General Politics Thread

[ayase]

Wew, all the controversial topics today, eh?

It's fine to point out that illegal immigrants are exploited by unscrupulous employers, I don't think many on the left disagree with that. But the answer to that isn't mass deportations or stupid stuff like building a wall or whatever. It's offering more legal routes of immigration and giving people living illegally a pathway to legal citizenship (and I believe polling seems to show most Americans actually support this!). Or at least that has to be a big part of the solution. And the Democrats failed to do this. If you want to stop the exploitation of illegal workers then that has to be part of it.

Certainly true, but the left both here and in the US seems incapable of even vocalising simple, practical truths like "Illegal immigration is actually pretty bad because if people are scared of being deported, they won't ever go to the authorities about any exploitation or crime they're the victim of, which in turn makes them prime targets to be exploited by criminals and potentially end up engaging in criminal activity themselves" or "It is costing stupid amounts of money to house asylum seekers in hotels for the same reason your rent is so high; because previous governments didn't build any social housing for the last 40 years" though probably neither Labour or Tories are likely to point that last one out considering they're both to blame for that. All a lot of people on the left seem to have to offer right now is rosy platitudes like "no-one is illegal" and "refugees welcome" with nothing but a shrug to offer when confronted with the impossible logistics and economics (not to mention the extra bureaucracy) of allowing anyone and everyone who wants to come into the country to do so legally.

I don't have anything against people of different cultures or people fleeing horrendous situations in their country of origin. I've known nice, decent people who came to this country as refugees. And I do find myself thinking thoughts like "These guys would probably be dead in a ditch in Iraq or Eritrea if Priti Patel had her way" as such I can't believe it was wrong to help them. But I do think concerns about the costs to the country from soaring immigration, both monetary and societal, do have some validity and need to be addressed fairly, honestly and realistically and discounting both the mad xenophobic rantings of the right and the unrealistic bleeding hearts of the left. I think on the most basic level, it has to be true that any population increase also increases competition for resources. It's also true that our resources as a nation are finite.

On the one hand, I feel like letting refugees work legally from day one would probably go a long way to removing a lot of the resentment aimed at them for their perceived "sponging" among a certain section of the native population. But when you consider that they are indeed being dumped by the government in already struggling and deprived areas (something else I have first hand experience of) it may in fact not decrease that resentment, since then you are increasing competition for jobs in areas that already have high levels of poverty and unemployment. It's an incredibly difficult problem to solve without say, creating massive numbers of new jobs, new homes and wealth (preferably in those deprived areas, or at least outside of London). Which would be nice to see of course, but to make that happen you need growing demand for products and services. Due to the cost of living crisis that demand simply isn't there, since everybody's skint.

 

[Vashdaman]

@BrokenPhoenix I think the Australian approach is heinous and not one we should aspire to one bit, locking up children in detention centres for heavens sake. The reading around those detention centres is really, really grim. Riots, suicides, self-immolation, women and children being sexually abused by the guards. This is just from quick Wikipedia skim! I know we see Nigel Farage big up the Australian approach a lot of course, which figures because he's a tool, but I don't see anyone even remotely interested in human rights praise the Australian treatment of illegal immigrants.

For me that's the problem, sure if you're comfortable with it you can do really horrible inhumane things, you can stick people in squalid and unsafe offshore detention centres like the Australians do, or you could allow them to live in hellish camps and have police deliberately abuse them in order to deter them from seeking asylum (as the UK had the French do for us in the Calais Jungle), you could do any number of horrible, inhumane things to people. And maybe possibly it might work for a while, but is that really the kind of country you want us to be? Are you really willing to give up your humanity and treat human beings like animals? I'm not saying we have to open our borders and have no restrictions (and that isn't what I've been arguing for), but what the Australians are doing is not humane and it's not fair.

"I am aware of the possibilities of huge migration because of climate change and other natural disasters that may occur. I am worried about it and I genuinely hope that I am dead before it comes really bad"

It doesn't sound to me like you've really given it much thought then if you're just hoping you'll die before it happens. If I'm not mistaken you're younger than I am by a fair few years, so I'm sorry to say that it very likely will be within your lifetime, and mine too. So don't you see that we need to stop sticking our heads in the sands and start thinking about this differently, not just hoping we'll die before it kicks in, not just hoping we can lock the country's doors and ignore the people outside our borders. We can either resent and fear and criminalise these people, leave them no chance to have a decent life and contribute to society, blame them for our economic woes (when they aren't the cause) or we can actually not do that and offer people the chance at a decent life. Again I'm not saying "open borders" but we really need to start thinking about this differently or else people like @Dave1988 who already clearly has very wrong ideas about immigrants and Turkish barbers too are just going to get angrier and angrier and society is going to fall apart. Seriously!

@ayase That's fair enough really, and I completely agree that we do urgently need the creation of new homes, jobs, wealth, better public services, and a general complete restructuring of our economy to go along with whatever immigration policy we might decide on. I'm certainly not in disagreement there. And yes it's a tall order. But again, I'm coming at this from the point of view that in the years to come, whether we like it or not, there's going to be mass migration unless we're willing to literally let them die, and I don't think we should let them die. That sounds hyperbolic, but that's really what I think is coming down the pipline.

 

[ayase]

@ayase That's fair enough really, and I completely agree that we do urgently need the creation of new homes, jobs, wealth, better public services, and a general complete restructuring of our economy to go along with whatever immigration policy we might decide on. I'm certainly not in disagreement there. And yes it's a tall order. But again, I'm coming at this from the point of view that in the years to come, whether we like it or not, there's going to be mass migration unless we're willing to literally let them die, and I don't think we should let them die. That sounds hyperbolic, but that's really what I think is coming down the pipline.

Generally, I don't particularly want people to die either (except specific people I think have done more harm than good to society) but to me the sanest answer to migration, now or in the future, is one that is sensible about resource distribution. We don't really want huge amounts of the Earth's population living on a tiny amount of its land area, do we? That's just asking to create behavioural sinks (not even an exaggeration, there is a direct correlation between increased population density and falling birth rates, just ask Japan) and seems neither sensible nor practical (or preferable, I don't think) when there are huge sparsely populated areas that we could be populating instead. Canada, for example, is 40 times the size of the UK but has less than half its population. It would seem sensible to me to even send like half, maybe 2/3 of our current population to Canada to build new infrastructure and start cultivating land and resources there to take the pressure off jobs and housing here. I'll go. Canada, Alaska, the Western US, Siberia, Mongolia, South West Africa, Brazil... These are places with room for growth where everybody could have space and resources aplenty and where it would be sensible for anyone to migrate to. Even rural mainland Europe still has quite a bit of room and is depopulating as people move to cities, I feel like long term with that possible climate f*ckery coming, land to grow food is going to be something worth having. It's probably that or we start getting used to the idea of living at Kowloon Walled City density (for most of your monthly income in rent) and I think one of those options is more likely to result in humanity's continued survival and happiness than the other. That's my mad idea anyway, while we're dreaming big. Still not quite as mad as the gulf states building mental unsustainable cities in the desert or Elon's plan of sending us all to Mars.

 

[Dave1988]

@BrokenPhoenix I think the Australian approach is heinous and not one we should aspire to one bit, locking up children in detention centres for heavens sake. The reading around those detention centres is really, really grim. Riots, suicides, self-immolation, women and children being sexually abused by the guards. This is just from quick Wikipedia skim! I know we see Nigel Farage big up the Australian approach a lot of course, which figures because he's a tool, but I don't see anyone even remotely interested in human rights praise the Australian treatment of illegal immigrants.

For me that's the problem, sure if you're comfortable with it you can do really horrible inhumane things, you can stick people in squalid and unsafe offshore detention centres like the Australians do, or you could allow them to live in hellish camps and have police deliberately abuse them in order to deter them from seeking asylum (as the UK had the French do for us in the Calais Jungle), you could do any number of horrible, inhumane things to people. And maybe possibly it might work for a while, but is that really the kind of country you want us to be? Are you really willing to give up your humanity and treat human beings like animals? I'm not saying we have to open our borders and have no restrictions (and that isn't what I've been arguing for), but what the Australians are doing is not humane and it's not fair.

"I am aware of the possibilities of huge migration because of climate change and other natural disasters that may occur. I am worried about it and I genuinely hope that I am dead before it comes really bad"

It doesn't sound to me like you've really given it much thought then if you're just hoping you'll die before it happens. If I'm not mistaken you're younger than I am by a fair few years, so I'm sorry to say that it very likely will be within your lifetime, and mine too. So don't you see that we need to stop sticking our heads in the sands and start thinking about this differently, not just hoping we'll die before it kicks in, not just hoping we can lock the country's doors and ignore the people outside our borders. We can either resent and fear and criminalise these people, leave them no chance to have a decent life and contribute to society, blame them for our economic woes (when they aren't the cause) or we can actually not do that and offer people the chance at a decent life. Again I'm not saying "open borders" but we really need to start thinking about this differently or else people like @Dave1988 who already clearly has very wrong ideas about immigrants and Turkish barbers too are just going to get angrier and angrier and society is going to fall apart. Seriously!

@ayase That's fair enough really, and I completely agree that we do urgently need the creation of new homes, jobs, wealth, better public services, and a general complete restructuring of our economy to go along with whatever immigration policy we might decide on. I'm certainly not in disagreement there. And yes it's a tall order. But again, I'm coming at this from the point of view that in the years to come, whether we like it or not, there's going to be mass migration unless we're willing to literally let them die, and I don't think we should let them die. That sounds hyperbolic, but that's really what I think is coming down the pipline.

No, we need immigrants/migrants in certain fields, nhs as such, i agree.
We dont need 100's of barbers and europeon off licences do we?
Its ok pointong the finger saying people like me, who doesnt want anyone here, but go back to my question, read through and answer those points i make, but then again, no one dares, as they dont have the answers, easier to point the finger as say "oh no he hates immigrants, just like politicians!" as everyone avoids the key questions

 

[Vashdaman]

I was saying people like you Dave, because when you say things like "I have within a 1 mile radius, 8 turkish barbers and probably 10 mini europeon markets, then in few weeks they get raided and drugs found" you are spouting a proper crock of old hateful nonsense. I'll be frank, I think it's racist nonsense and I don't have an issue telling you that. Turkish barbers and European shop owners are no more likely to be drug dealers than anyone else is, and plenty of born and raised Brits get raided for drugs every single day of the week if you haven't noticed. What have those Turkish barbers and European shop owners done to you? Why are they less deserving to be here than your wife, who if I remember correctly is also from another country? Those shop owners are just trying to get on with their lives and contribute to their communities.

As for your other questions "no one dares answer", I'm actually in complete agreement with you when you say that for years the government hasn't settled new arrivals in sensible thoughtful locations. There's no doubt that under Blair asylum seekers were purposefully dispersed to economically deprived areas in order to create social tension in those communities (there's a decent overview of the policies during and after the Blair years I've just found here: UK asylum policy: How did we get here? - Refugee Law Initiative Blog). But asylum seekers aren't to blame for consecutive governments cynically trying to weaponize them against the electorate.

As for your other question, I can't say I know with certainty why people fleeing their home countries don't want to settle in their immediately neighbouring countries, it will vary from case to case but it's not really hard to imagine why is it. Maybe those neighbouring countries don't want them, maybe they're in crisis too, maybe they have friends or family in the UK, maybe the imagined prospect of life in the UK seemed more appealing and they sadly and mistakenly thought we were nation of caring and kind people.

 

[Dave1988]

I was saying people like you Dave, because when you say things like "I have within a 1 mile radius, 8 turkish barbers and probably 10 mini europeon markets, then in few weeks they get raided and drugs found" you are spouting a proper crock of old hateful nonsense. I'll be frank, I think it's racist nonsense and I don't have an issue telling you that. Turkish barbers and European shop owners are no more likely to be drug dealers than anyone else is, and plenty of born and raised Brits get raided for drugs every single day of the week if you haven't noticed. What have those Turkish barbers and European shop owners done to you? Why are they less deserving to be here than your wife, who if I remember correctly is also from another country? Those shop owners are just trying to get on with their lives and contribute to their communities.

As for your other questions "no one dares answer", I'm actually in complete agreement with you when you say that for years the government hasn't settled new arrivals in sensible thoughtful locations. There's no doubt that under Blair asylum seekers were purposefully dispersed to economically deprived areas in order to create social tension in those communities (there's a decent overview of the policies during and after the Blair years I've just found here: UK asylum policy: How did we get here? - Refugee Law Initiative Blog). But asylum seekers aren't to blame for consecutive governments cynically trying to weaponize them against the electorate.

As for your other question, I can't say I know with certainty why people fleeing their home countries don't want to settle in their immediately neighbouring countries, but it's not really hard to imagine why is it. Maybe those neighbouring countries don't want them, maybe they're in crisis too, maybe they have friends or family in the UK, maybe the imagined prospect of life in the UK seemed more appealing and they sadly and mistakenly thought we were nation of caring and kind people.

Always nice to see the "race card" played as normal as i said, easier to just play that i guess, but you go on ahead, you think that, then thats upto you, no race involved, its the facts
Be intested to know where you are i. The country? A deprived area? If not you shouldnt have a say as it doesnt affect you, so again you wouldnt care, one of those its, ahh well not my part of the country. Basically selfish
Calling people racist for literal facts is just plain stupidity

 

[Rui]

I also live in an area with a lot of immigrant-run businesses. And if there wasn't demand for all of those barbers - which there is, because they're thriving and always packed with people legitimately getting shaves/haircuts - then they wouldn't be able to keep the lights on. I'd take a hundred of booming local shops in which people are actually invested over another mobile phone chain store or knock-off handbag shop run by someone who passes as local.

It is obviously racist to declare that Europeans and Turks are more likely to be drug dealers who ruin the community, and obviously racist to assume that they aren't British citizens in their own right. Just as it's racist to assume that someone called Fred Smith, who runs a vape store on the high street but has a pale complexion, has the right to be there and is a valid local independent retailer because he passes as white British at first glance. The people running these import shops are legal immigrants with their own businesses and food safety inspections and tax returns and contributions to the local community/economy, but this example illustrates how frenzied rage against the illegal immigrants quickly translates into hatred directed towards legal immigrants actively working and contributing to society. We saw it with the last batch of riots, and how local import shops run by Brits who have paid their dues and jumped through all of the hoops suddenly became targets to those looking for people to blame. The goalposts are always moving.

You can go into those immigrant-run shops, too. The European grocery shops and Middle Eastern cafes have brilliant stuff that they're more than happy to share with people who have never visited those regions; I do a lot of my shopping at local Polish, Indian, Thai and Turkish stores and it's a great privilege to be living in an era where I can walk down the high street and try such a variety of things without needing to jump on a plane or wait for a parcel. And often at a fraction of the price they'd be in the local supermarket.

It doesn't have to be 'them' and 'us' unless you want it to be that way.

R

 

[Just Passing Through]

If we're talking personal experiences...

In 2014, I had reason to call on the services of the NHS for a protracted period of time, from GP all the way to hospital, a process that lasted more than three years. Back then, the NHS still worked, waiting lists were short, and I was treated by a host of European doctors, consultants, nurses and the like. It was a seamless process, if I needed an appointment for a scan or test or something, I got it within eight weeks.

Then the populists got their Brexit, and all those wonderful NHS staff started going back to their European countries of origin, or moving to more lucrative health care services as in Australia,

The past two years, my dad has needed to go to hospital for emergency care, once for three nights, once for a week. Not once did he get a proper bed in a ward, and I had to stay overnight with him in A&E to make sure he was getting the care he needed. The hospital staff are still immigrants, just from further afield, and there are nowhere near enough of them.

 

[BrokenPhoenix]

@BrokenPhoenix I think the Australian approach is heinous and not one we should aspire to one bit, locking up children in detention centres for heavens sake. The reading around those detention centres is really, really grim. Riots, suicides, self-immolation, women and children being sexually abused by the guards. This is just from quick Wikipedia skim! I know we see Nigel Farage big up the Australian approach a lot of course, which figures because he's a tool, but I don't see anyone even remotely interested in human rights praise the Australian treatment of illegal immigrants.

I'm not saying the Australian approach is perfect. However, there are policies that we can take from them to stop and dissuade people from trying to cross the English channel; we don't have to copy what other countries do down to a T. We have had far too many people trying to cross the channel and unfortunately dying on the journey due to the dangerous waters. Something must be done to dissuade people from crossing, otherwise we will never clear the backlog of asylum applicants waiting for a decision on their case. We need offshore processing centres and for anyone that arrives via boat crossing to be sent to these offshore processing centres or returned to France. Once people realise they cannot claim asylum by dangerously crossing the channel, it will reduce the number of people risking their lives to cross the English channel.

No, I don't want us to be a country that treats others inhumanely. I want us to be a country that has effective and efficient immigration/asylum systems in place so that genuine asylum seekers can get the help that they need as quickly as possible; and so that economic migrants who can enrich our society and economy can come in. The current system is being abused in broad daylight.

you could do any number of horrible, inhumane things to people. And maybe possibly it might work for a while, but is that really the kind of country you want us to be? Are you really willing to give up your humanity and treat human beings like animals? I'm not saying we have to open our borders and have no restrictions (and that isn't what I've been arguing for), but what the Australians are doing is not humane and it's not fair.

As I said, just because the Australians treated asylum applicants poorly, doesn't mean that Britain has to. The boat crossings can't continue as they are; even Starmer has pledged to "smash the gangs"; people are dying crossing the English channel and criminal smugglers are exploiting people, whilst making a tonne of money.

It doesn't sound to me like you've really given it much thought then if you're just hoping you'll die before it happens. If I'm not mistaken you're younger than I am by a fair few years, so I'm sorry to say that it very likely will be within your lifetime, and mine too. So don't you see that we need to stop sticking our heads in the sands and start thinking about this differently, not just hoping we'll die before it kicks in, not just hoping we can lock the country's doors and ignore the people outside our borders. We can either resent and fear and criminalise these people, leave them no chance to have a decent life and contribute to society, blame them for our economic woes (when they aren't the cause) or we can actually not do that and offer people the chance at a decent life. Again I'm not saying "open borders" but we really need to start thinking about this differently or else people like @Dave1988 who already clearly has very wrong ideas about immigrants and Turkish barbers too are just going to get angrier and angrier and society is going to fall apart. Seriously!

I am hoping I'll die before it happens because if there are suddenly millions of people knocking on Britain's door because of mass-migration due to climate change or other natural disasters, then it's game over. Britain's infrastructure and public services would not be able to handle such an influx of people, we're barely holding on as it is now. Hence, I'm hoping I'm dead before the fight for resources occurs. The rich will be fine, but it will be the plebs like me and you that will be most affected.

There's no doubt that under Blair asylum seekers were purposefully dispersed to economically deprived areas in order to create social tension in those communities

Asylum seekers are generally housed in these poorer areas (i.e., the north of England and the midlands) because it is cheaper for the government to do so. It's far, far cheaper for the government to house asylum applicants in Rotherham, than it is to house them in say, Godalming. This is why you see such a disparity in where asylum applicants are dispersed across the country. I agree with you, that asylum seekers definitely aren't to blame for this; the Tory government should be held to account for poor planning and for butchering our asylum system in the first place.

And another thing: the hotel and accommodation owners that are selling their properties to the government to be able to use, are making millions and millions of pounds from it all. These hotel owners have a vested interest in there being a backlog and for asylum applicants to continue to flow in (£££). The whole system stinks.

Just to be clear though, I have no issue with asylum seekers or legal immigrants. If you're fleeing war or persecution, then come on in, we'll happily look after you and provide you refugee. If you're an economic migrant posing as an asylum seeker, then I'm sorry, but back you go to where you came from (they can join the queue to get a work visa if they have skills we need). If you're a business owner, doctor, nurse, IT professional, engineer, or have any other skills we may need, then we welcome you to apply through the legal routes. An immigration system should be dynamic and respond to the needs of our economy.

At the moment, Britain is a low-wage, low-productive economy. Our wages are low and our economic productivity is low. People's wages haven't moved for decades; this is why people can't afford their rent or a mortgage. You're not going to get economic growth with a poorly designed immigration policy that prioritises low-skilled and low-educated individuals. And as I said in a previous comment, a government's number one priority should be its citizens: the government needs to provide economic growth for the people so that their wages go up, as well as their quality of life. Of course, we need people to work in our healthcare system, but we also need highly-skilled people that are going to produce economic benefit and wealth for us (i.e., business owners, engineers, IT workers, and so on). Look over in the US, they have silicon valley, and companies like NVIDIA, Intel, Apple, that all produce jobs and economic wealth for the country. The issue with the UK is we don't produce and make stuff as much as we used to, we're primarily a service economy with insultingly low wages. If you're a doctor or nurse, or work in computing, you can move to the US and double or even more than triple your wage.

The problem with the immigration discussion in the UK is that it always becomes too emotive when it is raised. If you're not automatically for open-borders then you're branded a racist or a right-winger. If you're not for high-levels of mass, low-skilled immigration then suddenly you're against the small business owner from India. All nuance has been lost from our political discourse on this topic, which is why we haven't made any progress as a country on these issues for decades.

 

[ayase]

It doesn't have to be 'them' and 'us' unless you want it to be that way.

I agree with that in principle but I think in practical terms it can be easier said than done. When looking at the "whys" of anti-immigrant sentiment it can be easy to see it as simply racism and xenophobia and no doubt some of it is, I think the level of actual racism in this country can be fairly accurately discerned by looking at the vote share of the openly racist BNP prior to their implosion, which at its absolute highest reached 1.9%. Reform by comparison managed 14.3% in the recent general election and while they're certainly socially conservative and anti-immigration, I don't think a party whose chairman is a Muslim child of Sri Lankan immigrants can really be accused of being racist in the same way the BNP (with its roots in the white supremacist National Front) very obviously was. So what are the values of those voters who wouldn't vote for racists like the BNP but will vote Reform? I think the answer to that is people who feel a sense of loss of their community, identity and culture and blame successive governments' policies on multiculturalism and immigration for that without actually holding any hate for or wishing any harm on people of other cultures.

So where is this sense of identity they feel they've lost? Well, many years ago these people and their families used to go to church, but now hardly any of them believe in god any more to the point where the churches close down and get turned into flats and restaurants. Then they frequented community centres, until the government stopped funding those and they also closed down. Then they went to the local pub, until those started closing down and getting turned into flats as well because they became economically unviable (if not bulldozed entirely and having a dozen faceless shoebox sized "houses" erected on the site, sold for prices no-one who drank in there could ever afford). What's left, Wetherspoons? As the supermarket of pubs any sense of community is largely absent there, white British people also aren't likely to meet and perhaps get to know and shed some of their predjudices about Muslims in a Wetherspoons. Coffee shops? I visit those plenty and what I see is white people sat around one table speaking English, Arabs sat around another table speaking Arabic, Albanians around another table speaking Albanian etc. and never the twain shall meet. Despite their physical distance only being a few feet, the gap between them feels like a yawning cultural chasm. One shovel to stoke division.

Then there's the matter of religion itself. How is religion doing? In my area the Anglican churches, as mentioned above, have either closed due to lack of attendance or are now largely attended by African immigrants and their children (or in the case of the Methodists, Chinese) each with a rapidly declining handful of elderly white people. The mosque and synogogue are thriving centres of their communities. The nearest Catholic church is an SSPX church with padlocks on the gates which I never see anyone go in or out of and I'm almost tempted to try and visit due to its sinister nature. What do you notice? A distinct lack of white British people below the age of about 70 attending any of them because they don't hold those beliefs any more. It feels like a harsh bordering on patronizing thing to say, but I think the fact that I feel this way is probably worth expressing in the context of this discussion: I will always to a certain extent look down on religious people. I can't help it. I find it hard to view them as equals just as I find it hard to view someone who subscribes to flat Earth theory as an equal, because I think their strongly held beliefs are a load of obvious nonsense. I can like them personally, just as I can like a child who still believes in Father Chrismas, but in the back of my mind I will always have the lingering thought that at best, they're kind of gullible and at worst, they're a-okay with the oppression of women and/or mutilatating the genitals of infants just because some guy several centuries ago said that's what God wanted. I suspect I am probably not the only non-believer who feels this way and I think it's unlikely most of those who have lost their religion are going to find it again. Two shovels to stoke division.

What of general sociability? I have a friend who these days finds himself being expected to play the role of basic English tutor in addition to his minimum wage manual labour job because the company he works for keeps hiring people who can barely speak English, if at all. He's a reasonable person and certainly doesn't feel any malice towards his immigrant colleagues because when he can actually get across to them what they're supposed to be doing, often with the use of Google translate, he finds they do a good job. He is however still a bit pissed off at his employer for choosing to keep hiring people he can barely communicate with, making his job harder and less sociable because it's not even possible to make small talk (which they can still engage in amongst themselves, in their own langauges). A lot of people would not even be that accommodating and would blame those workers personally for not bothering to learn even very basic English while living and working in the UK. Three shovels to stoke division.

I think that's where a lot of this anti-immigrant sentiment is coming from: Not from surface level bigotry like skin color or country of origin, but from a sense that people of other cultures are not interested in being part of their community and they also aren't interested in being part of theirs because there isn't a sense of shared culture, values or in some cases even langauge between them. There's never any justification for racism or bigotry, but I do find frustrations over these things somewhat understandable. I don't personally feel a huge sense of loss, but then I'm not a particularly sociable person who feels like they need a sense of community anyway. I think a lot of people however are, and they do feel that sense of loss. What fills the void or closes the distance between seperate communities to make them feel a sense of togetherness? I genuinely have no idea.

 

[Vashdaman]

I think that's where a lot of this anti-immigrant sentiment is coming from: Not from surface level bigotry like skin color or country of origin, but from a sense that people of other cultures are not interested in being part of their community and they also aren't interested in being part of theirs because there isn't a sense of shared culture, values or in some cases even langauge between them. There's never any justification for racism or bigotry, but I do find frustrations over these things somewhat understandable. I don't personally feel a huge sense of loss, but then I'm not a particularly sociable person who feels like they need a sense of community anyway. I think a lot of people however are, and they do feel that sense of loss. What fills the void or closes the distance between seperate communities to make them feel a sense of togetherness? I genuinely have no idea.

I agree with this, I don't think people are naturally inclined to be hateful and bigoted or racist, well maybe a minority but not most. And for the most part I don't think it is racism that's responsible for the Reform vote. It's late stage capitalism that's to blame for this anti-immigrant hatred, with snake-oil salesmen like Farage actively fanning the flames. I do think that void and sense of loss you describe are real. Like you I'm a bit of an unsociable-type and I don't really crave IRL community very much, but even I feel that loss sometimes and I miss things like my local old-man pub that used to be down the road which is now long gone and appears to be an entirely lifeless facade. And that loss must be much more painful for the working class old-men who actually used to drink and socialise in it. There's a couple of trendy coffee shops now, but as you pointed out people don't mingle there and I suspect old-men who look like the guys who used to drink at that pub would feel a bit out of place even going in, even I feel unworthy to go in those places most of the time.

And often what communities I do see still managing to thrive are the immigrant communities, as you illustrated in your contrast of the mosque to the church. It's not a case of migrant communities replacing or usurping the native ones as it's often negatively characterised, honestly I think migrants are still just more community oriented, capitalism hasn't eroded those communities to such an extent. There's the religion aspect for better or worse, and maybe it's also the feeling of being a minority that makes people pull closer together. While you might look down on the religion thing ayase, sometimes I wonder if some of the white English who feel lost and who long for what is lost might not feel a little jealous, it would be understandable.

I'm grateful for these communities, in my neck of the woods the biggest ones are the orthodox jews and Iranians, who might seem like a surprising a pair of neighbours, and truthfully I'm not sure there's huge amount of intermingling between them, but there's no problems either and I feel lucky I can get some good Iranian food and a seriously mean loaf of challah so easily. During the anti-racist protests during the riots earlier this year both communities, along with others, did come together in the face of that.

I don't think it's really that difficult to imagine how that distance might be closed, to be honest. I mean I'm certainly not one to talk, as I'm really not a very outgoing or social sort of guy. But that's what it will take, more members from those disparate communities, particularly the working class, reaching out to one another, attending community meetings, creating spaces and and events and activities specifically to be welcoming of the community as a whole. Finding and sharing the things we all have in common and care about, even if we don't have everything in common. They don't have to be political, anything. This might seem a bit like empty platitudes, especially as I don't do this stuff myself, but there are people doing this stuff up and down the country right, and I respect those people a lot. It's easy to sneer at the decline of society, or to feel impotently rageful, or to write paragraphs about preferred immigration policy on an internet forum, and I clearly do all the above! But it's not doing anything at all to help, let's be honest.