General Politics Thread

RadFemHedonist

Completely Average High School Student
I'm dependent on a relatively new diabetes medication, for that and many other reasons I am horrified by the election result tbh. I mean, the weird thing is I don't even believe all tory voters are bad people I get that different people have different perspectives on life but like, how am I supposed to afford even things like my birth control implant replacement at this rate (if I survive long enough to reach the point where it's time for that.) Feels like most people don't care about the disabled and just view us as scroungers, as if a person's value is economic rather than human. Thinking of disabled people who will potentially suffer even more than me like a lot of people with Down's Syndrome and other LD, people who need wheelchairs and don't have them who are housebound. Also sorry to anyone in this thread who is gonna be demonised because of overall right wing views on immigration and the racism. How are homeless people coping in the cold rn? At least Konosuba movie was fun tho and something of a distraction... :(
 

serpantino

Thousand Master
Well it's official, we're now on the same level of voting intelligence as America.
We British are apparently xenophobic capitalists who hate human rights, the poor and the disabled. I'm surprised how anyone on a low income can be brainless enough to support broken and draconian systems like universal credit but apparently they are legion.

Now I just have to hope that some form of human rights group is able to take the scum to court for enacting these policies that are aimed at murdering both individuals and low income families through benefit cuts and other drastic income reductions. They've crafted a system that is so meticulously designed and subersive that it cannot be anything other than intentional.
 

Vincentdante

Thousand Master
The results are pretty obvious to me honestly for one good reason.

uHANuXz.jpg

I personally know a few people with this mentality. Anyway congrats if you voted tories, although it is not my choice I hold no grudge to the results.
 

Y-San

Shinki
As someone who said for the past year or two that trying to overturn the referendum was a mistake, tonight I am vindicated.

I sympathise with ex-Labour voters in the north though. Why shouldn't you get the thing you vote for? In any other circumstance, when you vote and happen to be on the "winning side", the result you backed is implemented, except in the case of Brexit, which has been undermined by the losers since day one in the hopes of a re-run.

Though, their hubris knows no bounds, given that they had the option, in October of calling a General Election (in which it was obvious Boris would have the upper hand, especially given the electoral geography at work, 2/3rds of seats voted leave and the prevailing narrative was that Boris had just "successfully gotten a (good) deal"), or installing Corbyn as as PM and passing a referendum bill. Tonight the queen architect of that miscalculation lost her seat.

As an active Labour activist, I have infinitely more resentment for Remainers who have tried for the past two years to rerun the referendum. The inevitable consequences of that were glaringly obvious then and now, here we are.

Never mind that Starmer and his acolytes refused to actually negotiate an alternative with the Government in April (wasting time with petty games, in which they rebuffed their own demands as "ludicrous") and then refused to pass Boris's WAB, even though that version intentionally displaced many of the crucial elements of the nature of our departure to the Political Declaration, so it might gain cross party support.

The elephant trap was avoidable, even if a GE wasn't, but those with an ideological puritan few walked straight into it.
 

kuuderes_shadow

Thousand Master
The truly sad thing about all this is that the Tories have essentially won a majority after a campaign that was a mixture of outright lies, avoiding scrutiny and soundbites that lots of people like the sound of in theory but which are damaging or even outright impossible in practice. It has shown that putting a charismatic but barefaced liar who will flip positions on any policy whenever he feels like it can be a winning electoral strategy. If other future leaders (of any party) choose to take that as a lesson on how to win, this will go down in history as a very dark day indeed for British democracy.

Unfortunately, this isn't the first time that it has happened either. It's not coincidence that the Conservative campaign was largely run by the same people as the official leave campaign in 2016.
 

Denny Fisher

Stand User
Brexit has obviously been the reason there has been a massive swing to the conservatives.
I suppose most labour voters want out of the EU and saw Boris Johnson would deliver.
Remainers who have an issue with this then they should of voted.
Personally I really like Jeremy Corbyn's policies, it was just not meant to be.
 

kuuderes_shadow

Thousand Master
I think a lot of people here (this site seems to have a disproportionate number of Corbynites) seriously underestimate just how toxic Corbyn and some (far from all but definitely some, including some significant ones) of his policies are among a wide section of the British public. This not only drove away some people who would otherwise have voted Labour, but (perhaps more significantly and definitely in much greater number) pushed others who dislike the state of the current Conservative party to stick behind the Conservatives out of fear of a Corbyn-led government rather than switch to other parties. This was undoubtedly a major reason why the Tories held on in many remain voting seats where they had been predicted to lose. These were seats with high turnout (almost invariably over 75% against a national average of 67ish%) and, unlike most leave voting seats, generally saw turnout go up, so it wasn't people staying at home causing the Tories to hold on.
 

Captaaainuniverse

Time-Traveller
I’ve seen a few vids that look at corbyn’ s policies and I’ve already said it, many of them are socialist in nature and I don’t think the current economy would weather them, you’ll just get all the business that hires people moving away, leaving yet more people dependant on a tax rate that’s never payed into. It is ultimately the average joe that suffers when high earners get taxed, they’ll just make those under them pay the difference. You can talk about monopolies all you’d like to (though I didn’t respond to this earlier) but at the end you’ll only pay for their services when you need them, with corbyn’ s idea, the socialist idea such as free internet etc it’ll be controlled and payed for by the government, using tax, everyone will pay for that whether they are using services or not, and, when they enevitably start failing the government charges more tax to throw money at something that just didn’t perform as it should, no amount of money makes up for incompetence

I think where labour lost here was defiantly thanks to corbyn’ s policies or lack of the right policies, Boris has shouted brexit till he’s blue in the face, makes me wonder why the single issue brexit party even exists, corbyn, however, even if someone liked his policies, even if anyone thought burying the NHS in all the money it wants was a good idea, he didn’t say anything about brexit. He didn’t say anything for it, he didn’t say anything against it, he did say he’d make some sort of deal when May was PM, during this however, I don’t think any of the seats he’d need saw a stance on something that will change the way parliament runs this nation. Even if he said straight he’d remain then he would have done better
 
I dunno. I would have voted for those policies if Corbyn wasn't leader. Taken a chance on hope, fanciful though it was. But Corbyn's flavour of leadership was sickening, divisive and exclusive. When you tell anyone who doesn't agree with you to bugger off to the Lib Dems, you're the problem. He was and is running the Labour party like a militant union from the seventies, one that has forgotten that it's there to represent workers, and is in it for the power alone.
 

Mr L

Great Teacher
For everyone who made the economic arguments for Brexit, I hope they end up right, for the dake of making all this hassle and all the transitional difficulties actually worth it.

One thing's for sure, we're about to lose free movrmeny around the continent with only the Republic of Ireland left (nothing against Ireland!)
 

ayase

State Alchemist
I don't even believe all tory voters are bad people I get that different people have different perspectives on life
I'm surprised how anyone on a low income can be brainless enough to support broken and draconian systems like universal credit but apparently they are legion.
I don't think they're bad people, but I have to believe some of them are ignorant, stupid or both. I mean, up here in the North East, Redcar went to the Tories. REDCAR. This is a town which, under the Tory government, saw it's largest employer close with the loss of 3000 jobs. This is a town where 24.2% of children are classified as living in child poverty and local services have been slashed due to the Tories' attitudes of making local councils find more of their own money (guess how - by putting up council tax). What on Earth could possibly possess these people to vote Tory? I feel for the people in poor areas who didn't vote Tory and are today waking up to a Tory representing them, but I don't particularly feel for the people who did. It's like the difference between being mugged and walking up to the richest person you can find and handing them your wallet.
I think a lot of people here (this site seems to have a disproportionate number of Corbynites) seriously underestimate just how toxic Corbyn and some (far from all but definitely some, including some significant ones) of his policies are among a wide section of the British public. This not only drove away some people who would otherwise have voted Labour, but (perhaps more significantly and definitely in much greater number) pushed others who dislike the state of the current Conservative party to stick behind the Conservatives out of fear of a Corbyn-led government rather than switch to other parties.
But outside of the media and propaganda lies, can anyone actually explain what it was that made them feel this way about Corbyn and his policies? Because if it is only the media and propaganda, how exactly is Corbyn to blame for that? If a dozen people falsely accuse someone of something it's not their fault that other people presume they're guilty, it's the fault of those people for blindly believing what they're told without actually bothering to look into whether it's true or not. Which perhaps points to the fact it's time to re-examine universal suffrage.
I sympathise with ex-Labour voters in the north though. Why shouldn't you get the thing you vote for? In any other circumstance, when you vote and happen to be on the "winning side", the result you backed is implemented, except in the case of Brexit, which has been undermined by the losers since day one in the hopes of a re-run.
History is littered with broken manifesto promises, they're just better at fudging and lying about those. It would probably be harder to try and pretend Brexit has already happened. I do for the most part agree with your assessment here though - Labour was riven much harder than the Tories on Brexit, they were criticised for fence sitting but how could they not when their more cosmopolitan voters mostly backed remain and their provincial supporters leaned much more heavily leave? Corbyn tried to hold these groups together due to a belief in shared aims other than Brexit (which was very much my belief too) but the press and the PLP, of course, happily obliged in splitting these groups even further.

I really don't think we should forget David Cameron's role in all this - He agreed to a referendum he didn't want or believe in to attract UKIP voters to the Tories, fought it terribly and lost, gave up and ran instead of trying to sort it out and this is what has led to this point - Scotland wanting to leave the UK, the transformation of the Tories he'd been trying to give a more moderate image into UKIP-lite and a platform for Boris in the shape of the leave campaign - A man with no beliefs or principles other than his own power and aggrandisement. Let's not forget he only decided to support the leave campaign because he thought it would make him more popular than supporting remain - He didn't actually believe in either and probably still doesn't, just saying whatever he thinks will be popular. I genuinely don't think Boris believes in anything.
It has shown that putting a charismatic but barefaced liar who will flip positions on any policy whenever he feels like it can be a winning electoral strategy. If other future leaders (of any party) choose to take that as a lesson on how to win, this will go down in history as a very dark day indeed for British democracy.
I feel like that's already been a winning electoral strategy for some time. Certainly it has in the US, I can't think of a single President since Jimmy Carter who doesn't fit that mould. Also Blair and Cameron, obviously.
I dunno. I would have voted for those policies if Corbyn wasn't leader. Taken a chance on hope, fanciful though it was. But Corbyn's flavour of leadership was sickening, divisive and exclusive. When you tell anyone who doesn't agree with you to bugger off to the Lib Dems, you're the problem. He was and is running the Labour party like a militant union from the seventies, one that has forgotten that it's there to represent workers, and is in it for the power alone.
There are people who need to be told to bugger off, especially when they're trying to undermine you at every turn (though if I'm not mistaken most of them buggered off of their own accord and used the opportunity for media exposure). This election has certainly shown via the Brexit example outlined above that you can't please everybody, so I don't think there's a whole lot of point in trying. I really do despise all this manipulative, weaselly political language which is preferred because at least it's "respectful". It's time for blunt honesty in politics. It's time to stop apologising and explaining and rationalising. It's time politicians celebrated receiving death threats as a sign they're having an impact.
 
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This is the point where you either blame people for not voting for you, or find out what went wrong and deal with the problems? One of these paths will lead to an eventual election victory. Labour vote went down by 10% in some areas. That’s well over a million people that cannot be dismissed, or “told to bugger off” without there being consequences.
 

ayase

State Alchemist
This is the point where you either blame people for not voting for you, or find out what went wrong and deal with the problems
Can I do a bit of both? I think voter ignorance and a hostile media played a massive part, I think it would be difficult to deny that. So what went wrong, really, is that those voters are seemingly easily manipulated by powerful people whose interests are not theirs. It was exactly the same story when these people were voting for Thatcher. They shouldn’t bugger off, but they should become better informed and wary of who is trying to manipulate them and why, I don’t really know how you achieve that.

I don't particularly trust people to do what's in their best interests and that's fine when their decisions only affect them, but when the decisions they make affect everybody I start to question the wisdom of democracy as a concept. Hopefully I'll live to see humanity create a more intelligent, unstoppable AI which can rule over us from a genuine position of superiority like a god made real.
 
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Can I do a bot of both? I think voter ignorance and a hostile media played a massive part, I think it would be difficult to deny that. So what went wrong, really, is that those voters are seemingly easily manipulated by powerful people whose interests are not theirs. It was exactly the same story when these people were voting for Thatcher. They shouldn’t bugger off, but they should become better informed and wary of who is trying to manipulate them and why, I don’t really know how you achieve that.
You do it the way Blair did it, by selling a shinier product to the electorate than the opponents. I hated much of what Blair stood for, but against the dull, monotone Major, and the then scandal hit Tory party, he was like a breath of fresh air.

The Tories left an open goal after ten years of misrule. Universal Credit, the NHS, Austerity, any other Labour Party could have strolled in without even campaigning. But look at the messenger from the point of view of the non believer. Corbyn couldn’t sell water to a man dying of thirst.
 

thedoctor2016

Symphogear
Boris is worse. They were both **** yes but Boris was worse he is a racist and now has a majority of 80. Yes Jeremy was also racist. But I’m lost today because I have no clue where the Labour Party will go next I can’t see any leader none of the MPs are popular anymore and it’s gonna be pro Brexit and getting rid of Corbyn so yay.
 

ayase

State Alchemist
You do it the way Blair did it, by selling a shinier product to the electorate than the opponents. I hated much of what Blair stood for, but against the dull, monotone Major, and the then scandal hit Tory party, he was like a breath of fresh air.
I feel like it's worth bearing in mind Blair, Mandelson, Campbell and Co. got a lot of the media on side, including Murdoch. How did they do that? By being Tories-lite in terms of policy. If Blair had run on Corbyn's platform you can bet he'd have got it just as bad in the press as Corbyn has, or Kinnock did, and John Major would have been made out to be the saviour of Western Civilisation.

If basically, what we're saying is there's no way to get elected without standing on a neolib/neocon platform the press will support, what's even the point of politics, or democracy? We might as well just go back to being ruled by an aristocracy, because given the wealth and power of the media and the corporate and financial interests they intersect with it's pretty much the same thing.
 
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Vincentdante

Thousand Master
I regret posting earlier because this thread has become toxic and I keep getting notifications :(

Yeah I didn't want that clown Boris either (didn't want Corbyn for that matter either) but guys chill, the world hasn't ended.
 

ayase

State Alchemist
I'm not convinced just how much sway the old ptrss have anymore honestly.
I think social media works more to spread the opinions the media expresses via word of mouth. If someone you know personally and like expresses an opinion about something you know little about, many people are inclined to believe them. If they in turn got that opinion from the biased media...
I regret posting earlier because this thread has become toxic and I keep getting notifications :(

Yeah I didn't want that clown Boris either (didn't want Corbyn for that matter either) but guys chill, the world hasn't ended.
Wut? This is great, people are actually talking about politics in the politics thread again. If this is toxic, what does a non-toxic political discussion look like? Feel free to take me to task over anything I’ve said that you disagree with.
 
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