Spirited Away & Ghibli: overrated rubbish?

[neptune2venus]

ADMIN NOTE: This thread has been split from the 'Spirited Away 68th in 100 Greatest Family Movies' topic.

its hardly a family film coz no1 knows what it is.

Enough people know about it to vote it in at 68th...

That's nothing when you consider that Spirited Away was voted number 8 in the 100 Greatest Cartoons...

There will always be opinions and disagreements on what is the 'best thing ever'. I must applaud, for I am amazed how highly Spirited Away scored. Though, I don't know how a child can sit still watching the tedium of Spirited Away for so long, that in itself is a miracle! The ugliness would scare the kids away and those are probably the reasons why it didn't go higher - oh and the fact that it's story could be written on the back of a postage stamp!
It's only because it's Ghibli that people watch it - like a brand name - same with GONZO. It's a good thing some people can see through the 'Ghibli Magic' which is Miyazaki brainwashing people for their ££££.
Now before everyone starts flaming me, I'm only stating the truth! :wink:
I don't think many British families will be all huddled around the TV watching 'That Japanese rubbish'. It lacks the X-Factor!
Unfortunately, cartoons of any shape and form still have that stigma for being only for 'kids' which is a shame!

 

[ZAFF]

Yea Neptune you state a good point... But its a no win situation. Cartoons or for kids so we show them Fist Of the North Star.. they say mindless drivel we show them some bubblegum crisis too unrealistic (yet tweetypie and sylvester is realistic huh). Humans are hippocritical of everything and if it doesnt fall into their own specific category its trash.

Look at Monty Python for instance when it first was about it was geek comedy now its hailed as one of the greatest comedy shows ever. Things change people change life changes. When I first played my Super Nintendo it was cool then when I hit about 10-11 it became a geek thing.. Now its retro everybody wants one.

Watch what you want to be what you want to if people want to complain let them. I wouldnt have cared if Spirited didnt even hit it into the top100. It did so it shows anime is slowly weaving into mainstream give it 5 years we might even see a big market for anime. So I can walk into HMV and buy the DVD I want instead of having to import them anwyas ciao for now.

 

[kupocake]

oh and the fact that it's story could be written on the back of a postage stamp!

The majority of stories can be if SA can, and those that can't are usually unneccessary verbose, unpopular and just generally piles of tedious pretentious ********. Taking something as superficial as the written length of a text is missing the point entirely.

It's only because it's Ghibli that people watch it - like a brand name - same with GONZO.

I love the smell of ******** in the morning... but i'll just have to do with an evening dose for now. Problem: Almost all "Ghibli people" got into Ghibli through Spirited Away. Even more Spirited Away fans are evidentally NOT ghibli fans (how else is Spirited Away the only Ghibli film with recognition?)

It's a good thing some people can see through the 'Ghibli Magic' which is Miyazaki brainwashing people for their ££££.

You can see through it? I was under the impression that you were actually just being short-sighted and only seeing as far as your own tastes... that and your natural aversion for anything that someone else may have actually seen or even - shock horror - liked. As for Miyazaki brainwashing people for their money... lol. I'd quite happily let the bugger take my money but europe just isn't a big enough market

And children don't come into the equation btw. Something tells me that they neither cast votes on the Channel 4 site, nor did they vote for Flash Freaking Gordon above Spirited Away.

 

[neptune2venus]

Aha! Such a harsh response! I touched a nerve or a few thousand of them as expected.

Sorry to say, Ghibli is a brand. If someone likes one Ghibli film and then they watch the next one and the next one..Miyazaki is rolling in the money. Yes brainwashed already! It's a concept called brand loyalty that even I can understand! But that's going off topic completely. :wink:

My point being, that a 'normal' family would not watch Spirited Away and hail it as the best thing since Shrek etc. Sadly not.
I have actually watched Ghibli's two most acclaimed films - Spirited Away and Princess Mononoke so I do know what I'm talking about, surprising though it may seem.

how else is Spirited Away the only Ghibli film with recognition?

Exactly! Does that mean everyone likes it? No - thank god for opinions!

but europe just isn't a big enough market

But that's not a good enough excuse. Miyazaki wants world domination.

Something tells me that they neither cast votes on the Channel 4 site, nor did they vote for Flash Freaking Gordon above Spirited Away.

But if I had children I'd take into account which DVDs are not sitting gathering dust! And then I'd vote for which ones I liked myself! Classics will always do better, Spirited Away is too 'new' and not has not had the same cultural impact like Star Wars.

that and your natural aversion for anything that someone else may have actually seen or even - shock horror - liked.

I like mainstream films as much as the next person, what does that have to do with anything? I only state opinions for things I have actually watched, whether good or bad.
Spirited Away seems to be quite the underdog considering it was 'blessed' with an Oscar in comparison to Flash Gordon!!

 

[kupocake]

My point being, that a 'normal' family would not watch Spirited Away and hail it as the best thing since Shrek etc. Sadly not.

That's totally true, but it's hardly clear from your original post that you're even addressing the family issue. For starters, you've quoted my post about the 100 cartoons poll, suggesting that you're simply talking "in general".

I have actually watched Ghibli's two most acclaimed films - Spirited Away and Princess Mononoke so I do know what I'm talking about, surprising though it may seem.

Ghibli's two only acclaimed films though, and that because its only recently entered into the American / European markets. Seeing only two of any studio's films is a pretty poor cross-section to start slinging dirt on said studio.

how else is Spirited Away the only Ghibli film with recognition?

Exactly! Does that mean everyone likes it? No - thank god for opinions!

Relevance? My point had nothing to do whether or not there are people who don't like it and opinions are a useless commodity when everyone has one. There's nothing good about everyone having one at all.

but europe just isn't a big enough market

But that's not a good enough excuse. Miyazaki wants world domination.

No disrespect to the old guy, but something tells me he'll croak it before Ghibli attains even a passable recognition outside of Japan.

Spirited Away seems to be quite the underdog considering it was 'blessed' with an Oscar in comparison to Flash Gordon!!

... which has a barely known soundtrack done by a barely known Rock band whos name escapes me :wink: and also has the benefit of having been released in more than a handful of cinemas, natively in a language that actually makes sense to 99% of the population?

 

[neptune2venus]

opinions are a useless commodity when everyone has one. There's nothing good about everyone having one at all.

But that's the point of forums, so that everyone can have their fair share of opinions! Just because I dislike Ghibli doesn't mean my point is irrelavant. The world would be boring if we all agreed "Ghibli r0xx0rz mah soxx0rz!!oneone111"

he'll croak it before Ghibli attains even a passable recognition outside of Japan.

Is an Oscar not good enough? :wink: To be even known around the world is recognition I'd say!

... which has a barely known soundtrack done by a barely known Rock band whos name escapes me and also has the benefit of having been released in more than a handful of cinemas, natively in a language that actually makes sense to 99% of the population?

I'm aware that Flash Gordon is in English But Spirited Away had global reception via the Oscars whether in another language or not. Remember they dubbed it - and they show it that way on Sky (except Sky Cinema which has the subtitles).

But all of the above has nothing to do whether families watch it. My point was that Spirited Away did well to score that highly! And with an Oscar it should have done better to be honest. It will forever remain in play.com cheap bargain bins. That's the only way people will buy it and how play.com can get rid of it's excess stock.

 

[kupocake]

opinions are a useless commodity when everyone has one. There's nothing good about everyone having one at all.

But that's the point of forums, so that everyone can have their fair share of opinions! Just because I dislike Ghibli doesn't mean my point is irrelavant. The world would be boring if we all agreed "Ghibli r0xx0rz mah soxx0rz!!oneone111"

I didn't really say that with any particular relevence to the topic. I'm just becomming a firm believer that actually, democracy is a bad idea. The thought that moderately to very intelligent people have the same voting power as Chavs, BNP voters and Soap Stars just gets my back up.

I'm aware that Flash Gordon is in English But Spirited Away had global reception via the Oscars whether in another language or not. Remember they dubbed it - and they show it that way on Sky (except Sky Cinema which has the subtitles).

Flash Gordon will have been voted for simply because of Queen's soundtrack. Queen is far, far bigger than a single win for a film in a minor Oscar category. And you know how I feel about anime dubs, and yes, I feel the same way about Chihiro's whiny voice in the dubbed Spirited Away. If its not the Japaneseness of the Japanese audio track putting average joe off, it's a whiney voice that tells you that it "must be kids stuff".

It will forever remain in play.com cheap bargain bins. That's the only way people will buy it and how play.com can get rid of it's excess stock.

It's been on the sales chart far, far too long to be excess stock. What you interpret as a sign that they have to give them away, is more likely something far more positive. Spirited Away is selling well enough that play.com can actually make a profit off it at that competative price.

 

[Paul]

opinions are a useless commodity when everyone has one. There's nothing good about everyone having one at all.

But that's the point of forums, so that everyone can have their fair share of opinions! Just because I dislike Ghibli doesn't mean my point is irrelavant. The world would be boring if we all agreed "Ghibli r0xx0rz mah soxx0rz!!oneone111"

When someone says this though it renders the whole debate pointless. There is no point in arguing if people will always retreat to the simple fact that "it is their opinion"; it suggests that your thoughts are forever frozen in their ways and nothing anyone says can change that fact. This thread has become interesting, but don't ruin it by closing your mind.

 

[Ryo Chan]

hmmmmm fight scene

look best way to solve a fight is via my fav program

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?la ... kupoartist

looks like kupo wins this itme

 

[kupocake]

hmmmmm fight scene

look best way to solve a fight is via my fav program

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?la ... kupoartist

looks like kupo wins this itme

lol. That's kind of unfair though. I've probably had this nick longer than n2v has had hers Hmm, it's kind of dodgy, I guess i've "got around" more than her ^_^

 

[Xui]

I like Ghibli films,
BUT,
I don't particularly like Spirited Away or Mononoke Hime.

Now for most people, I know, those ARE the Ghibli films, but the best ones are the early ones, Porco Rosso, Laputa: Castle in the Sky etc. They really have a good sense of adventure which has been replaced with a more polished finish in the newer releases.

I remember being impressed with the soundtrack for the Japanese Spirited Away (Opera quality singer), which is an amazing thing in a animated production (or any film production these days), but that sort of artistic quality doesn't really make it great FAMILY film.

Spirited Away is a bit too long and complicated for younger kids (I know I was losing interest by the halfway point) and it porbably really only got in as a family film due to it being animated and having a juvenile lead.

There was no way that it was going to beat films like Flash Gordon, which parents these days will remember from their own childhood (nostalgia is a big factor in child-rearing) and is also famous in it's own right (if of dubious quality).

In fact, I would say it was lucky to make it that high in the rating, but Ghibli was unlucky that one of its better films didn't do better.



EDIT--------------------

I just noticed I win on google fight too. yay me

 

[neptune2venus]

When someone says this though it renders the whole debate pointless.

Oh really? So that's why you decided to join in?

This thread has become interesting, but don't ruin it by closing your mind.

Perhaps in your opinion that's the way it's heading.

The thought that moderately to very intelligent people have the same voting power as Chavs, BNP voters and Soap Stars just gets my back up.

But you shouldn't judge a book or (person) for that matter. Everyone has the right to a freedom of speech! Would most chavs vote in the first place? - that is the question!

Queen is far, far bigger than a single win for a film in a minor Oscar category.

Again this does not justify why Spirited Away was voted less. Does something need to be backed by a popular group to be popular? I don't think so.

What you interpret as a sign that they have to give them away, is more likely something far more positive. Spirited Away is selling well enough that play.com can actually make a profit off it at that competative price.

I'm not disagreeing with you that it's selling well, because it is. But it's selling well because it's so cheap. I bet if it was £14.99 it wouldn't be half as popular as it doing now. Of course play.com is losing money, it's a discounted DVD. Discounted items is known as shrinkage to a company and it's for getting rid of excess stock. Interpret as you will.
But I'm all for cheap anime. Infact all anime should be around £10. And to think I actually spent £16.99 on Spirited Away! Miyazaki must be rubbing his hands with glee, in his Harrods cardboard box. :wink:

Lol for that google fight! Shame I didn't win

I guess i've "got around" more than her ^_^

I won't make a comment this time. You got off easy!

I just noticed I win on google fight too. yay me

It cheats I tell you! Cheats! :wink:

 

[kupocake]

Queen is far, far bigger than a single win for a film in a minor Oscar category.

Again this does not justify why Spirited Away was voted less. Does something need to be backed by a popular group to be popular? I don't think so.

Did I say it HAD to be? No. In this case, it is, and it makes all the difference.

Of course play.com is losing money, it's a discounted DVD. Discounted items is known as shrinkage to a company and it's for getting rid of excess stock.

Spirited Away has been selling too well for too long to be excess stock. Its been in discount for at least half a year and in the charts for an equal time (its STILL top right now). Their excess stock would have to run into extremely idiotic numbers to support Spirited Away for that length of time. And does it really matter what price something is if it sells at all? There are hundreds of thousands of DVD titles available for the same price as Spirited Away that I wouldn't touch in a million years, even if they went cheaper, and you can count on many people who chose Spirited Away having the same attitude.

 

[Paul]

When someone says this though it renders the whole debate pointless.

Oh really? So that's why you decided to join in?

Join in what? I haven't stated my opinion on Spirited Away one way or the other, I'm simply saying that by tagging your comments with "it's my opinion" makes this an essentially fruitless battle with no end result. If you want a proper debate then you have to be prepared to lose, otherwise nothing ever changes.

And what are you basing your comments about sales figures on? Nothing I've seen points to Spirited Away being a bad seller (remember the majority of sales occur in high street stores where the RRP is £20), the simple fact that Optimum are releasing Studio Ghibli's entire back catalogue based on this success suggests that it is quite the opposite.

 

[neptune2venus]

If you want a proper debate then you have to be prepared to lose, otherwise nothing ever changes

.
I wasn't intending on 'winning'.
Infact statements like that are just going to provoke some people. From what I can see, I've already said what I can on this topic. Until proven otherwise...

 

[Martin]

Okay, here's my two cents worth...

Spirited Away is as far as I can tell, a good film. There are other films made by the same studio and/or director that are superior in certain aspects, but since it received an Oscar it has had more media coverage and as a result is the first name that springs to many minds when Miyazaki's or Ghibli's names are mentioned.

The reason why there have been so many harsh responses on this thread is that claiming a film director is 'brainwashing' his audience is completely ludicrous. Sure, Ghibli is a brand that has a recogniseable 'look' and merchandise industry as many sutdios have. In the same way a band or group has a signature sound: it's a result of the creative talent who contribute. It is also a business: the said talent do what they do to earn a living - there's no escaping that fact.

However, what sets Ghibli apart from many others and earns them respect is the particular way they go about producing their products. If the product is not to your taste, fair enough. It is important to remember that the studio puts a remarkable amount of effort into making something that is not only going to put butts on seats but to produce a good quality product.

While some may well be jumping on a bandwagon by blindly watching Ghibli films because lots of other people like them, you will probably find that most fans have minds of their own and appreciate the films for what they are: well made, entertaining films.

 

[Andy]

Must agree with Badger here.

I personally think Spirited Away is one of Ghibli's weaker films. It's also one of their most inaccessable for a western audience - I know people that have tried to watch it but just couldn't understand it, because of the large cultural references. But it I think the reason it was did so well was largely because of John Lasseter - apparently the only man Miyazaki would allow to produce it. He no doubt had the ears of the execs after his sucesses with Toy Story and A Bugs Life, and was able to give it the production it deserved. Factor in the Oscar and the critical acclaim, and you've got a surefire hit.

It strikes me that anyone who thinks that Miyazaki is interested in money really doesn't know much about him. In the interviews I've seen (and there aren't many, he's something of a recluse), he's always come across as a kind old man more interested in his little hobbies than making a quick buck. This one in particular gives some good insight to the man and his studio.

The fact that we're getting Ghibli's back catalogue now is surely because they're riding on the wave created by Spirited. I'm hardly complaining -I can't wait for Porco Rosso- but I wonder, if we'd had My Neighbor Totoro when we were kids, would that have gotten a better position in that list?

And while we're on the subject, can someone confirm to me if the new release of Mononke still has the dubtitles? I can't watch the film subbed because of them.

 

[Warmaster]

While spirited away is not plot heavy, it never intended to be. In form, it is little more than a slightly more grown up and japaneseified version of Alice in Wonderland.

However, in just about every respect it is better than the former. I'm not suggesting it is the best Ghibli film, and i do believe many other anime deserve the aclaim that it recieved. However, calling it 'rubbish' certainly is just imature.

Why i like Ghibli films is that they always seem to work on two levels. Firstly, there is the 'overt' level, or if you want, the child's level, which is usually the basic plot, which is aimed at children for the most part. Thats fine. However if this was the only level, Ghibli would be exactly the same as Disney - catering for under 10s only. What makes Ghibli (and indeed, most anime) different from Disney is that they a) don't treat children as idiots, and b) don't just aim at children. Which is the second level, the subtext. Not many children would understand the story of 'growing up' prevalent in spirited away, but even if they didn't, it gives more emotional depth which the children certainly respond to. But for adults, the subtext makes the film a completely different experience, giving a more interlectual level to the films. That is precicely the difference between Disney's 'Alice in wonderland' and Ghibli's 'Spirited away'

Now i won't begin to say Spirited away is the best ghibli, but i won't say that it is the worst either. Of those i have seen (i'm still missing Totoro and Porco from Miyazaki) Castle in the sky is the weakest, simply because it lacks the strong subtext prevalent in other Ghibili. (It does have the nature vs industry thing, but it isn't a film wide thing) and just goes out as an adventure film. Its is better than just about all disney (the story, and the animation and story, are more grown up) but the lack of a decent subtext means that Castle in the sky won't appeal to adults in the way spirited away did.

But going back to the orgional topic. Does Spirited away deserve to be called one of the best family films? Yes, i believe it does. It is a FAMILY film through and through, and most certainly not a CHILDREN'S film. My brother, 31, can't stand watching disney with his son, but he'll quite happily watch Spirited away. True, i think there are other Ghibli, and other anime in general, which should be above Spirited away (i'd instantly put Princess Mononoke higher) but as the present perception of 'anim' amongst the general population, i think it does a pretty good job, and i'm certainly not going to damn it when it has done so much good to the UK and US anime markets. I just hope Howls Moving Castle (which i loved) keeps it up.

 

[kupocake]

A hugely successful first year began with 'Spirited Away', which quickly became the UK's highest selling anime DVD ever selling 180k

 

[neptune2venus]

A hugely successful first year began with 'Spirited Away', which quickly became the UK's highest selling anime DVD ever selling 180k

Just rub it in. :wink: It still doesn't make me like it, or anyone else who dislikes it. Just because it sold x amount of copies does not rate it higher than anything else.
It's just like saying that Shayne from X-factor got to number one because he sold shedloads of copies but that doesn't make his song an instant classic! The song will be instantly forgettable just like Spirited Away - I mean who will actually care to state the above fact? It will have no relevance as anime starts to get more popular, something else will outsell it.