I think I recall someone on here a while ago wondering why the "good girl" in love anime usually don't get the guy? Well, I was reading this interesting book today that was basically saying that in 'trendy love dramas' that emerged in the 90s one of the tropes was self sacrificing selflessness being depicted as a personality flaw. 'Traditional women' characters that represented older models of idealised Japanese femininity were ultimately lampooned because they weren't careless capitalist consumers, and the heroine would have to embrace selfish traits and consumerism if she was to get the man in these stories. These dramas were apparently reconciling women to the changing conditions of the society and economy, as well as creating a new market of young consumer "parasite single" women.
I think that might have been me making that point!
Although in this case it's probably worth differentiating between the sort of character I was getting at (the modern 'girl next door' / childhood friend type - usually quite tomboyish / outgoing / genki etc.) and the more 'traditional Japanese woman' / yamato nadeshiko / more reserved - as usually they exist as two quite different tropes, especially in harem anime.
Interesting, both posts. I've never actually watched grease. Maybe America went through that period capitalist economic change earlier than Japan. If anyone is interested the book I got that from is called 'Scriped Affects, Branded Selves: Television, Subjectivity, and Capitalism in 1990s Japan' by Gabriella Lukacs
I still don't know what 'subjectivity' means in this academic context. I've been trying to figure it out for over a year now!
When did it become acceptable to refer to something as "too gay"? Recently that phrase (or similar criticism) seems to have been thrown around a lot, particularly at Yuri on Ice (especially in the wake of that kiss). I'm curious as to how anime fans can only have this problem with Yuri on Ice, and not with any heterosexual harem show or romcom or basically any show with a heterosexual relationship or excessive fan service, and still claim they aren't homophobic.
I guess I just don't understand how people who are fans of such a seemingly liberal medium can openly use homophobic language, and act in a way that is, in all likelihood, probably homophobic, whilst continuing to deny they have a problem with gay people and criticising gay people for not liking Keijo!!!!!! or similar shows.
It just seems like there's a major dichotomy between the treatment of shows with heterosexual characters (or fan service aimed at heterosexuals) and homosexuals, and everyone's desperate to pretend there isn't. This was a lot less incoherent in my head.
"Oh but I'm not homophobic, because lesbians are hot!"
There is a strange contradiction in fandom where quite a few of the loud people tend to be extremely conservative about some things (mostly sexuality, but the 'weeaboo' stuff walks xenophobic ground a lot of the time too). The reasons for this completely escape my grasp. I have also noticed constant bafflement at the idea that someone who is not into cute/hot girls might not enjoy shows about cute/hot girls for the exact same reasons as their target audience - even when I was younger people would recommend stuff like Oh My Goddess without thinking that maybe dippy girls weren't all that interesting - and yet we all watch this stuff anyway because there's so much of it and of course some of it is objectively good. Then we get confused when the tables are turned and suddenly people on the other side of the fence are spooked at the idea of trying stuff that isn't aimed at them for once.
I do feel that on the whole it's a pretty decent fandom - I've certainly been in far more hostile ones - but the passive homophobia is noticeable.
Within everything in society today, there exists a segment that one could argue is 'uneducated' or perhaps more accurately 'not liberally aware' - ie. in possession of views others might see as backward or right-leaning.
Personally I kind of felt the 'too gay' or 'that's gay!' thing of using it as a slur had kind of died down a bit after peaking in the mid 00s, but I think in the case of Yuri on Ice, it's because the show is receiving a heavy marketing push from CR / is dominating online discourse this season, so people that would normally be 'safe' in their bubble are having to confront it first hand.
Forgive me if I come across as offensive or ignorant, but I have a genuine question regarding this. Is there not a difference between being homophobic, as in actively disliking gay people, thinking it's morally wrong or disgusting, etc, and just not not liking a show that you're not in the demographic for? What's the difference between not wanting to watch BL/Yaoi because it doesn't appeal to you and not wanting to watch Mech shows or Ecchi shows or whatever kind of shows for the same reason?
Forgive me if I come across as offensive or ignorant, but I have a genuine question regarding this. Is there not a difference between being homophobic, as in actively disliking gay people, thinking it's morally wrong or disgusting, etc, and just not not liking a show that you're not in the demographic for? What's the difference between not wanting to watch BL/Yaoi because it doesn't appeal to you and not wanting to watch Mech shows or Ecchi shows or whatever kind of shows for the same reason?
I wasn't necessarily saying that everyone who dislikes the show is homophobic, it's more the use of phrases like "too gay" and the objection to it being gay/showing overtly gay activities. Perhaps even the denial that the gay kiss even happened.
For what it's worth, I think some of it is just poor phrasing, so for example I think your problem was that it wasn't really something you'd enjoy and that you'd have enjoyed it more if it was more teasing. I think maybe you had some difficulties with phrasing, but the bulk of your complaint isn't homophobic (even if some might argue double standards). The problem is that some people in your situation are referring to the show as "too gay" and complaining about the "level of gayness", which somewhat implies the homoseuality is the problem, rather than the lack of subtlety.
I find it hard to tell if this is intentional, because it seems to me like just a poor attempt at humour or a bad phrasing choice, but then I've questioned whether it's homophobic before and some have persisted with it. So I'm almost tempted to say it is deliberate.
On second thoughts I'm spoiler tagging more of my post as dancing around the topic entirely is making it difficult for me to discuss. Utterly non-detailed spoilers for Yuri On Ice!!! ep 7 follow.
I think the denial is more that the scene in question was (very tastefully) vague, though it was outright confirmed by the staff and I'm sure things will be less subtle in future. And whether it happened or not, there was a definite emotional development either way which was pretty unambiguously male/male. I'm not sure if you've seen it other than the ubiquitous screenshot of that moment (which flashed by in context) but some of the deniers mights be being cautious rather than negative about it. Actual romantic progression in a sports series is almost too much to wish for, let alone plausible, sensitively-depicted same-sex affection not played entirely for laughs.
I think some people struggle with the idea of watching things that aren't aimed at them. I'll personally read/watch all sorts of stuff, from shoujo romance to explicit bara to melodramatic lesbian dramas to skeevy fan service aimed at straight dudes. It's not because I'm a particularly enlightened person. I came into fandom at a time where there was, quite literally, effectively nothing aimed at me coming out in this country. We had, what, Slow Step? Compared to all of the breasts, violence and harems Manga UK and pals were cranking out on VHS tapes as quickly as they could. So I became desensitised to straight-male-orientated fan service very early on and rolled with it until I cracked importing from the US and unlocked a whole universe of more interesting (to me) titles. People who are already part of the 'mainstream' have never really been in a position where they have to, say, watch nothing but otome game adaptations and learn to appreciate the good parts or miss out entirely.
I feel that the whole idea of the 'mainstream' is something of a false majority perpetuated by marketing executives, since straight males who like stuff exclusively aimed at straight males cannot be that dominant an audience; I know plenty of straight males who have learnt to appreciate shoujo/BL/josei/whatever and the insane power of series which hit it big proves that appealing solely to the 'dominant' demographic is not commercially necessary. Like Twilight/Fifty Shades/Star Wars/Dr Who/insert any other popular title which manages to include elements which satisfy 'non-mainstream' viewers here. Within anime we hear that the straight male buyer is king, yet we also hear that Fruits Basket, Ouran, Black Butler and the like are top sellers in the west and titles which venture outside of the safe bubble of the current big craze (moe romantic comedies?) can do extremely well back on their home turf.
But anyway, there's an idea that this particular demographic is the most important and as a result, often completely innocently, there's a sense of resistance to leaving that comfort zone of being catered to directly. Some people will say they can't read or enjoy a story about someone they can't identify with falling in love. I don't understand why I, for example, can't read a work of fiction explicitly aimed at gay men (YOI is not this, but I've read gay-orientated manga which are so that's the example I am using). I'm not a gay man. I will never be a gay man, or live the life of someone with those experiences firsthand. But I also don't live the life of a fantasy princess, space pirate or mecha pilot, and I can appreciate stories about those characters falling in love and living their lives just fine. Why is the sexual orientation thing such a high hurdle?
I can understand not wanting to read BL because you don't like relationship dramas, or because the art style (though this greatly varies by series) isn't appealing, or because you don't want to watch stuff which might include sex (BL seems to progress this way more quickly, I will grant), or because actually you're interested in same-sex relationships but it's the idealised lack of realism inherent in most BL which breaks it for you. But it's hard to understand completely dismissing the genre then lapping up straight relationship dramas or same-sex stories about girls, and doing so while slagging guy-guy romances off (which some people definitely are doing). It's a big double standard. And personally I find it sort of weird to only like romances if you're personally sexually attracted to one or both participants. Maybe that's another side effect of growing up with a sense that I'm not the main audience and I don't need to project into a role to appreciate something.
(I also don't class YOI as BL. It's a sports show with a same sex relationship as the central partnership - I think/hope - not a BL series which happens to have some sport thrown in as decoration. Dismissing a pure BL show like Sekaiichi Hatsukoi which is actually explicitly about the same-sex relationships is more understandable if you're going on genres. Dismissing an ice skating show just because two guys express tender emotions towards one another in it is a bit... OTT? To use an example, I feel comfortable dismissing moe fluff titles when they're about nothing other than the fluff because it's boring and dehumanising*, but refusing to watch important shows like Evangelion/Madoka Magica/Monogatari/GitS outright because they have integral straight-male-orientated fan service or moe elements would sound weird to me. Some of my favourite shows contain core elements I ordinarily dislike in lesser titles.)
Movies are the same. I've been invited to countless action flicks at the cinema featuring some boring self-insert hero and sexy female sidekicks running around doing cool stuff, and expected to like the content. Invite those same friends to a period drama or serious homosexual romance? Pfft, I'd be laughed at for even suggesting it unless it was a comedy.
R
Edit:
* 100% my personal opinion and not objective fact!
As we've discussed before, it seems like the "straight male" audience within anime is a lot more vocal. Hence why everyone was taken aback by the original success of Tokyo Ghoul. I guess, after only hearing that voice for so long, it convinces people that they are the "primary" audience, even though they might not be.
Tying in to what you've said, I think a lot of people only tried Free! because AL picked it up, and I think many of them were surprised by how different it was from what they were expecting (and the way AL and Funi and Crunchyroll are marketing it). To be honest, I can see how people who aren't interested in men might be offput by the marketing, because it does try and "sexualise" the show a lot more than is representative. But in the same breath, given Free!'s primary audience seems to be the yaoi audience, I can see why that angle is being played up.
I guess it's difficult, we would benefit from finding a way to convince people to try more things. But then even I'm guilty of doing similar things. I'm curious about Sailor Moon, but the barbie pink colour used on all of the releases puts me off actually ordering the thing. (How do I explain that to my parents?)
I'm not a gay man. I will never be a gay man, or live the life of someone with those experiences firsthand. But I also don't live the life of a fantasy princess, space pirate or mecha pilot, and I can appreciate stories about those characters falling in love and living their lives just fine. Why is the sexual orientation thing such a high hurdle?
As we've discussed before, it seems like the "straight male" audience within anime is a lot more vocal. Hence why everyone was taken aback by the original success of Tokyo Ghoul. I guess, after only hearing that voice for so long, it convinces people that they are the "primary" audience, even though they might not be.
My other half was talking to a male workmate about FFXIII for some reason and became quite irritated when this workmate kept insisting the main character of the game was the male Snow (he had played it). It's quite obviously supposed to be Lightning, but the guy simply could not grasp the concept of a female lead. The same workmate was complaining about some minor thing in FFX-2 being 'too girly' without having noticed that he had gone out and bought a game where the entire concept was a bunch of girls dressing up, singing, doing their own thing and kicking butt. My other half had to break it to him that not everything in the world is aimed at him.
My other half was talking to a male workmate about FFXIII for some reason and became quite irritated when this workmate kept insisting the main character of the game was the male love interest Snow (he had played it). It's quite obviously supposed to be Lightning, but the guy simply could not grasp the concept of a female lead. The same workmate was complaining about some minor thing in FFX-2 being 'too girly' without having noticed that he had gone out and bought a game where the entire concept was a bunch of girls dressing up, singing, doing their own thing and kicking butt. My other half had to break it to him that not everything in the world is aimed at him.
I've kind of been amazed that FFXV is pushing the yaoi bait that much. Given SE are trying to promote it as an AAA game and gamers are not necessarily known for their progressive values in the West, never mind Japan. Then again, maybe I'm just reading far too much into the tent sharing and the leather and the breaking off of the wedding...
Sound like FF has always been this progressive and I just haven't noticed.
I've kind of been amazed that FFXV is pushing the yaoi bait that much. Given SE are trying to promote it as an AAA game and gamers are not necessarily known for their progressive values in the West, never mind Japan. Then again, maybe I'm just reading far too much into the tent sharing and the leather and the breaking off of the wedding...
Well, FFXIV has same-sex weddings (admittedly after a fan campaign raising awareness of the limitation), a (wonderful) male NPC who pursues you no matter what your character's sex, and canonically gay minor NPCs as a happy couple, so I think that S-E is quite keen on presenting a progressive outlook in spite of the difficulties in doing so from their position. The wider FF audience is absolutely loaded with women and fans of all types outside the default 'straight male' category at this point. Weirdly FFXV has zero appeal to me. Possibly because everyone in it looks and acts like teenagers from everything they have shown, yet a lot of my (straight, male) fans have been avidly following the news. I'll have to ask them what they think.
Well, FFXIV has same-sex weddings (admittedly after a fan campaign raising awareness of the limitation), a (wonderful) male NPC who pursues you no matter what your character's sex, and canonically gay minor NPCs as a happy couple, so I think that S-E is quite keen on presenting a progressive outlook in spite of the difficulties in doing so from their position. The wider FF audience is absolutely loaded with women and fans of all types outside the default 'straight male' category at this point. Weirdly FFXV has zero appeal to me. Possibly because everyone in it looks and acts like teenagers from everything they have shown, yet a lot of my (straight, male) fans have been avidly following the news. I'll have to ask them what they think.
Tying in to what you've said, I think a lot of people only tried Free! because AL picked it up, and I think many of them were surprised by how different it was from what they were expecting (and the way AL and Funi and Crunchyroll are marketing it). To be honest, I can see how people who aren't interested in men might be offput by the marketing, because it does try and "sexualise" the show a lot more than is representative. But in the same breath, given Free!'s primary audience seems to be the yaoi audience, I can see why that angle is being played up.
I guess it's difficult, we would benefit from finding a way to convince people to try more things. But then even I'm guilty of doing similar things. I'm curious about Sailor Moon, but the barbie pink colour used on all of the releases puts me off actually ordering the thing. (How do I explain that to my parents?)
Oops, just caught your edit. It's a massive shame that the original Sailor Moon isn't streaming for everyone to watch, as it's never had a fair run here (sorry MVM, but despite your much-appreciated efforts the dub-only aborted release isn't something I was able to support). Ironically in Japan it was one of the major catalysts in the male takeover of the magical girl genre that we see today since a lot of teen guys suddenly had access to a show about a bunch of leggy girls spinning around naked and transforming into sexy costumes with short skirts; more than one fan told me that was what got them interested back when it was airing and in its first wave of popularity in the US. Then they stayed because they liked the show itself.
I can see how it would be awkward though. Just let your parents watch Sailor Moon with you if they're worried, they can't possibly fail to love it*.
I'm happy to see the posts from people who did take a punt on Free! and realised that it was actually an accessible show with nothing racier than a bit of (self aware) teasing. I've been buying DVDs and VHS tapes covered in bouncing boobs for years now so it's fun to see the problem of sexualised packaging from the other side
R
* This may be bad and extremely biased advice depending on your folks.
Tying in to what you've said, I think a lot of people only tried Free! because AL picked it up, and I think many of them were surprised by how different it was from what they were expecting (and the way AL and Funi and Crunchyroll are marketing it).
In my case it was Doctor requesting me to start the show during the Summer. I figured I would give it a shot and I was rather surprised with the turnout. I then picked up AL's Season 2 release when Doc told me it was at a decent price (plus the Prime Student 1st order coupon helped).
So I noted somewhere that Sentai had Nurse Witch Komugi, yet didn't release it was a TV series that aired at the beginning of this year (I remember getting the ADV OVAs back some years ago). If this is the case I guess it warrants them to release the OVAs again AND, quite possibly The SoulTaker, since that was the original concept behind it.
I guess "sex sells" or something like that and it's certainly more apparent then the VHS tapes I could find, but nonetheless I've ended up with raunchy covers then had to question my ethics. My closest friend recommend me to watch Sekirei and granted it has a reasonable story, but here's Mangas selling point in bright pink letters
This was posted nearly a year ago, but it's something that's only now come to my attention - translation of an Animage interview with Mamoru Oshii from 1985. He's mainly talking about Angel's Egg but, tantalisingly, he gives a brief description of what would have been the plot for his Lupin film, the clearest outline of it I've yet seen: http://eigageijutsu.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/interview-with-mamoru-oshii-on-angels.html
I read that Akira article I was talking about earlier. Pretty interesting. I'll try and screen grab it and post it when I get home if I can figure it out. There's definitely a lot going on in that film, but a quick and rubbish summary of the article is that Akira was both heavy inspired by and aimed at the rebellious bosozoku biker gang youth of the 80s, yet still presents and affirms certain traditional Confucian ideals of masculinity.
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