General Politics Thread

[D1tchd1gger]

If that goes to be Canon wasn't it all because of a woman that got too attached to her vibr*/robot; forbidden fruits and all that.

I haven't seen it for a while either, but as far as I remember it:

Spoiler

Humans make robots with AI and one kills someone so they try it in a court of law. This leads to the a portion of humanity to start attacking the robots, which leads to robots demanding a nation of their own, which eventually leads to war, which leads to the idea of blanketing the sky because they use solar power! The super AI leaders then order the troops to use their prisoners as batteries, but it's not very efficient because they die, so they make the Matrix. And eventually ensnare most of humanity.

I have to do a re-watch of The Matrix franchise at some point, been a while since I watched any of it.

 

[Adam-M]

all the female candiates keep saying it’s awful if we vote for a man

Thatcher and May lost that argument for them

 

[thedoctor2016]

That too, the two female PMs were bad and got booted out by men conspiring against them.

 

[Adam-M]

That too, the two female PMs were bad and got booted out by men conspiring against them.

You can specifically state it was men but you can't really deny that the vast majority of people wanted them out

 

[ayase]

You can specifically state it was men but you can't really deny that the vast majority of people wanted them out

Much as it pains me to say it, Thatcher never actually lost a general election. Though I suppose the British public's usual attitude to their leaders is to hate them once they're in office even if they voted for them (and even if they keep voting for them) so I guess.

I'm presuming however that doc is referring to the MPs and party figures who contributed to forcing their resignations, but given the result of that was John Major and Boris Johnson, both of whom went on to win another election for the Tories, I'm not sure they really did anyone any favours.

 

[thedoctor2016]

Yeah the ERG etc were May’s downfall and the pro Europeans Thatchers, oh how the Tories changed in 20 years.
And Thatchers way of departure seems to be quite unpopular now.I’ve noticed a lot more people still like her. May I can’t see opinion changing on as she was crap.

 

[kuuderes_shadow]

a short multiple choice where you can select key policies that matter to you which then votes based on your choices, it would certainly be a lot more impartial and anyone who wants to actually vote tactically for a specific party could play the system anyway by doing their research before hand; at least it would still be an educated vote.

I'd file that under "nice idea in theory but unworkable in practice". Who decides what a key policy is? If it's the parties, they could hide away a deeply unpopular policy by simply considering it as not a key policy. Of course, they can try to hide them away at present but all the press have to do is say "x party is proposing this" and suddenly lots of people know about it, and if its a dealbreaker for them then they can not vote for said party because of it. Whereas under this system they would have to say it as "the party who is proposing x, y and z are also proposing to do this"...

If it's anyone else, there's huge potential for bias in determining the topics.

And either way it would have to be set a fair way in advance, so issues that develop during the campaign could not be taken into consideration.

And what if a voter cares deeply about a topic that all the parties have policies on but which aren't considered key policies? I'd say only about a third of my personal key priorities are ever asked in that big "who should I vote for" questionnaire that someone (I can't be bothered to remind myself who) creates each election, even when expanding it out so that you're answering literally hundreds of questions.

Plus what you would actually get is people voting based on their gut feelings about the policies presented, as decided in the 10 seconds they spend in the polling booth. Which is strongly affected by how they are worded, how they are feeling that day, etc. In other words, a very long way away from the informed opinion that you are trying to encourage.

If anything I'd say the present system is better, although I'll happily acknowledge that is flawed in exactly the way you identified.

At least our system is better than the Australian one, that forces people to vote, in that in this country the people who really don't know and don't care about politics tend to not bother to show up.

 

[zrdb]

When I was growing up I learned that 2 subjects you don't talk to strangers about are politics and religion-either one could get you into hot water in a second. I think the reason so many people are so opinionated these days is they don't know the meaning of empathy. They don't think about anyone except themselves-screw everybody else, me first. Trump (and Johnson too) appeal to visceral emotions, logic gets thrown to the winds-in order to make a logical decision you have to think and gather information so one can make an informed decision. Don't even get me started on "fake news".

 

[ayase]

The sight of the Democrats getting all excited that PNAC and Gatestone Institute warmonger John Bolton might provide them with the smoking gun they need to impeach Trump is just depressing. Of course he would, he’d happily load and fire it. Pushover puppet President Pence would only make it easier for him and his neocon pals to resume their task of gathering skulls for the skull throne. Trying to get Trump to go to war must’ve been like trying to get a hyperactive toddler to go to bed.

Pence on the other hand would need something, anything, going into an election to fill the void where his personality should be. And you can bet Bolton and Co. would be there whispering: You know what makes the people support their President, Mike? You remember Bush’s idiot kid, right? Two terms, Mike. Two words. War. President. All you gotta do is push the button. And somewhere, Dick Cheney will smile because against all odds, he is somehow still alive.

 

[ayase]

Is it me or are we entering another prude era? I would blame the left as they seem to be as bad as conservatives apart from outright cancelling the stuff they want to censor, but politically Japan has been much more conservative than the west is now

Are you familiar with the Political Compass, Cap? Some aren’t fans but I think it serves an important purpose in adding an authoritarian/libertarian axis along with the traditional left/right economic axis.

As someone firmly in the green quadrant, I still often find more common cause with right-social-libertarians who are against things like banning and censoring and no-platforming than I do with left-social-authoritarians who are in favour of those things. The attempted imposition of their own morality on others (or society at large) is something authoritarians on the left and right engage in, and I think the worrying thing for me is how the idea of forcing your beliefs on others seems to be becoming more popular among people in general.

 

[Captaaainuniverse]

I’m also ever so slightly in the green, hints of libertarian with being slightly left of centre, I’m just gonna go with what many slightly in the green go with and say that’s pretty much centrist

there’s also the Overton window though, which is more about where the country, society, media and the government would place on the political compass, though the compass itself isn’t a good measure of society and a country at large
It’s thought by a few centrists that the Overton window has shifted left in the west, it makes me feel I belong more in the purple than the green

 

[ayase]

I’m also ever so slightly in the green, hints of libertarian with being slightly left of centre,

Colour me surprised, we’ve more in common than we might have thought.

there’s also the Overton window though, which is more about where the country, society, media and the government would place on the political compass, though the compass itself isn’t a good measure of society and a country at large
It’s thought by a few centrists that the Overton window has shifted left in the west, it makes me feel I belong more in the purple than the green

See, I think that falls on both axes as well. Socially, society has certainly become more liberal, I’d say probably for the better given that it means we don’t do things like imprison and institutionalise people for being gay or segregate people of different races any more. The authoritarians on the left I wouldn’t call liberal at all, they have more in common in their attitudes with the socially conservative right.

Economically though? No, it’s gone completely the other way. Capitalism is triumphant, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, wages among all but the richest have stagnated and globalisation serves only to pit the have-nots against each other and we’re told (by the “centrists” no less) that this is good - Economic growth is the measure of success, even if it only serves to further line the pockets of the already wealthy.

This is why I think it’s important to look at the overall picture. Smiling social liberals who seem so very reasonable while kowtowing to the corporate elites (cough, Blair, cough, Clintons) are just as distasteful to me as the social authoritarians on either side.

 

[Captaaainuniverse]

Economically though? No, it’s gone completely the other way. Capitalism is triumphant, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, wages among all but the richest have stagnated and globalisation serves only to pit the have-nots against each other and we’re told (by the “centrists” no less) that this is good - Economic growth is the measure of success, even if it only serves to further line the pockets of the already wealthy.

I’m inclined to agree with the economy being more in line with more conservative values than current politics, I do champion capitalism as it allows anyone with the effort to grasp some measure of success, but there are faults, capitalism can go out of control, and as you say at that point the rich get richer while others struggle to pay the bill for basic things.
I believe I’ve said before what I think of taking on more socialist values and communism, but under a communist or strongly socialist system everything would be owned by the state, the people indebted to the government and no drive for anything to grow economically, except for the increasingly greedy political class who own everything, social elites, which would be many middle class names in the UK, want a more socialist country and I don’t get why since they will have to give up everything they have to the government and become the same as working class, communism is only a 2 class system.

also I just don’t think people work that way, they’d have to keep working for “the greater good” for the whole nation, people are far more selfish than that, they will work for what’s closest to them. That and I’d think people wouldn’t make as much of an effort and get careless when there is no personal drive in what they work for

The authoritarians on the left I wouldn’t call liberal at all, they have more in common in their attitudes with the socially conservative right.

This kind of goes back to my point of saying the left is getting as bad as conservatives, the authoritarian left and right censor the same kind of content, it may sound like it’s for different reasons but many reasons are the same, the main difference can be seen in anime now, with conservative censorship being something like how Terraformars originally aired blocking out many scenes, and the liberal form of censorship in the form of removing things like Interspecies Reviewers

 

[Anime1977]

A lot of industries is getting screwed over by the government and I can see the ps5 and the Xbox series x being very expensive next year because I can see price increases due brexit and supply problems if the government don't sort out the Customs issue plus the uk no longer meeting eu standards and that's if we even get a deal. What a shitshow this all going to be plus the risk of losing the human rights act.

 

[ayase]

under a communist or strongly socialist system everything would be owned by the state, the people indebted to the government and no drive for anything to grow economically, except for the increasingly greedy political class who own everything, social elites, which would be many middle class names in the UK, want a more socialist country and I don’t get why since they will have to give up everything they have to the government and become the same as working class, communism is only a 2 class system.

This is why I think it’s important to look at politics, and especially the politics of individuals, as a full spectrum. Authoritarian, statist communism of the type practiced in the Soviet Union would of course occupy the very top left of the compass, but it’s also possible to occupy the bottom left and believe in a more voluntary kind of socialism - Unions and co-operatives, for example, don’t rely on the power of the state to operate but are ways of people uniting for a common good. And to the other point you mentioned about people being self-interested, the purpose of those kinds of associations is for people to help themselves but also help each other, because the truth is that unless you already are very wealthy or powerful, you don’t stand much of a chance standing up to the people who are on your own.

This selfishness in society is also not a given, that’s been instilled in people because of the way society has gone. Most of the progress society has made has been because people stood together to achieve common goals they believed would improve society for everyone, themselves included. That’s how we got charity, healthcare, education, the abolition of slavery and votes for women etc. Hell, however critical I might be of religion, I can recognise the strength of purpose that must have united people to get those medieval cathedrals built. And I don’t think anyone would accuse medieval Christians of being communists.

Absolute self interest is, in my opinion, a base and childish idea - If people believed only in their own self interest, they wouldn’t obey laws (and no-one would enforce laws either). They’d steal from, rape and murder whoever it pleased them to do so to get what they wanted. But as a society, we’ve largely stopped doing those things because we’ve come to the conclusion life is better for everyone if people aren’t behaving that way. And just as we’ve forgone those base instincts for the greater good, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say maybe these ideas should be extended to economics, and that it would be better for people to forego becoming billionaires so we can eliminate things like starvation and homelessness. The idea that one person doesn’t even have to work, because the money they already have earns them more in an hour than some people will see working full time for their entire lives is obscene, surely?

This kind of goes back to my point of saying the left is getting as bad as conservatives, the authoritarian left and right censor the same kind of content, it may sound like it’s for different reasons but many reasons are the same

As for this point, nothing to add to that but a hearty “Amen”.

 

[ayase]

For me identity politics is kinda making me vote for Keir as Labour Leader undeniably he is best qualified for the job he is the ex head of the CPS for god sake, but now all the female candiates keep saying it’s awful if we vote for a man. But he’s the best person I don’t like being guilted for liking him because he’s a man.

Well, put my votes in. Single vote for RLB for leader, Burgon for deputy with second preference for Butler. I don’t expect to get my wishes. Even if Starmer doesn’t win on the first ballot Nandy will be eliminated and her second preferences will go to him.

None of the leadership candidates really enthuse me though, RLB is closest in belief but she’s already moderating her stances (and whoever wins it’s unlikely we’ll see any criticism of Israeli ethnonationalism again, the JLM have seen to that). I’m also not sure she has the temperament or personality to fire people up, but given that middle of the road Starmer and Nandy are the only other choices I’m not presented with a lot of options. Not exactly hopeful for the future of the party if this is the best we can field, honestly.

 

[thedoctor2016]

I voted for Keir 1st Lisa Nandy 2nd, I just want Labour to win at this point and if RLB wins we would just get nothing changed for years and nothing will happen and I feel Keir will keep Labour soft left which is better than this Tory government by miles and DL just put Rayner 1st only want her no one else.

 

[ayase]

Your views would seem to align with a majority at this point Doc. I’m just struggling to understand what changed in members attitudes. I found these YouGov survey results fairly depressing reading, the number of people who are willing to compromise their values for power (like, that 12% of respondents who believe it’s fine to make large compromises to Labour values - Why are they even members of the Labour Party?) and these are presumably the same members who elected Corbyn twice. Did people just get sick of losing? Though for all the blame laid at Corbyn’s door for “losing two elections” everyone seems to have forgotten how rare it is for two elections to take place in as many years, and that in 2017 Labour’s vote share was the best since 2001 and the first time they actually gained seats since 1997 (nothing will convince me 2019 was really about anything other than Brexit, I’d very much like to be able to view the alternate timeline where Labour stood on a pro-Brexit position).

It just feels like politics in the UK is heading back to being boring and uninspiring. At least I’ve got Bernie Sanders to look forward to, who I note is currently being smeared in exactly the same way as Corbyn for daring to have positive things to say about people the groupthink says are 100% EVIL AND INCAPABLE OF DOING ANY GOOD EVER and not supporting Benjamin Netanyahu (because supporting right wing ethnic nationalists is totally what’s expected of the left). I am interested to see how they manage to smear a Jewish guy as being anti-Semitic though, I’m guessing with a healthy dose of “no true Scotsman” fallacy.

 

[zrdb]

So far at the conclusion of super tuesday Biden has inched ahead of Sanders. I'd be fine with either one as long as trump gets his fat ass booted out of the White House's front door.

 

[ayase]

So far at the conclusion of super tuesday Biden has inched ahead of Sanders. I'd be fine with either one as long as trump gets his fat ass booted out of the White House's front door.

I’m surprised how well Biden has done, I guess it’s another reason to completely disregard opinion polls. Of course I’d rather Bernie won because I think he actually has some convictions, I’m not sure a Biden presidency would deviate much from the status quo - He’s a fairly likeable, reasonable sounding person, but is he going to actually do anything that will make much of a difference to anybody’s lives?

Speaking of, do you think Trump really rocked the boat all that much? He says some horrible things and is not someone I’d ever want to associate with in a personal capacity, but it doesn’t seem to me like his administration has been as radical as his supporters hoped or his opponents feared. He’s very good at manipulating people with what he says into thinking he’s doing things he actually isn’t, which I don’t think makes him much different from most other politicians. I mean he hasn’t even kept his one major pledge of building a wall and Instead of draining the swamp he just displaced some of it by diving into it along with his family (which really, anyone who knew anything about him should have seen coming) but this doesn’t seem to have affected his supporters’ opinion of him. But again, breaking his pledges and engaging in corruption isn’t really out of the ordinary for politicians. The only real difference between Trump and say, George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan seems to me to be his personality.