as I've seen it argued upon many times. I think it depends on the battle system. Let's take my favourite, Final Fantasy VII as the example. Battles are turn based, and there is no skill involved but rather knowledge. If you know how to set up your Materia, and make sure your character's equipment is fairly up to date, you won't really have any issues on the game. The only skill ever involved in my opinion is when they implement the Active Time Battle system into some of the games, but to be honest that barely has any major effects on how I play.
Final fantasy doesn't really need skill more like you said information.
Basically it's about if you really break it down finding information and predicting the enemies next move.
Basically all through the battle you have to work out the opponents next move and use a suitable strategy to overcome them whilst collecting information on weaknesses and hp then working out "if i attack and he counters he could hit 200-300 and i have 251 should i take the risk".
Just thinking ahead and luck is all it's about really.
Basically it's about if you really break it down finding information and predicting the enemies next move.
Basically all through the battle you have to work out the opponents next move and use a suitable strategy to overcome them whilst collecting information on weaknesses and hp then working out "if i attack and he counters he could hit 200-300 and i have 251 should i take the risk".
Just thinking ahead and luck is all it's about really.
L said:
To be honest I'm glad it doesn't require much skill. The reason why I'm drawn to the genre is the plot, characters and customisation. When you're playing an action game, you rarely care for the person you're controlling. When you're playing an RPG and your favourite character just got killed, some people actually break down crying. Still, variety is always good and I do love playing the more action oriented RPGs such as Oblivion for a change, but notice how the more action oriented titles seem to have less customisation and management compared to the rest.
I think strategy is what replaces skill. It's easy killing a monster, a good player knows how to kill a monster quickly and with minimum damage so they consume less items etc. Take Final Fantasy X for example, how each character was good at something specific. You could use Tidus to attack that flying enemy, and eventually kill it, but Wakka would probably kill it in one hit making sure it doesn't get a chance to attack you and saves you some time.
Lupus Inu said:
Yes but I'd have to be on some kind of drug to tell you that the Wii isn't a good console. I could tell you that it's not for me, but there's no denying it's the shizzy right now. The Wii has outsold the Xbox 360 even though it had a year head start, the facts are in my face so I can't say **** about the Wii. Oh wait yes I can, the selection of games right now is pathetic, but understandable since the console is still pretty new. Sure I can play Twilight Princess and Corruption, but then what? Nintendo needs to get wise and start getting some real support with third party titles this time. I don't want them making the same mistake they did with the Gamecube.