David Cameron: a Prime Minister you can be proud of?

[Animefreak17]

King Jimmeh

i guess your right

theres too much hate in this greedy world of ours

 

[shira]

 

[Vashdaman]

Ah well, since this do you like David Camron thread has now become the do you like religion thread, I may as well chime in.

Mutsumi i get the feeling that you are indeed a Marxist am i not correct?

Indeed. ^_^ And I am feeling quite chirpy right now as the top post of this page made me laugh. Consequently, as I am sure you are just as aware as I am that we have opposite views and both understand each other's side, I would be happy to simply agree to disagree, before things get too heated and we start repeating ourselves.

Also, I am glad you agree with me on the point of religion. I feel that religion can teach many useful lessons in life once you look past the mythology of it all.

Funnily enough I kind of have the opposite view from you on religion. You see on the whole I could care less about all the morality trips of most religions love to beat over our heads, but on other hand the real esoteric teachings of most religions are what really fascinate me. I'm assuming its the other way around in your case?

Now this doesn't mean I'm not what you could describe as a "moral person", its just I'm not in the slightest bit interested in the moral guidelines every major religion has felt the need to shove down our throats based on the whims of what an old society felt was "acceptable". Things like: no sex before marriage, no "bad" thoughts, gay is evil, ect,ect. Then making people feel guilty, I'm not too keen on all that. Theres always a black and white destinction of this "good" and that "bad" when really theres no good or bad. Thats why I never refer to myself as a "moral person", to me morality is just about keeping in line with what the society around you deem to be "right" nothing more.

However the deeper esoteric teachings that often weren't always accessible to the masses or understood by them, thats where the real wisdom and knolwledge is for me.

 

[Mutsumi]

Things like: no sex before marriage, no "bad" thoughts, gay is evil, ect,ect. Then making people feel guilty, I'm not too keen on all that. Theres always a black and white destinction of this "good" and that "bad" when really theres no good or bad. Thats why I never refer to myself as a "moral person", to me morality is just about keeping in line with what the society around you deem to be "right" nothing more.

I agree with you. I hate when religion berates homosexuality, sex before marriage, etc, under the guise of morality, when such things were never immoral in the first place. However, there is much common ground that religion and society as a whole share when it comes to morality, and it is that common ground to which I refer.

However the deeper esoteric teachings that often weren't always accessible to the masses or understood by them, thats where the real wisdom and knowledge is for me.

I am intrigued. Could you give an example of the kind of teachings you are referring to, so I could have a better understanding of what you are suggesting?

 

[ilmaestro]

i can go on and on and on

We know.

9:27am:

I give up. You're impossible to talk to.

well explain to me what your talking about then
you've been taken in by religious propaganda

9:29am:

I give up. You're impossible to talk to.

tell ya what you believe what you believe and il believe what i believe ok sorted

 

[VivisQueen]

Mutsumi i get the feeling that you are indeed a Marxist am i not correct?

Indeed. ^_^ And I am feeling quite chirpy right now as the top post of this page made me laugh. Consequently, as I am sure you are just as aware as I am that we have opposite views and both understand each other's side, I would be happy to simply agree to disagree, before things get too heated and we start repeating ourselves.

Also, I am glad you agree with me on the point of religion. I feel that religion can teach many useful lessons in life once you look past the mythology of it all.

I've met a few marxist in my time and i don't see them as very intelligent as i do remember a saying there are those who read Marx and follow it and there are those who understand it and won't follow.

The worst kind of argument to make is that all your opponents are idiots. That's pulling the wool over your own eyes and making you the ignoramus.

As long as we're all agreed that David Cameron is the spawn of Satan, this thread served its purpose...


... nawwww. Just jokin'!

Also, anyone who cares, here's a formal debate between Tony Blair and Christopher Hitchens, the title of which is 'Is Religion a Force for Good in the World?' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfCbjYsRbT8

 

[Vashdaman]

Things like: no sex before marriage, no "bad" thoughts, gay is evil, ect,ect. Then making people feel guilty, I'm not too keen on all that. Theres always a black and white destinction of this "good" and that "bad" when really theres no good or bad. Thats why I never refer to myself as a "moral person", to me morality is just about keeping in line with what the society around you deem to be "right" nothing more.

I agree with you. I hate when religion berates homosexuality, sex before marriage, etc, under the guise of morality, when such things were never immoral in the first place. However, there is much common ground that religion and society as a whole share when it comes to morality, and it is that common ground to which I refer.

However the deeper esoteric teachings that often weren't always accessible to the masses or understood by them, thats where the real wisdom and knowledge is for me.

I am intrigued. Could you give an example of the kind of teachings you are referring to, so I could have a better understanding of what you are suggesting?

Yeah I definitely agree with you there, no doubt there is a lot of good in those teachings as well, maybe I was a bit harsh. Also all major religions do indeed all encourage people to do good and cultivate selflessness. I also do certainly believe in karma and that every action we make has an equal opposite reaction, its just when these moral teachings are taken too far that I get fed up with it. However this certainly isn't just a religious thing, its also the reason I can't stand Confucianism with the whole Filial piety taken too far and so on, and all it really has is Confucius' sometimes rubbish moral and social philosophies.


As for what teachings I was referring to, well I'm a lot more drawn to the eastern teachings on the whole rather than the western, but I do know that the western faiths do have their own various esoteric teachings. I suppose a good example of what I'm talking about might be Patanjali's Yoga Sutras with a commentary sri swami satchidananda (it was the first one I read, and still one of my favourites). The Yoga Sutras is actually a brilliantly practical book that doesn't go too deeply into theory but it was a bit of an eye opener for me. By some the Sutras are classed as a "Hindu" text, but I don't actually see it as one. There may be some cross over of ideas, but on the whole the book doesn't really resemble modern mainstream Hinduism at all. Its very broad and Patanjali was clearly very careful to word it in a way so it is accessible to people of any faith. There are still some things in the book I don't completely follow( such as the whole no sex thing), but I really can't recommend this book enough!

As for the link that Vivi posted. Its just the same religious vs athiest debate I always hear. the athiest debators such as Hitchens they always only go for the same easy target and simple definition of "God", I know the word often draws up certain imagery in peoples minds but still they never consider some of the other definitions of God such as how as described in the Yoga Sutras for example, they haven't actually ever gone in depth into these various esotrtic teachings they just attack the same ol target. I know that wasn't really what the debate was about and I'm not religious myself either I just take what I like and kind of do my own thing, so I suppose for lack of a better word I would just say I'm spiritual. But still when someone like Hitchens criticizes the super natural elements of faiths it's just because he really doesn't understand them. Super natural abilites do certainly exist and you don't have to be "religious" to have attained them either. Yes many christian faith based healers might well be frauds but that doesn't mean that people with super natural healing or otherwise abilities don't exist. If he did more reading or met a great master and tried to understand these ideas he might realize that they aren't really "dangerous ideas" at all. These ideas are just outside of his world view

 

[Mutsumi]

Super natural abilites do certainly exist and you don't have to be "religious" to have attained them either. Yes many christian faith based healers might well be frauds but that doesn't mean that people with super natural healing or otherwise abilities don't exist.

Things we know as science now were considered supernatural one or two hundred years ago, but were still just as real. Therefore I will not let the boundaries of present day technology solely define what I consider to be possible, as something one could dismiss today could be proven science in a hundred years time.

 

[Vashdaman]

^
Exactly, and the beautiful thing is that some of the most cutting edge science is some ways actually catching up and its coming full circle.

Maybe not quite up to some of the most incredible things out there, but things acupuncture, the power of vibrations and therefore the benefit of chanting certain sounds and so on, science is beggining to catch up with. Whilst there are still many who strongly try and deny those same things have scientific evidence I believe they just do it out of fear or for whatever ulterior motives they might have.