The General Conversation Area

[Tachi]

I think positive discrimination is still a necessary right now,

No just no.

Its getting to the stage where positive discrimination is actually harmful, it should be equal opportunity (which i know the NHS follow as i've sat through plenty of interviews for staff trying to join the NHS) and that means finding the right person for the job based on their answers and a point system based on how well they did in the interview. Colour, creed and anything else should mean f*ck all!

So no, **** off with your positive discrimination, equality for all and nobody should get through on stupid points such as "i'm a minority" no you are either the best candidate for the job or you are not, ifnot then accept it the same as everyone else has to and go find another job opportunity.

Im sick of pandering to stupid rules due to do gooders who believe that others are treated better or worse based on colour, creed, belief ect ect. Positive discrimination and political correctness can take a flying f*ck off a cliff.

 

[Animefreak17]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ55B1OeS40 here's something on political correctness staring L

I'd like to make something clear on something

There's no such thing as race because we are all human beings at the end of the day, the reason why people use the world race is because some people likes to be separated from others that doesn't look the same as them or believe or had the same culture as them,

Black White green yellow red it dosent matter, only idiots like the nazi or the kkk or BNP believe in that s***

The reason why people look different like Asians, black, White, ect is because of the environment people live in and how they live in that environment, look it this way,

I don't care if people call me a idiot for saying theres no such thing as race because I see everyone as equals and humans.

 

[Zin5ki]

I may report another successful acquisition of a complementary frozen dessert. On a related note, I also won a portable beverage bottle by spectating at the annual London folding bicycle race (whose competitors were resplendent in fitting business attire).

 

[Vashdaman]

Its getting to the stage where positive discrimination is actually harmful

Harmful for who? Have you or any of your white friends suffered considerably as a result of these policies? I know it's popular for certain parts of the media to portray it as if the roles have now reversed, as if it's now harder for a white person to gain employment or acceptance into a school than an ethnic minority, but that's really not the case. If you thought about it with a level head you would probably find much less to be rageful about. It's all well and good to claim that "Colour, creed and anything else should mean f*ck all!" and I agree with that statement whole heartedly, but how is just saying that going to actually deal with the problem of racism? I don't want to make it out like race is the end all and be all and that people should just cry "rasicm!" every time their hard done by, but it is a reality that we live in a society that in many ways can still be fairly described as institutionally racist; some people within such a society will be born with greater privileges than others because of skin colour, and that's the issue that positive discrimination policies were brought in to address, at least in some limited way, but it is at least something. Removing these polices without having any better plan on how to deal with discrimination, is surely just taking a step backwards? Almost in antithesis to the point ayase was making (and I'm not saying it wasn't a fair point to some extent), I suspect that the reason some get so hot under the collar about these policies is because they don't want their racial privileges infringed upon (and I'm not saying that's anyone here by the way).

Positive discrimination and political correctness can take a flying f*ck off a cliff.

...Aren't you the guy that got all outraged after the Nakama Britannica podcast had the impertinence to hire two Scottish hosts and not a Welsh? :lol:

Black White green yellow red it dosent matter, only idiots like the nazi or the kkk or BNP believe in that s***

Unfortunately it's not just the KKK and BNP. There are still plenty within our society that still ascribe great meaning to race and base stereotypes off it. It's the reason why if your a black male in London, your something like 30 times more likely to be stopped and searched by police. While racism still clearly persists in our society we still need to work hard to actively combat it.

 

[Animefreak17]

Society needs to change for the better and treat everyone eqaully, if someone treats you with respect your obligated to do the same.

You see it's minority with in cultures there's always going to be people with in minority's that's going to give people within that culture or society.

I mean yeah theres people who come from cultures and such who are very strict or prideful with there history and ways of life,

People should Learn from history and look forward in the future not back.
People should just loosen up and enjoy them selfs while there alive cause you only get one chance at life,

As for stereotypes yes there are people who are in fact do stereotype things in all cultures but everyone's diffrent and don't follow stereotypes, it's like saying -

All gypsys are thieves which is a stereotype but there are some who do it and some who don't
All Jews are money grabbers, some are some aren't.

It's depends on the person.

I see everyone as equals.

 

[Animefreak17]

Besides the true meaning of a raceist is - someone who wants to kills someone or hurt someone who dosent come from the same race as other people.

You know I don't believe in race but I'm just saying so some people can understand what I'm trying to say.

 

[Mutsumi]

Trying to fight discrimination by using more discrimination is not the way to go, as it can cause more resentment between groups. What colour someone is is such a worthless factor to judge someone by anyway, so anyone using it to discriminate should simply be prohibited from occupying positions that enable them to do so. The only discrimination that should be permitted is that of ability; the superior should always take priority over the inferior. Nobody wants employers to think "I've got too many smart well-educated employees, I better hire a derp to balance it".

 

[Animefreak17]

I totally agree, never judge a book by it's cover

 

[Kite]

I think positive discrimination is still a necessary right now,

No just no.

Its getting to the stage where positive discrimination is actually harmful, it should be equal opportunity (which i know the NHS follow as i've sat through plenty of interviews for staff trying to join the NHS) and that means finding the right person for the job based on their answers and a point system based on how well they did in the interview. Colour, creed and anything else should mean f*ck all!

So no, **** off with your positive discrimination, equality for all and nobody should get through on stupid points such as "i'm a minority" no you are either the best candidate for the job or you are not, ifnot then accept it the same as everyone else has to and go find another job opportunity.

Im sick of pandering to stupid rules due to do gooders who believe that others are treated better or worse based on colour, creed, belief ect ect. Positive discrimination and political correctness can take a flying f*ck off a cliff.

I knew a recruiter for a large company whom left as she couldn't hire whom she felt was the right person for the job, she had to hire to make an "unoffical" quota of various groups, even if they were absolute rubbish in the interview and left after a week in the role.

It's been said, if your a young white British male, your at a disadvantage.

-----------

Changing topic, I saw Derren Brown last night, what an amazing show.

 

[Vashdaman]

The only discrimination that should be permitted is that of ability

And I totally agree. But I just keep hearing people say this as if it wasn't the case that the reason why these policies were introduced was precisely because people weren't being discriminated on the basis of ability alone.

It's been said, if your a young white British male, your at a disadvantage.

Well the person who said that was obviously either a complete idiot or a racist. That statement is just so divorced from reality. It's exactly this kind of myth that I believe certain sections are deliberately propagating, and which is the kind of rubbish that is fuelling the whole "making people resentful" thing that people have mentioned.

I also take issue with anyone finding Darren Brown amazing, but that's just a personal prejudice of mine.

 

[Chaz]

I may report another successful acquisition of a complementary frozen dessert.

Oh come on! It's easy to get a frozen desert - Just go to the local shop or supermarket! (You will need money though...) Peh, making it sound like some ancient puzzle being solved...

Dang it!!

As for the racial discussion:
It's a lot easier to be a racist than it is to be anti-racist - At least that's from my experience from hearing ex-workmates and comedians going on about how "a black man" talks. Just think - Professional comedians not actually saying something racial about them in terms of how they look and such, but when a black male is visually shown or described in a sketch, you either get imitations from them with a deep, low-toned and husky bark, or a quick, high-pitched "wat's up wid that?" (Come on... Even Gregory Helms can do that, but he isn't black.)
Then you get the whole "British jobs are being invaded" and such from non-white ethnics. From a personal POV, I don't care what they look like or if they have come from abroad originally. A British citizen is someone who comes to Britain and served the island/s with loyalty and respect. While I hate people coming into the country with intent to take advantage of our systems and not giving back, I welcome an Asian national who has a good personality and hard at labour than some of the haters and leeches of my own colour. I do go around a I notice there ARE foreign families that dont speak much English - And I'm sorry, but when I say "respect" at least learn the language of the culture. It feels awkward when you're serving a couple of customers, and you're trying to make them feel comfortable... You don't understand the 1st words that come out of their mouth, and when you ask them a simple "How was your day/How are you?" they can only summon the knowledge to say "Hello," or "No."*
And that example irritates me - That can be of any origin though, i.e. East Europeans who are white and know no English. I do feel like ethnic minorities get a lot of heat from this compared the whites - whether these assumptions are accurate, I dont know. From my perspective, a lot of people will find it easier to blame a group that is new and alienate them. We say that Asian families are big for British culture, but their culture (I believe) is usually full of families with 3+ children. But British families are also breaking the 1/2 children per family quota we commonly assume. However, that becomes an individual issue rather than a group issue.

I agree that ANY kind of racial discrimination is distasteful and unnecessary, positive or negative. America and the UK I believe are a lot more stuck up and try to be closet-racist than they'd like to admit. I mean, do I need to mention the EDL? But I wonder if the same could be said about racism towards whites... Do other cultures think an Englishman has grandeur issues and think they're blue-blood? Are Irish seen as drunk and barbaric, with flame-coloured hair? I don't know - I don't even know if anyone has tried to find out. And to be honest, it doesn't take the colour of someone's skin to throw those discriminative stereotypes, but like I said - I don't know how other ethnics see white people in a racial way.

It seems to me that because people as a whole have done things racially and horrific in the past, that stigmata has stuck. The Spanish vs Inca, American colonisation from Europe, African slave trade, Sakoku and USA vs Japan in WW2, i.e. Pearl Harbour, Hiroshima A-Bomb. (Last example wasn't racially induced, but you can see why people of both sides would hold a grudge.) Some people cant get past these situations, either thinking we are too proud, we were the victors or we were victims. We insult each other, basing it on racial hate at times and it escalates: "Their eyes are small/slanted." Use of the "n" word for black slaves. "Stinking Mexicans." They are engraved into culture for the wrong reasons and even if people collectively go against it, some will use it for their anger. Racism will not go away because it's part of our global history. Like other traditions, some will keep up the belief of some racist ideals, others may use it for entertainment knowing it's a dodgy subject (like a naughty kid), and some will say they aren't but act like they are.

So surely it's easier to hate something rather than build trust and like them, right? And do we forget these slurs and insults? No, but we learn of them so we can deter from it and learn to respect others. We will know of these taboos for better or for worse at some time, and even though it's meant to evolve our society, it will never delete the stain of racism that occurred in history to present.
I've probably run a mile with this and got lost on the way. Sorry if I've confused anyone.

*Mind you, there's a lot of times where I've asked a white British person "How was your day?" and got a "Yes, I would please." ¬_¬ It's like people have a scripted way to respond to questions just because they expect those questions to be asked at that time...

 

[ayase]

It's been said, if your a young white British male, your at a disadvantage.

Well the person who said that was obviously either a complete idiot or a racist. That statement is just so divorced from reality. It's exactly this kind of myth that I believe certain sections are deliberately propagating, and which is the kind of rubbish that is fuelling the whole "making people resentful" thing that people have mentioned.

It depends on whether we're talking generally, or in specific situations. If it's the former, as I've already said I don't think you can generalize like that because there are very well off white males and desperately poor white males - Even within the "white male" demographic there isn't equality of opportunity. If we're talking specific situations, then it's hard to see how political parties drawing up all female short-lists or racial quotas in the workplace don't disadvantage those who don't meet those requirements - If the powers that be have decided that a position is going to be filled by someone non-white and non-male then the chance of success for someone who is neither of those things diminishes to 0%. And just as not all white males are at an advantage, not all non-white, non-males are disadvantaged either. Who do you think fills the majority of these mandated high-up positions? If you look at their backgrounds, it's still the well off, highly educated ethnic minorities and women who are better off than the poor white males! The black kids on the council estates still stand just as little chance of getting there as they ever did, as do the white kids next door to them.

And inevitably, as I know from experience when I start to talk about these things, the "you don't know what it's like" argument starts to rear it's head. No, it's perfectly true that I don't know what it's like to be black, or a woman. But nor do I have the slightest idea what it's like to be a different white male either! I don't know what it's like to be any other single individual human being regardless of race, gender, nationality, wealth, level of intelligence or physical appearance. Now, I have a real dislike for discrimination too, but my basic philosophy is this - Let's treat each other as individuals and also see ourselves as individuals. I don't really understand people who band together because of things like race or gender and think they're speaking for everybody in that group. Why do they get it into their heads that other people need or desire their help just because they happen to share one particular attribute? I'm a white British male, so what? That doesn't make me feel any particular kinship with other white British males.

You get reports that girls are doing better than boys at school, and endless discussions on what should be done about it. Here's an idea - STOP SPLITTING THE RESULTS BY GENDER. You get reports that black boys are doing worse than white boys, and endless discussions on what should be done about it. Here's an idea - STOP SPLITTING THE RESULTS BY RACE. Then you just have "x percent of children do this well, should we be trying to improve that?" and you're no longer grouping thousands of unique individuals together for praise or criticism based on something as arbitrary as the colour of their skin or whether or not one of their chromosomes has an extra leg. I think it's massively unhelpful to categorise people like this, both for their own self esteem and sense of individual identity. If people believe they belong to an under-performing or under-represented group, or are constantly being told by "well-meaning" leaders in their community how oppressed they are, that's bound to have an effect on how they see their prospects for the future. That's one area in which I think letting the past go is probably preferable to remembering it...

 

[Zin5ki]

It's like people have a scripted way to respond to questions just because they expect those questions to be asked at that time...

A trenchant statement or question. Huzzah for whatsoever it is.

 

[Vashdaman]

It depends on whether we're talking generally, or in specific situations. If it's the former, as I've already said I don't think you can generalize like that because there are very well off white males and desperately poor white males - Even within the "white male" demographic there isn't equality of opportunity. If we're talking specific situations, then it's hard to see how political parties drawing up all female short-lists or racial quotas in the workplace don't disadvantage those who don't meet those requirements - If the powers that be have decided that a position is going to be filled by someone non-white and non-male then the chance of success for someone who is neither of those things diminishes to 0%. And just as not all white males are at an advantage, not all non-white, non-males are disadvantaged either. Who do you think fills the majority of these mandated high-up positions? If you look at their backgrounds, it's still the well off, highly educated ethnic minorities and women who are better off than the poor white males! The black kids on the council estates still stand just as little chance of getting there as they ever did, as do the white kids next door to them.

There will always are some specific situations where a white person may be at an disadvantage, another example could be a white person applying for a job in a company that's mainly black and whose recruiters are also racist. It can happen. But the point is that it's not very common, especially in comparison to the reverse of that situation,which is probably still depressingly more common than we'd like to believe. Of course money and cultural capital are major factors that can change everything. But if we take your example of a white boy and a black boy living next to each other on an estate, while both will probably face blocks and discrimination, the black child will inevitably face extra on top, simply because of his skin colour. Because that's the system will still live in. And it's the same with middle class people, if both a middle class black and white law students apply for a job at one of those top law firms run by 'old boys' or something, it may very well be that the black candidate will have more to prove than the white as soon as they step in the door. But the white candidate won't have to face that extra stigma of race. So, it's not about turning the tables or anything like that, it's about trying to level the playing field. Once the playing fields are level, such strategies won't be necessary any more. I can of course still understand and respect your stance of "no form of discrimination is worth it". I just think that when you live in a society where racism is still prevalent, steps are probably necessary.

I don't really understand people who band together because of things like race or gender and think they're speaking for everybody in that group. Why do they get it into their heads that other people need or desire their help just because they happen to share one particular attribute? I'm a white British male, so what? That doesn't make me feel any particular kinship with other white British males.

I can understand why people would support these policies though: because surely they desire racial justice and equality within our institutions (many of which can be proven to have a long history of racist discrimination). And it's not just ethnic minorities that support and see the need for these things.

Here's an idea - STOP SPLITTING THE RESULTS BY GENDER. You get reports that black boys are doing worse than white boys, and endless discussions on what should be done about it. Here's an idea - STOP SPLITTING THE RESULTS BY RACE

I'm sort of not sure about this either. I mean I can definitely admire and even desire the whole "stop splitting race and gender" thing, and I can definitely understand where your coming from, people are indeed individuals and shouldn't just be lumped in a group. But at the same time, there are clearly still some patterns going on there. If children of Caribbean descent and Bengali children (I can't even remember if it is Bengali now, but anyway...) children are persistently coming at the bottom of our school system, shouldn't we perhaps try and discover what it is that is contributing to it, so we can solve the issues, rather than turn a blind eye completely? I do get your point though, it certainly not helpful to always be bound by external factors like skin or sex, but I suppose the danger is that if the rest of us ignore such factors while there are still many racists and sexists who won't ignore it, won't we just be turning a blind eye to that injustice?

 

[ayase]

I admit and acknowledge that there is far more discrimination goes on than you or I would like - As long as there is any, in fact, that will continue to be the case. But my preferred way of dealing with this is to come down hard on people who are proven to be discriminating rather than trying to create a sort of artificial "enforced equality" which by its very nature can't ever truly be equality. It's like a kind of pre-emptive strike which presumes racism and sexism are already there, rather than dealing with these problems as and when they arise. This idea of "guilty until proven innocent" and taking precautionary measures to make sure crimes aren't committed rather than punishing them after the fact is a problem I have with many of our government's actions in recent years from the Iraq War to the prevalence of CCTV to those same stop and search policies previously mentioned.

Taking a slightly different tack for a moment, do you think there's a way to rehabilitate people of their prejudices? Because really, neither of our approaches actually does anything to change the minds of people who are racist or sexist and believe themselves to be right. It just forces them to either accept people they are prejudiced against into their organisation or face punishment, both of which are likely to do little for them other than feed that resentment we've talked about. I guess if the punishment also removed them from their position that might open the door to more open minded people, but their successor might just hide it better. How do we actually solve the problem of discrimination in the minds of the people? Surely this is what's truly required for a more level playing field?

 

[st_owly (witch)]

To add to this discussion. My boyfriend was filling in job applications yesterday, and apparently under the Disability Discrimination Act, if you have all the required qualifications and skills but are considered disabled, you are guaranteed an interview. My boyfriend and I both consider that to be discriminating against people who are not disabled. Everyone who has the right skills and qualifications for a job should be guaranteed an interview, and it should be those skills and qualifications which guarantee someone an interview, rather than (lack of) a disability.

 

[Vashdaman]

I admit and acknowledge that there is far more discrimination goes on than you or I would like - As long as there is any, in fact, that will continue to be the case. But my preferred way of dealing with this is to come down hard on people who are proven to be discriminating rather than trying to create a sort of artificial "enforced equality" which by its very nature can't ever truly be equality. It's like a kind of pre-emptive strike which presumes racism and sexism are already there, rather than dealing with these problems as and when they arise. This idea of "guilty until proven innocent" and taking precautionary measures to make sure crimes aren't committed rather than punishing them after the fact is a problem I have with many of our government's actions in recent years from the Iraq War to the prevalence of CCTV to those same stop and search policies previously mentioned.

I see where your coming from, but I think the problem is that it's been so very hard to enforce justice and see it administered to those who have been guilty of racial discrimination. And what would you feel about enforcing positive discrimination policies onto companies or institutions that have a clear history racial discrimination. Isn't it a justifiable response in that case? And regardless of ideals, these policies have increased the number the marginalised groups in such institutions as college and higher education. So it's hard not to argue that these policies weren't having positive impact on say the black communities in America. But regardless of the positive effect they were also very easily undone, as was the the case in the California Bakke case, where he lodged a complaint because he felt the reason he was twice unsuccessful in gaining entry into medical school was the school's policy of reserving 16% of it's places for ethnic minorities.

Taking a slightly different tack for a moment, do you think there's a way to rehabilitate people of their prejudices? Because really, neither of our approaches actually does anything to change the minds of people who are racist or sexist and believe themselves to be right. It just forces them to either accept people they are prejudiced against into their organisation or face punishment, both of which are likely to do little for them other than feed that resentment we've talked about. I guess if the punishment also removed them from their position that might open the door to more open minded people, but their successor might just hide it better. How do we actually solve the problem of discrimination in the minds of the people? Surely this is what's truly required for a more level playing field?

Yeah this is a tricky issue. Personally I do think it's possible to rehabilitate, but then I'm pretty quixotic about nearly everything to be honest haha. But I think a radical shift has to take place, and part of that that probably involves having more people of diverse ethnicity in positions where they hold power.

 

[ayase]

Ultimately, I think it boils down to the old equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. I'm a big believer in the former - I don't think there should be barriers to people getting to where they want to be, but I think if we can create that level playing field situation (and I'm not convinced that's even possible) then the outcome should be up to the individual. Whoever gets to the top from that starting position gets to the top, whoever sinks to the bottom sinks to the bottom, their race and gender is unimportant and there can be no justifiable complaints about that. Like I say, whether that situation is actually possible to engineer I don't know, as it would likely involve unpopular things like a 100% inheritance tax (as well as a prohibition on wealth transfer from parents to children while they're still alive - they didn't work for that money so they shouldn't benefit from it) and a basic level of state benefit for everybody.

I dislike positive discrimination because rather than an attempt to create equality of opportunity, it's actually an attempt to create equality of outcome. It says "Well, if women make up 50% of the population and black people make up 3.4%, they should make up 50% and 3.4% of high-up positions in an organisation respectively". This is fallacious thinking, because it presumes firstly there are that many women and black people who want those jobs, secondly that there are that many who are good at those jobs and worst of all, encourages the idea that they are somehow different from other people. Giving undeserving women or minorities positions just because of who they are is no less discriminatory than giving undeserving rich young white men those positions just because of who they are. Now instead of having a situation where neither of those things take place, we have a situation where both are happening.

These policies are implemented because it's easier for the government and other organisations to create an illusion of equality, where rather than truly judging people as individuals and equals they are still only looking at skin-deep attributes like gender and race when identifying diversity and say "oh, that seems like a suitably diverse organisation, great" when really, it's just been engineered to make things look fair. Organisations which have a mandate of furthering the aims of such broad swathes of the population as "women" or "black people" don't help, because they're doing exactly the same thing - Treating a massively varied cross section of society as a whole simply because they happen to share one attribute. Statements like "Black people need more opportunities" or "Women need more opportunities" are ******** because there are those in both of those groups who grow up incredibly privileged and with every opportunity and those who have to fight every step of the way just to achieve a half-way decent life for themselves. Which ones do you think positive discrimination helps get to the top?

 

[teonzo]

Ayase, are you complaining you are not a black woman, daughter of a multimillionaire?



Teo

 

[ayase]

Ayase, are you complaining you are not a black woman, daughter of a multimillionaire?

Every day I get up and I curse the fact that I wasn't born a disabled hermaphroditic albino Native American / Kurd aristocrat Teo. Every day.