Ikki Tousen Dragon Destiny falls afoul of the BBFC... kinda

ConanThe3rd said:
Are you implying that losing one's urinal faculties is arousing?
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Uh, it's a pretty common kink. And even if it doesn't apply I'm sure plenty of people will find something to like amidst hours of bouncing bosoms and torn clothing.

It's fine if you don't, but making sweeping statements works best if they don't have such massive flaws in them.

R
 
Because in Japan it's not remotely questionable. Their obscenity law is black and white unlike ours.

Anime (with very few exceptions) isn't made with a foreign audience in mind, why care about wether it might get cut in the UK when making your DVD extras. Heck even big productions don't think about it in advance, hence K-on! needing cuts to the audio.
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I'm not even talking about laws and all that, I don't care where in the modern world you are- animated footage of clearly under age children participating in sexual activities for the sole puropse of the arousal of an audience - is considered questionable content at the very least.


ayase said:
vashdaman said:
Seems pretty reasonable to cut this kind of rubbish in my opinion. How do the makers even get away with creating this kind of questionable content in the first place?
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A challenger appears!

If it's fictional, people should be free to create and distribute whatever the hell they like. What constitutes "questionable" is subjective, hence any and all censorship of fiction is an unacceptable assault on free expression. People need to realise this, even if all they are cutting at the moment is things you don't personally like or care about. "First they came for the Communists..."

I can understand why actual footage of someone being murdered would be banned. Real suffering has been caused to a real person who has rights within the law. But there are deaths depicted in hundreds of thousands of films which censors never bat an eyelid over. Understandably so, because in a fictional narrative with made up characters no suffering has been caused to anyone. To decide that fiction is harmful to reality or that fictional characters have rights is to become either a totalitarian or a nutjob.
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Hmmm, yes I have heard similar arguments made before, and on paper I really want to agree with such an argument but in reality I don't know that I can, or at the very least I'm torn on the subject.

Obviously fictional characters do not have rights, I would never argue that, but clearly fiction does have the power and potential to be harmful. Don't get me wrong I don't want super censorship of our films, music and everything, but I do feel rather uncomfortable with how children are depicted in these sorts of cases. Yes its subjective, but if we're honest in this situation child characters are dipicted in a sexual manner not for any meaningful puropse, but simply to arouse and exploit a certain audience, and in doing so encouraging something that really shouldn't be encouraged.

I guess its a similar argument to the whole sex doll thing. If a manufacturer wanted to legally sell child looking sex dolls in UK stores, would you be ok with that or not? I wouldn't. No it's a real child, but yes it does encourage pedaphile's. How can we lock them up and damn them when we've only added fuel to their fire with such things.

Granted this particular situation is no where near as extreme, but it does contain certain similarities and it is more mainsteam and widely accessible.

I would love to say their should be no censorship of fiction at all, and I still want to say it. But when I look to Japan and see such things, I have to kind of conclude that the media would abuse that freedom ignoring their responsibilities, and put out content simply so they can profit from exploitation.
 
vashdaman said:
ayase said:
vashdaman said:
Seems pretty reasonable to cut this kind of rubbish in my opinion. How do the makers even get away with creating this kind of questionable content in the first place?
Click to expand...
A challenger appears!

If it's fictional, people should be free to create and distribute whatever the hell they like. What constitutes "questionable" is subjective, hence any and all censorship of fiction is an unacceptable assault on free expression. People need to realise this, even if all they are cutting at the moment is things you don't personally like or care about. "First they came for the Communists..."

I can understand why actual footage of someone being murdered would be banned. Real suffering has been caused to a real person who has rights within the law. But there are deaths depicted in hundreds of thousands of films which censors never bat an eyelid over. Understandably so, because in a fictional narrative with made up characters no suffering has been caused to anyone. To decide that fiction is harmful to reality or that fictional characters have rights is to become either a totalitarian or a nutjob.
Click to expand...
Hmmm, yes I have heard similar arguments made before, and on paper I really want to agree with such an argument but in reality I don't know that I can, or at the very least I'm torn on the subject.

Obviously fictional characters do not have rights, I would never argue that, but clearly fiction does have the power and potential to be harmful. Don't get me wrong I don't want super censorship of our films, music and everything, but I do feel rather uncomfortable with how children are depicted in these sorts of cases. Yes its subjective, but if we're honest in this situation child characters are dipicted in a sexual manner not for any meaningful puropse, but simply to arouse and exploit a certain audience, and in doing so encouraging something that really shouldn't be encouraged.

I guess its a similar argument to the whole sex doll thing. If a manufacturer wanted to legally sell child looking sex dolls in UK stores, would you be ok with that or not? I wouldn't. No it's a real child, but yes it does encourage pedaphile's. How can we lock them up and damn them when we've only added fuel to their fire with such things.

Granted this particular situation is no where near as extreme, but it does contain certain similarities and it is more mainsteam and widely accessible.
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Please, let's not have the paedo conversation again (why must censorship talk always turn to paedophilia?)... T_T

Your opinions are certainly held by a large majority of the population vash, but what I'll always maintain is that you can't stop someone being a paedophile any more than you can turn someone into a paedophile (I used to say "turn a gay person straight / straight person gay" but that upsets the gays for some reason). The best you can hope for is that they get their kicks from fictional sources instead of harming real pre-sexual children. If you ban fictional depictions, the only other way for them to indulge their desires is in reality. You cannot dissuade someone from finding something arousing.

But that aside, we aren't actually talking about depictions of paedophilia here. As I mentioned before, quite horrific rape and murder of adults can be depicted in horror films and nobody bats an eyelid. But an (apparently, according the the BBFC) under-age girl witnessing somebody's boobs being groped? Ban. That's tame, that's nothing. It certainly isn't getting paedophiles off or encouraging under-age sexual activity. However, belief in Paedogeddon is obviously still strong enough to warrant such ridiculous ideas.
 
Firstly let me just state I haven't actually seen this footage, I was simply going off Fabricated's description, which certainly made it sound like it was a scene involing a child character in a semi sexual situation simply for arousal puropses.


Anyway my point wasn't that this stuff turns people into peadophiles, my point was that it may aggravate those desires in existing peadophiles. I don't think its true to say that a peadophile can't under any circumstances be brought back to balance again with the proper treament and help. So what about the ones who might be receiving help for their problem, but then see some content in the media that is almost specifically designed to bring a resurgence in his old desires. Is it fair to let the media go unblamed? I don't believe the best we can hope for is that they get their kicks from fiction, and I think its ridiculous to think that actually works.

But even forgetting that aspect of the argument, the real question is : what puropse does this content exist for? You see I have less problem with horrific rape in the media, as usually the horrific rape scene serves some puropse either in the story or to draw out an emotion from the audience (other than arousal). Content such as the stuff this censored scene of Ikki tousen serves no meaningful puropse other than to exploit for profit, and I don't think they should be allowed to.

None of this would really be a problem though if the media wasn't as ever pervasive as it is today and no doubt as it will continue to grow to become. The average person, me or you are bombarded on a dailey basis by the media- which can work its way into our sub concious and seeks to draw out emotional reactions from us- to such an extent that it either doesn't fail to have a profound effect on us, or we have to be very mindful to make sure it doesn't. I think the mainstream media should have limitations even in it's fiction, due to the power it holds.

If you want to give away or display comics with these kinds of images in it, out of your house or garage or a little market or wherever than thats fine by me. But I don't think it should make its way into the mainstream mass media.
 
ayase said:
vashdaman said:
ayase said:
vashdaman said:
Seems pretty reasonable to cut this kind of rubbish in my opinion. How do the makers even get away with creating this kind of questionable content in the first place?
Click to expand...
A challenger appears!

If it's fictional, people should be free to create and distribute whatever the hell they like. What constitutes "questionable" is subjective, hence any and all censorship of fiction is an unacceptable assault on free expression. People need to realise this, even if all they are cutting at the moment is things you don't personally like or care about. "First they came for the Communists..."

I can understand why actual footage of someone being murdered would be banned. Real suffering has been caused to a real person who has rights within the law. But there are deaths depicted in hundreds of thousands of films which censors never bat an eyelid over. Understandably so, because in a fictional narrative with made up characters no suffering has been caused to anyone. To decide that fiction is harmful to reality or that fictional characters have rights is to become either a totalitarian or a nutjob.
Click to expand...
Hmmm, yes I have heard similar arguments made before, and on paper I really want to agree with such an argument but in reality I don't know that I can, or at the very least I'm torn on the subject.

Obviously fictional characters do not have rights, I would never argue that, but clearly fiction does have the power and potential to be harmful. Don't get me wrong I don't want super censorship of our films, music and everything, but I do feel rather uncomfortable with how children are depicted in these sorts of cases. Yes its subjective, but if we're honest in this situation child characters are dipicted in a sexual manner not for any meaningful puropse, but simply to arouse and exploit a certain audience, and in doing so encouraging something that really shouldn't be encouraged.

I guess its a similar argument to the whole sex doll thing. If a manufacturer wanted to legally sell child looking sex dolls in UK stores, would you be ok with that or not? I wouldn't. No it's a real child, but yes it does encourage pedaphile's. How can we lock them up and damn them when we've only added fuel to their fire with such things.

Granted this particular situation is no where near as extreme, but it does contain certain similarities and it is more mainsteam and widely accessible.
Click to expand...
Please, let's not have the paedo conversation again (why must censorship talk always turn to paedophilia?)... T_T

Your opinions are certainly held by a large majority of the population vash, but what I'll always maintain is that you can't stop someone being a paedophile any more than you can turn someone into a paedophile (I used to say "turn a gay person straight / straight person gay" but that upsets the gays for some reason). The best you can hope for is that they get their kicks from fictional sources instead of harming real pre-sexual children. If you ban fictional depictions, the only other way for them to indulge their desires is in reality. You cannot dissuade someone from finding something arousing.

But that aside, we aren't actually talking about depictions of paedophilia here. As I mentioned before, quite horrific rape and murder of adults can be depicted in horror films and nobody bats an eyelid. But an (apparently, according the the BBFC) under-age girl witnessing somebody's boobs being groped? Ban. That's tame, that's nothing. It certainly isn't getting paedophiles off or encouraging under-age sexual activity. However, belief in Paedogeddon is obviously still strong enough to warrant such ridiculous ideas.
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I think paedophilia is the new Godwin's Law. While I don't agree with lolicon and the like, it's no different from violent video games. The vast majority of gamers who play violent games are perfectly sane people induldging in escapist fantasy and I'd wager that the majority of loli-lovers aren't paedophiles either and find the very idea of it as abhorrent as everyone else.

I understand both points trying to be made here but I think it's just the case that children are viewed as much more vulnerable and so the law is much stricter in protecting them.
 
Maybe your right Sparrow and maybe I am just too conservative in this particular instance. On the whole though I can be pretty hard line with certain things. For instance I also do actually have a similarly big issue with the video game industry and the consistently violent games it churns out.....
 
vashdaman said:
I don't think its true to say that a peadophile can't under any circumstances be brought back to balance again with the proper treament and help. So what about the ones who might be receiving help for their problem, but then see some content in the media that is almost specifically designed to bring a resurgence in his old desires. Is it fair to let the media go unblamed? I don't believe the best we can hope for is that they get their kicks from fiction, and I think its ridiculous to think that actually works.
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It's probably worth stating that I'm basing my entire argument here on the fact that if I wasn't able to play violent video games, I probably would have murdered someone by now (and let's just say I'm glad I have pornography as well). Maybe I am emotionally unstable and out on a precarious limb over the chasm of insanity anyway, but I certainly indulge my more base desires in fantasy partially as a counter-measure to make sure they never make it to reality. So I think it works.

On your first point, so can you change someone's sexuality? Can you make someone stop preferring large/small breasts? Can you stop people liking bondage / bestiality / scat? I really don't think you can. No-one knows why they have these particular sexual preferences in the first place, and they certainly didn't choose them.

I agree that the power of the media is a problem, but probably in a slightly different way (hence the Brass Eye reference). It's the alarmist, sensationalist media who make perfectly healthy and normal things out to be sick filth which must be banned. I'm pretty sure the media aren't pro-paedo.
 
ayase said:
vashdaman said:
I don't think its true to say that a peadophile can't under any circumstances be brought back to balance again with the proper treament and help. So what about the ones who might be receiving help for their problem, but then see some content in the media that is almost specifically designed to bring a resurgence in his old desires. Is it fair to let the media go unblamed? I don't believe the best we can hope for is that they get their kicks from fiction, and I think its ridiculous to think that actually works.
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It's probably worth stating that I'm basing my entire argument here on the fact that if I wasn't able to play violent video games, I probably would have murdered someone by now (and let's just say I'm glad I have pornography as well). Maybe I am emotionally unstable and out on a precarious limb over the chasm of insanity anyway, but I certainly indulge my more base desires in fantasy partially as a counter-measure to make sure they never make it to reality. So I think it works.

On your first point, so can you change someone's sexuality? Can you make someone stop preferring large/small breasts? Can you stop people liking bondage / bestiality / scat? I really don't think you can. No-one knows why they have these particular sexual preferences in the first place, and they certainly didn't choose them.

I agree that the power of the media is a problem, but probably in a slightly different way (hence the Brass Eye reference). It's the alarmist, sensationalist media who make perfectly healthy and normal things out to be sick filth which must be banned. I'm pretty sure the media aren't pro-paedo.
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I know exactly what you mean Ayase. I wouldn't be some kind of sex attacker without porn, but it keeps me a helluva lot more sane whilst being single. Otherwise I'd probably be trawling bars looking for one night stands, which isn't something I really approve of in the cold light of day.

Also I think video games breed violence, but not in the way the media thinks. If you're doing well at a game everything's fine, but if you start to lose you often get violent (or at least more sweary) :p
 
vashdaman said:
Anyway my point wasn't that this stuff turns people into peadophiles, my point was that it may aggravate those desires in existing peadophiles. I don't think its true to say that a peadophile can't under any circumstances be brought back to balance again with the proper treament and help. So what about the ones who might be receiving help for their problem, but then see some content in the media that is almost specifically designed to bring a resurgence in his old desires. Is it fair to let the media go unblamed? I don't believe the best we can hope for is that they get their kicks from fiction, and I think its ridiculous to think that actually works.
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Does seeing a sexualised depiction of an adult make you go out and comit rape? no?
Does it do this to many others?
(any actual studies have always shown the oposite, i.e more porn available= less rape)
The main problem is in people being harmed in the production of smut, which here is a non-issue.

Yes the media is blameless (we're individual and will all react in different ways and hold different values on where lines should be drawn), the mentaly ill person who was (or more likely claimed in defence) afected by it is wholly responsible and should be rightly locked up as a danger to others.
 
ayase said:
It's probably worth stating that I'm basing my entire argument here on the fact that if I wasn't able to play violent video games, I probably would have murdered someone by now (and let's just say I'm glad I have pornography as well). Maybe I am emotionally unstable and out on a precarious limb over the chasm of insanity anyway, but I certainly indulge my more base desires in fantasy partially as a counter-measure to make sure they never make it to reality. So I think it works.

On your first point, so can you change someone's sexuality? Can you make someone stop preferring large/small breasts? Can you stop people liking bondage / bestiality / scat? I really don't think you can. No-one knows why they have these particular sexual preferences in the first place, and they certainly didn't choose them.

I agree that the power of the media is a problem, but probably in a slightly different way (hence the Brass Eye reference). It's the alarmist, sensationalist media who make perfectly healthy and normal things out to be sick filth which must be banned. I'm pretty sure the media aren't pro-paedo.
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lol, fair enough, I guess we all have our own ways in dealing with things and I certainly won't judge.

As for, do I think it's possible to change someones sexuality? Well its a rather complicated subject to be honest. On the whole though, I would probably say no, for example I don't really think its possible nor neccessary to change a homesexual into a hetro and so on,however with peadophillia, I think it may be slightly different. A peadophile is so far out of balance that it would make it near impossible to find any true peace in this life, and I would think many peadophilles aren't actually born that way but many other factors have led them to be in the state they are in now, meaning that if they have the desire I believe it is possible with guidance for them to return to a more balanced state to some degree. Are some people born peadophiles? Maybe so, maybe it was their karma, but it could be possible even for these individuals to take steps towards adressing the issue I believe. Certainly there are many that can't and won't be helped in this life, but surely not all.


I don't think we should worry about any kinkiness in sex lives nor do I think we should change it or repress, but with something as life ruining and destructive as peadophilla, I can't help but think if the individual has a yearning to change then there are surely steps they can take to bring some measure of peace to their lives.

As for media, I'm just as against the sensationalist alarmist media as you are trust me! And no I don't think the media is pro- paedo, but I do think in much of the media profit comes first no matter what. The profit proves more important than the negative consequences of their work. I also have some rather more "out of the box" conspiracy theories, but I think I'll leave them for another day maybe lol.

err, anyway I don't think this has much place in the anime section. Sorry for getting a bit carried away folks!
 
vashdaman said:
As for media, I'm just as against the sensationalist alarmist media as you are trust me! And no I don't think the media is pro- paedo, but I do think in much of the media profit comes first no matter what. The profit proves more important than the negative consequences of their work. I also have some rather more "out of the box" conspiracy theories, but I think I'll leave them for another day maybe lol.

err, anyway I don't think this has much place in the anime section. Sorry for getting a bit carried away folks!
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It's an offshoot from a censorship discussion about BBFC regulations I'd say it's still on topic, if a little tangental.

Also I think the media is just pro-money. They'll go with whatever story sells the most papers.
 
Reaper gI said:
vashdaman said:
Anyway my point wasn't that this stuff turns people into peadophiles, my point was that it may aggravate those desires in existing peadophiles. I don't think its true to say that a peadophile can't under any circumstances be brought back to balance again with the proper treament and help. So what about the ones who might be receiving help for their problem, but then see some content in the media that is almost specifically designed to bring a resurgence in his old desires. Is it fair to let the media go unblamed? I don't believe the best we can hope for is that they get their kicks from fiction, and I think its ridiculous to think that actually works.
Click to expand...
Does seeing a sexualised depiction of an adult make you go out and comit rape? no?
Does it do this to many others?
(any actual studies have always shown the oposite, i.e more porn available= less rape)
The main problem is in people being harmed in the production of smut, which here is a non-issue.

Yes the media is blameless (we're individual and will all react in different ways and hold different values on where lines should be drawn), the mentaly ill person who was (or more likely claimed in defence) afected by it is wholly responsible and should be rightly locked up as a danger to others.
Click to expand...

Hmm, I agree the people harmed in the production of smut or whatever is a more serious issue. But if I'm honest I don't particularly like hardcore porn either for that matter, and I really don't think humanity has improved in any way since we've had it.

I also agree that the individual is indeed responsible, I was never claiming they weren't, I just think the media have responsibilities too and that they very often ignore those responsibilities, but this should be expected really, the media is no doubt run by very base people after all. Also it's not just the mentally ill that are afected by the media, you and indeed me are have probably been afected by it more than we even realize over the course of our lives.
 
I think the main problem is that baseless speculation that scares people is always going to win out over reasoned debate that you actually have to think about to appreciate. The problem is only really reflected in media "hate campaigns", the actual form it takes is in general human stupidity.
 
Reading over my posts I've realized that I sound like a bit of a bible basher. I'm not though, really I'm not!

Maybe I should become one though, hmm.....
 
vashdaman said:
Reaper gI said:
vashdaman said:
Anyway my point wasn't that this stuff turns people into peadophiles, my point was that it may aggravate those desires in existing peadophiles. I don't think its true to say that a peadophile can't under any circumstances be brought back to balance again with the proper treament and help. So what about the ones who might be receiving help for their problem, but then see some content in the media that is almost specifically designed to bring a resurgence in his old desires. Is it fair to let the media go unblamed? I don't believe the best we can hope for is that they get their kicks from fiction, and I think its ridiculous to think that actually works.
Click to expand...
Does seeing a sexualised depiction of an adult make you go out and comit rape? no?
Does it do this to many others?
(any actual studies have always shown the oposite, i.e more porn available= less rape)
The main problem is in people being harmed in the production of smut, which here is a non-issue.
Click to expand...
Hmm, I agree the people harmed in the production of smut or whatever is a more serious issue. But if I'm honest I don't particularly like hardcore porn either for that matter, and I really don't think humanity has improved in any way since we've had it.
Click to expand...
Oh, there are definitely victims in the porn industry and that does often weigh on my mind. I'd be overjoyed to live in a world which didn't require pornography, but that world would require human courtship to be as simple as the lyrics to Touch and Go's "Would You...?"
 
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