CLIMATEGATE!!! The Global Warming Agenda exposed.

[ayase]

Its just like having a war to stop the terrorists, you cant actually do that can you, and of course its the same by using the word climate change.

I'm not convinced the two are analogous. Terrorism is a method of violence no amount of conventional warfare will stop, but I think we do have the means to influence the climate in our favour. It's just the actual doing it - which I think is why we need legislation.

A war on terrorism and a war on climate change are in analogous in that they are both equally vague and both allow legislation passed due to them to stay in place for long periods of time no matter how much personal liberty is sacraficed, i.e, Patriot act, Homland security acts.

Okay, so they both have lofty bordering on unachievable aims, will cost us money, we will have to sacrifice some of our liberties and success is in no way guaranteed. Point taken. I think however that the major difference I see between the 'War on Terror' and the fight against Climate Change are that one takes our tax money and uses (or used - I think the War on Terror is now a spectacular failure which is being wound down. Watching the Iraq Inquiry? Final nail in the coffin.) it to topple governments to advance the corporate and political interests of wealthy and powerful individuals overseas. The other takes our tax money and uses it to help the environment. Somehow I don't see carbon taxation causing the deaths of thousands of civilians. Quite the reverse, in fact.

 

[CitizenGeek]

Outlawstar, you're desperation is unnerving. I don't understand what motivates you to be so willing to accept things for which there is no conclusive proof at all, but it's silly.

You called the British and American scientists involved in this incident of malpractice the U.N. authority on climate change when this is not true at all. Those scientists do no work for the U.N. You are using untruths to further your paranoid, sketchy ideas. That is always the sign of a weak argument.

The only sources you can present that draw the same ridiculous, overblown conclusion are self-identified right-wing news organisations. That these right-wingers have blown this one small case of unethical behaviour by a small number of scientists in one university completely and utterly out of proportion only serves to prove their denialism further.

And no, Outlawstar, you definitely do not provide proper, peer-reviewed, objective evidence to support your ideas. Ever.

 

[skikes]

Im not going to read 5 pages of people throwing their 2 cents in... but i am gonna throw mine in ^_^

Fact is climate change is a natural part of the earths cycle. Its been happening for millions of years and its still happening. Cattle have been farting out unimaginable amounts of pollution long before cars and planes were around.

But just because climate change isn't something we can control doesn't mean we should stop recycling and saving energy. That just makes sense.

I think the only question here is, is the lie worth telling to get people doing what they should already be doing. I think so.

 

[CitizenGeek]

I disagree, I think it would be immoral to lie to people in order to get them to behave as you wish. There is something to be said for a greater good, and the end justifying the means, but I really do think that lying is almost always wrong when it comes to things that are not trivial.

The good thing is that climate change is not a lie and so disseminating the truth that the 6 billion people on Earth and all of the toxins we are pumping into the Earth are causing enormous harm is not unethical in the slightest.

 

[chaos]

My point is that global warming by human activity in relation to co2 is not settled science, it is not a consensus, it should therefore not be used as an excuse to tax and police the public, especially in this economic state of affairs.

Consensus should hardly be used to pass laws. I.E. Same sex civil marriage, drugs, abortion, capital punishment, gun ownership..... None of these are consensus and yet, laws are passed on them. There will be defendants on each side, each of them with their reasons for allowing / criminalize those things. But regardless of consensus, a decision mus be taken into these.

 

[Outlawstar]

Outlawstar, you're desperation is unnerving. I don't understand what motivates you to be so willing to accept things for which there is no conclusive proof at all, but it's silly.

Likewise!

You called the British and American scientists involved in this incident of malpractice the U.N. authority on climate change when this is not true at all. Those scientists do no work for the U.N. You are using untruths to further your paranoid, sketchy ideas. That is always the sign of a weak argument.

I apologise, what I meant to say more clearly is these are the scientists the IPCC and UN cite with a large body of their publications and are heavily affiliated with them, it is one o the top climate research centres in the world, stop tip-toeing around the issue now please.

The only sources you can present that draw the same ridiculous, overblown conclusion are self-identified right-wing news organisations. That these right-wingers have blown this one small case of unethical behaviour by a small number of scientists in one university completely and utterly out of proportion only serves to prove their denialism further.

What are you talking about, this has been reported in every newspaper you listed as respectable, except the Independant I think.
Small unethical behaviour?
The emails and documents paint a vetry clear picture of collusion, deceit, data manipulation and outright lies, in relation to Anthropogenic Global warming.

And no, Outlawstar, you definitely do not provide proper, peer-reviewed, objective evidence to support your ideas. Ever.

Blegh, that old trick, first off, Im not presenting an idea of mine, so lets get rid of that concept straight away, if youve read the emails, youd notice the peer review process, has for now at least, lost all credibility!

Im just wondering, do you believe that the earth is currently warming and that emmisions of co2 is the prime cause?

 

[Outlawstar]

I think the only question here is, is the lie worth telling to get people doing what they should already be doing. I think so.

I must disagree here, thats the kind of rhetoric a fascist/communist government pulls to justify its outwardly heinous acts.

 

[Outlawstar]

My point is that global warming by human activity in relation to co2 is not settled science, it is not a consensus, it should therefore not be used as an excuse to tax and police the public, especially in this economic state of affairs.

Consensus should hardly be used to pass laws. I.E. Same sex civil marriage, drugs, abortion, capital punishment, gun ownership..... None of these are consensus and yet, laws are passed on them. There will be defendants on each side, each of them with their reasons for allowing / criminalize those things. But regardless of consensus, a decision mus be taken into these.

There is a difference, this invloves science, its a tabgible issue, not a moral or ethical one, a decision does not have to me made in this cae, until the science is undebatable, which it absolutely is not, why people dont understand this I just dont know.

 

[ayase]

I think the only question here is, is the lie worth telling to get people doing what they should already be doing. I think so.

Interesting. I'm still undecided but am leaning ever more towards this belief - it feels very elitist to think that way but when you see the **** most people believe simply being influenced by nothing more than the people around them, you realise the ones doing the lying aren't to blame for the majority of the population being idiots. Politics is mostly lies and propaganda not at the expense of, but because of democracy. People have to tell the public lies to gain and hold onto power - because they are so fickle, gullible and stupid that there is no other way. Sometimes (increasingly often) I find myself thinking I'd prefer an honest dictatorship who actually get things done to a lying democracy where nothing ever gets done and massive amounts of time, money and resources are wasted due to red tape and public consultation.

I don't like the government intervening in people's personal or social lives at all, and this is a big problem if you put anyone in absolute power. But these things only concern them because they have some deluded sense of morality based on nothing but their own opinion (banning gay marriage, pornography etc.). If the government wasn't concerned with morality at all - wasn't concerned with opinion at all - but simply made decisions based on facts and logic (ie: I still say machines would make the best rulers) then the world would run a hell of a lot better. We need more power. Build more power plants. We need less CO2. Reduce the carbon emissions. It doesn't matter how, as long as it gets done! If we need three planets to sustain the world's population at western standards of living... let's go f*cking get some more planets then!

 

[Outlawstar]

Interesting. I'm still undecided but am leaning ever more towards this belief - it feels very elitist to think that way but when you see the **** most people believe, you realise the people doing the lying aren't to blame for the majority of the population being idiots.

It is quite elitist actually and its exactly that kind of thinking in both a religious and political sense that has incited more death than any other ideologies in human history, people are not idiots, they are just un-informed, Im not implying Im some all knowing informed being here, just pointing out a fact, they are victims of their familes perception of society and how it apparently works, and thus they are victims to the corrupt system, so no I wouldint personally call the population idiots, I just think they need to be informed better,not in the sense that, oh heres teh truth, follow it or else, no, but to have enough information to make a truly informed decision, instead of just blindly doing what so called experts believe is best.

Politics is mostly lies and propaganda not at the expense of, but because of democracy. People have to tell the public lies to gain and hold onto power - because they are so fickle, gullible and stupid that there is no other way. Sometimes (increasingly often) I find myself thinking I'd prefer an honest dictatorship who actually get things done to a lying democracy where nothing ever gets done and massive amounts of time, money and resources are wasted due to red tape and public consultation.

Look at teh history of dictators and tell me you may want one, a dictator is by nature an slitist and commonly a racist in some manner that he actually has teh power to act on, no I would never want a stable society at the expense of an informed society.

I don't like the government intervening in people's personal or social lives at all, and this is a big problem if you put anyone in absolute power. But these things only concern them because they have some deluded sense of morality based on nothing but their own opinion (banning gay marriage, pornography etc.). If the government wasn't concerned with morality at all - wasn't concerned with opinion at all - but simply made decisions based on facts and logic (ie: I still say machines would make the best rulers) then the world would run a hell of a lot better.

Not if the population is as gullible as it inherently would be in a system like that, in that case, you facts may could be the so called fact that a communist supporting autistic chap burned down the reichstag, or the so called fact that Pearl Harbour was a surprise attack, or the so called fact that the Federal Reserve is Federal, or the so called fact that teh drug companies have your best interests at heart, you see what Im getting at here.....

We need more power. Build more power plants. We need less CO2. Reduce the carbon emissions. It doesn't matter how, as long as it gets done! If we need three planets to sustain the world's population at western standards of living... let's go f*cking get some more planets then

You know I disagree with this, you saying ends justify the means here, it actually kind of scares me how people can actually believe that as a plausible philosophy in such cases.

No offence.

 

[Ryo Chan]

! If we need three planets to sustain the world's population at western standards of living... let's go f*cking get some more planets then!

but to do that, someone needs to get their finger out and actually challenge the US in the space race.

as it stands NASA are happy just poking the moon and mars

 

[ayase]

Once again Outlaw, no offence taken. We can both be pretty harsh debaters but I know neither of us really has anything against the other personally. We have different beliefs and I'm sure they're the product of different lives and experiences. Me? I've grown so disillusioned with humanity, that while I'd really like us to have open, honest, fair government and an informed populace who take responsibility for themselves everything I've seen of human nature tells me this will never be possible. Humans are flawed. They are selfish. They are gullible. They are idiots. And nothing will ever change that, which makes any dreams of utopia, yours or mine, just that. Dreams. So convinced am I of humanity's detestable nature, frankly if 90% of the population were gassed and shovelled into ovens tomorrow, I wouldn't particularly care. I don't think I'd care that much if I was among them.

I don't wish to come across all emo here, but if I lift my idealist mask for a second there's a nihilist under here who likes to tell it like it is. There is no purpose to existence. There is no right or wrong. We all belong to the void, and eventually so too does this planet and this universe. Does what happens between now and the end of time matter? Is humanity worth saving, be it from global warming or from totalitarian hell? Some people (yourself included, I expect) say yes, people are worth saving. Give them a chance, humanity can be improved. I used to think like that once. No longer. My idealism is still there, but now it only burns like a pilot light to keep me alive and sane - the gas which fuelled it long ago ran out.

And that I think, for my contribution to this discussion ladies and gentlemen (and perhaps many more of this kind in the future), is that.

 

[Ryo Chan]

I don't wish to come across all emo here, but if I lift my idealist mask for a second there's a nihilist under here who likes to tell it like it is. There is no purpose to existence. There is no right or wrong. We all belong to the void, and eventually so too does this planet and this universe. Does what happens between now and the end of time matter? Is humanity worth saving, be it from global warming or from totalitarian hell? Some people (yourself included, I expect) say yes, people are worth saving. Give them a chance, humanity can be improved. I used to think like that once. No longer. My idealism is still there, but now it only burns like a pilot light to keep me alive and sane - the gas which fuelled it long ago ran out.

i have to say, now would be a great time for a giant alien battleship to crash land on earth and give humanity a new perspective on life.

not that i'm just saying that cause i want to fly a Valkyrie

 

[Outlawstar]

Once again Outlaw, no offence taken. We can both be pretty harsh debaters but I know neither of us really has anything against the other personally. We have different beliefs and I'm sure they're the product of different lives and experiences. Me?

I've grown so disillusioned with humanity, that while I'd really like us to have open, honest, fair government and an informed populace who take responsibility for themselves everything I've seen of human nature tells me this will never be possible. Humans are flawed. They are selfish. They are gullible. They are idiots. A

Its funny because there are many places in the world where humans do just that, humans may be flawed and selfish, but we are also kind and loving , we are also passionate and perhaps most importantly creators, we have a gift that is priceless, we have been gifted this life and in my humble opionion I dont want to waste one second of it not pursuing my passions.

And nothing will ever change that, which makes any dreams of utopia, yours or mine, just that. Dreams. So convinced am I of humanity's detestable nature, frankly if 90% of the population were gassed and shovelled into ovens tomorrow, I wouldn't particularly care. I don't think I'd care that much if I was among them.

It saddens me to hear anyone say that, such callous disregard for your fellow humans, your fellow sentient brothers who have loved and lived just as you have, who are all on the same boat as you, Im not saying we should have some kind of hippyish love for everyone no matter what and I accept you feel that way of course, but to judge a book by its cover can be a mistake as you know.

I don't wish to come across all emo here, but if I lift my idealist mask for a second there's a nihilist under here who likes to tell it like it is. There is no purpose to existence.

Of course theres a purpose to existence, and even if you dont believe that, what your gonna let that stop you from making your own purposes?

There is no right or wrong.

Maybe not objectively, but there certainly is pain and love, I know which Id prefer along with 99 percent of humanity.

We all belong to the void, and eventually so too does this planet and this universe. Does what happens between now and the end of time matter?

We dont beling to the void, we belong to a vast network of extraordinary galaxies, stars and planets, and likely are just one of many millions of civilizations out there, we have a natural instinct to explore, to discover, to create, these are not things you have to teach, instead of trying to be good which as you say is objective when taken at least out of a eligious context, let us not bring pain to others, I hate to quote the bible but to do unto others as you would do yourself is a philosophy worth a thousand words.

Is humanity worth saving, be it from global warming or from totalitarian hell? Some people (yourself included, I expect) say yes, people are worth saving. Give them a chance, humanity can be improved. I used to think like that once. No longer. My idealism is still there, but now it only burns like a pilot light to keep me sane - the gas which fuelled it long ago ran out.

I actually really hope you can re-discover the sheer wonder of the mere fact we are existing, the fact we are even here, the fact we have senses , we can experience amazing things, we can live, we can love, we can laugh, we do not need laughter to survive, but its there my friend, teh universe it seemes may have a sense of humour after all.

I hope that wasint too sentimental, but it worries me that you say how little you care, yet your adamant that co2 Emmisions should be cut, Im confused.

 

[skikes]

edit: i was being a troll

 

[ayase]

[I hope that wasint too sentimental, but it worries me that you say how little you care, yet your adamant that co2 Emmisions should be cut, Im confused.

That's just it. I decided, right now, that my stance on this is not in keeping with my feelings towards humanity in general. So I changed it. don't care any more. People can and will do what they like anyway. Tomorrow I might fell differently but today I see nothing worth saving. F*ck 'em.

 

[skikes]

[I hope that wasint too sentimental, but it worries me that you say how little you care, yet your adamant that co2 Emmisions should be cut, Im confused.

That's just it. I decided, right now, that my stance on this is not in keeping with my feelings towards humanity in general. So I changed it. don't care any more. People can and will do what they like anyway. Tomorrow I might fell differently but today I see nothing worth saving. F*ck 'em.

Hmm i kinda feel like this. Global warming. Co2. All that jazz. I just feel indifferent about everything... except kittens getting beaten up

 

[Outlawstar]

[I hope that wasint too sentimental, but it worries me that you say how little you care, yet your adamant that co2 Emmisions should be cut, Im confused.

That's just it. I decided, right now, that my stance on this is not in keeping with my feelings towards humanity in general. So I changed it. don't care any more. People can and will do what they like anyway. Tomorrow I might fell differently but today I see nothing worth saving. F*ck 'em.

Is there no-one on this planet that you love?

 

[Outlawstar]

Fact is climate change is a natural part of the earths cycle. Its been happening for millions of years and its still happening. Cattle have been farting out unimaginable amounts of pollution long before cars and planes were around.

Exactly, using the term climate change as the media does is misleading and nothing more that a PR stunt.

But just because climate change isn't something we can control doesn't mean we should stop recycling and saving energy. That just makes sense.

I agree, but lets not confuse general environmental awareness with a religious hatred of all things co2

And as I alluded to earlier, climate actually is increasingly something we can control, we have the capability to manipulate the weather in many ways, of course some of the theoriese for stopping global warming are just absurd, like spraying the sky full of so2.
But always keep in mind the aspect of hidden technologies, its very important and not to be dismissed without thorough consideration.

 

[Ryo Chan]

ok lets keep this on topic before we all sign some sort of suicide pact