Spirited Away & Ghibli: overrated rubbish?

[kupocake]

Go on believing what you want, but i'm as confident that you're wrong as i'm confident that I really don't give a damn what you think when it's 5 minutes past midnight on Boxing Day.

 

[neptune2venus]

Go on believing what you want, but i'm as confident that you're wrong as i'm confident that I really don't give a damn what you think when it's 5 minutes past midnight on Boxing Day.

Now is that a fact? :wink: Yes, I bet you was eagerly anticipating a reply! I'm confident about that.
It's no fun if we all agreed on the same things anyway!
Besides, I just wonder if there is a soul out there who agrees with me! Perhaps an anti-Ghibli club is just what the doctor ordered. *cough*

 

[Sy]

Well i'm not totally anti-Ghibli but when I saw Spirited Away I didn't enjoy it much at all... In fact I felt the same way about Howl and Mononoke as well.

 

[Mangaminx]

Hmm my view on Ghibli is a mixed one. I love Princess Mononoke and KiKi's Delievery Service for example, but a lot of their other titles leave me rather cold. Spirited Away while being marginally entertaining certainly is not a fantastic anime, its pretty much a simple fantasy film with a plot that isn't all the exciting. I put it in the same league as Nausicaa which I feel while was watchable wasnt a great bit of storytelling or full of interesting characters.

Ghibli tends to be endlessly praised and to me it seems more because the films get critical acclaim in the west. To me this is because go well in the cinemas as kids films rather than because they are outstanding. I'm sure every Ghibli film at least for a while now shall make it to more UK cinemas than any other anime as if you stick "from the makers of Spirited Away" on it people will go see it anyway.

Now obviously Spirited Away is perhaps the most "mainstream" anime of them all seeing as its one of the most purchased by non anime fans (at least in the UK). Being the most popular of something as far as im concerned isnt a good argumentfor quality, as the most popular things that appear on TV here seem to me to be total trash .

 

[hopeful_monster]

Why do I feel like I’ve stumbled into the anime equivalent of the 'creationist vs. evolution' debate? Two very passionate arguments, neither side willing to give any ground to the other, and slightly more problematically no conclusive way of settling it. :roll:
Another problem is that there seems to be several arguments being argued at the same time. One is the relevance of the Channel 4 poll, which are often about as useful as a reindeer at a cricket match (bonus points for 1st person to get the reference), another being the relative merits of Spirited Away as well as the whole Ghibli studio and back catalogue, compared to the anime genre and children’s movies in general.
Personally I’m enjoying reading this thread, though i will not venture my opinions as they will probably be horrendously misinterpreted and misquoted. Also waiting for Godwin's Law comes into effect.

 

[Xui]

Ghibli films have already had references to Italian intra-war faschism and Japanese Imperialism in them.

Godwin's Law seems to affect anime studios too...

Time for the naughty Germans....

 

[Paul]

Ghibli tends to be endlessly praised and to me it seems more because the films get critical acclaim in the west. To me this is because go well in the cinemas as kids films rather than because they are outstanding.

And lets not forget the simple fact that Ghibli is producing the best looking animation in the world right now. Film is obviously a visual genre and I assume a lot of people (myself included) are happy to settle for a beautifully animated movie with slightly cliche story. Miyzaki's genius is that his artwork (not so much narrative skill) speaks to people across generations.

Nausicaa is my favourite Ghibli production, followed fast by Mononoke. I suppose this is because they are the more mature Miyazaki movies, with older protagonists and a harsher visual invention. Spirited Away is a great fairy tale of a movie with a wonderous dream-like visual aesthetic, but the characters didn't completely sweep me away in the same way that those of Nausicaa did.

Miyazaki is (if anything) under-rated, I consider the man an artistic genius who inspires me everytime I see one of his films.

 

[neptune2venus]

Ghibli is producing the best looking animation in the world right now.

Visually, the Ghibli films have had a lot of money spent on them - but in my opinion - films like The Lion King, will always hold the torch for animation and not Spirited Away.

I assume a lot of people (myself included) are happy to settle for a beautifully animated movie with slightly cliche story.

That's just stating you like visuals over story. I'd rather have a good story than strong animation. And so what if it looks like crap compared to these high budgeted films? Spirited Away had no originality in it's story, it was like the Japanese version of Pinocchio, except Chihiro's voice acting was more wooden.

Miyazaki is (if anything) under-rated

And that's why he is one of the better known asscioated with anime, won an Oscar for Spirited Away and plus a Long Time Achievement award in Japan?
There are lots more anime and directors that are underrated in comparison and most don't get the recognition that they deserve unlike Miyazaki.

I consider the man an artistic genius

He may have his own unique style, but when it comes to his storytelling he should hire a script writer! Spirited Away could have been much more entertaining if it had any likeable characters and not had most of the ideas ripped from a more classic story.

 

[Decoy Octopus]

strong words there. Personally, I find Miyazaki's work to be brilliant. Admittedly Spirited Away isn't his best, but whenever you consider the other stuff he's done like My Neighbour Toroto or Mononoke taht's some of the best anime about. Also, i'd admit that his storytelling isn't the best but he's better than most. same way Disney wasn't the best animator but the most well known. Ghibli stuff is best for introducing anime to people.

 

[kupocake]

Why do I feel like I’ve stumbled into the anime equivalent of the 'creationist vs. evolution' debate? Two very passionate arguments, neither side willing to give any ground to the other, and slightly more problematically no conclusive way of settling it. :roll:

Whilst on this side of the arguement, there are only a few verifiable facts, the basis of the flipside still boils down to "I don't like it, therefore everyone else is wrong". If you're offended by that, feel free to prove me wrong.

Just one thought though: despite knowing several people in RL who adore Spirited Away, here, it very much seems that few, if any people actually consider it his best and many of those who've actually watched enough to begin to form an opinion with some basis, actually consider it to be a low point in Miyazaki's career. I think anyone saying Ghibli / Miyazaki is overrated is a loon (sorry N2V, but a whopping 2 out of 15 or 10+ movies is hardly a substantial basis for any judgement, even if you shakily define them as his most well known movies. Though I suspect that online discussions of this type will forever prejudice you against liking Ghiblizaki). But Spirited Away I can definately see where they're coming from. Spirited Away's merits lie in things you either get or you don't. I can easily see that instead of the deep, thoughtful, serene film that some see, others find a story-starved, pretentious and drawn-out film. You either click with the Magic, or you miss the point.

Though I hearby exempt Mangaminx from that, because she found the magic in Kiki's Delivery Service which is basically along the lines of a mass murderer finding god or something.

 

[Xui]

Though I hearby exempt Mangaminx from that, because she found the magic in Kiki's Delivery Service which is basically along the lines of a mass murderer finding god or something.

Is it? I completely missed that part of the film...


I thought it was about a witch with a cute little cat...

 

[Paul]

I assume a lot of people (myself included) are happy to settle for a beautifully animated movie with slightly cliche story.

That's just stating you like visuals over story. I'd rather have a good story than strong animation. And so what if it looks like crap compared to these high budgeted films? Spirited Away had no originality in it's story, it was like the Japanese version of Pinocchio, except Chihiro's voice acting was more wooden.

Ever heard the phrase "a picture paints a thousand words"? I'm not saying I like "visuals over story" all the time, but some anime artists (and remember anime is first and foremost a visual medium) are capable of expression through their work alone. My point was that when you have a talent like Miyazaki, dialogue is hardly needed, he expresses his stories and emotions through his artwork and to this end, you either get it or you don't; it's a matter of taste.

And that's why he is one of the better known asscioated with anime, won an Oscar for Spirited Away and plus a Long Time Achievement award in Japan?

For me Miyazaki is beyond the animation genre and when I say he is underrated, I am saying that he should be recognized as one of the greatest movie directors of all time, outside of his nationality or film genre.

 

[neptune2venus]

feel free to prove me wrong.

Already did dear. :wink:

sorry N2V, but a whopping 2 out of 15 or 10+ movies is hardly a substantial basis for any judgement

Maybe not, but the two I watched (Spirited Away and Princess Mononoke) were his highest acclaimed films and that is good enough judgement for me - I did not like either and I'm certainly not wasting more money on the rest of his collection - unless they went all budget. I assume they will eventually.

Though I suspect that online discussions of this type will forever prejudice you against liking Ghiblizaki

Well I hardly call this a balanced discussion as 95% won't agree with me. It's not my fault that most have a biased (Miyazaki's brainwashing) impression of his films! I don't hate overrated things, I just think people are ignoring my valid points. *cough*

Spirited Away's merits lie in things you either get or you don't.

I did get it. But I'm just pointing out the harsh facts!

others find a story-starved, pretentious and drawn-out film.

Lol, I wonder who this is directed to? But you must see it that way too if your mentioning it - as I can see why people would like it.

You either click with the Magic, or you miss the point.

The only thing 'magic' was the stop button.

I hearby exempt Mangaminx

I'm sorry you don't hold me with that high of a regard! :wink:

which is basically along the lines of a mass murderer finding god or something.

Miss out the 'God' part and you get Mangaminx! Lol! *gets her flame shield*

dialogue is hardly needed, he expresses his stories and emotions through his artwork

Is that why I felt so compelled to switch it off? and yes I do 'get' it for the 'final' time.

 

[kupocake]

feel free to prove me wrong.

Already did dear. :wink:

I'm sorry, I must have missed it under your constant and mindless bashing. You don't actually have a point beyond "Oh it was boring. I don't like it. People who like it are just wrong" do you? Your last post just seems to go even futher to proving that.

 

[Martin]

I'm one of the 95% I suppose! I still refuse to believe that a film director is 'brainwashing his audience - using such words is immature and quite frankly laughable. There's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion btw - if nothing else it will help clarify other people's views and we might all learn something that we didn't before.

N2V's problem seems to lie in that he/she cannot accept the opposing point of view. If you don't like a film, that is your opinion: nothing more. Perfectly valid but most definitely NOT a fact. I could say that Eric Clapton is one of the greatest guitatrists ever. That's an opinion. If I said he was one of the most popular guitarists ever, that's a fact because it can be supported by evidence. At times like this people seem to forget the fundamental difference between opinion and fact: if you want to say that Miyazaki is 'brainwashing' his audiences, there's nothing wrong with holding that OPINION but interviews with both him and his colleagues do not support this view so it is not a fact.

Your points do matter because it is your opinion which is AS VALID as everyone else's. If not enough people are 'on your side' for the purposes of 'balancing' an argument that can't be helped.

I think we should all agree to disagree here before things start to get nasty!

 

[neptune2venus]

I still refuse to believe that a film director is 'brainwashing his audience - using such words is immature and quite frankly laughable.

It's called sarcasm, and it's supposed to inject a bit of humour into the topic. If you take it seriously then I feel sorry for you.

N2V's problem seems to lie in that he/she cannot accept the opposing point of view.

We wouldn't be having this topic if I agreed with everyone. Infact, it's probably doing the forum a bit of good!

you want to say that Miyazaki is 'brainwashing' his audiences

Well considering that I really can't see anyone else as 'extreme' as I am with opinions, then yes!

Your points do matter because it is your opinion which is AS VALID as everyone else's.

And so everyone else goes 'Yes I agree...BUT.' Or so I wish, because this forum is just a tad biased towards Ghibli. Though I'll expect some comments to prove that this is a just and non-biased anime forum. I don't agree with that. In my opinion!

If not enough people are 'on your side' for the purposes of 'balancing' an argument that can't be helped.

That's true. So this topic cannot be helped but biased can it?

I think we should all agree to disagree here before things start to get nasty!

But no one will get nasty! I'm a nice person really. :wink:

 

[Xui]

Alas, all the dabate in the world will not change the fundamental, single most important fact:

"Miyazaki... said he has earned enough money to last him a lifetime."
Los Angeles Times, 24/07/1996

Also on the point of brainwashing:

"[The Disney-Tokuma Distribution alliance] will expand 'as far as our creative energies will take us' "
BVHE president Michael Johnson

"Disney's 'extensive and effective distribution system will
make it possible for his brilliant work to received by tens of
millions of people.' "
Joe Roth, chairman of Walt Disney Studios

Ability and desire to reach the masses?

"Miyazaki said in an interview last year that recent Disney animations lacked "decency."
New York Times, 24 July 1996

"Miyazaki, who is known for challenging social issues through his work, has criticized the content of Disney's animated offerings in the past."
The Hollywood Reporter, 24 July 1996

"if Disney tries to touch in the film making, that will be problematic. Some of the staffs are worrying about it."
Miyazaki

Social engineering through the media?

And finally (and to compare to the first comment):

"Disney is disposing videos for cheap. We aren't selling videos of our own films for cheap."
Miyazaki


A few 'facts' just because no one else seems to be on Neptune's side...

 

[Shinn]

Mmh...

If i really had to say I liked a lot "Spirited Away"... Yes, not like Laputa or Mononoke Hime but still I liked it a lot... Really I've missed to watch Porco Rosso (I don't find it... ) and Totoro from Ghibli and I'm waiting for Howl's Moving Castle... And really I had enjoyed all Ghibli Movies I had watched... Really there is no much to say, I like the just as I like chinese food...

 

[kupocake]

Edit: Shinn cut in, this is a response to Xui, so sorry Shinn

I don't mean to be rude, but it's kind of hard to follow your arguement. You seem to switch between having header titles for the quotes, to having footer titles somewhere, but I can't tell. I wrote a long reply accusing you of basically not understanding your own quotes and the realised that perhaps you actually understood them perfectly, it just doesn't come across that way.

Most critically, where is your point about "Brainwashing"? The quote that follows is hardly telling us that Disney are going to start inserting subliminal frames into Ghibli releases forcing kids to go out and buy Totoro happy meals. It has a lot to do "reaching the masses", which then appears to header the next section... which has zero to do with "reaching the masses" and something to do with social engineering...

And when we're talking about Social Engineering, what is exactly your point? You're the first person to mention it in the thread, so what is it proving? All it proves is that Miyazaki is commited to discussing social issues in his work, and that he feels that Disney comes short in that area. The last quote is in reference to Miyazaki's utter disdain for having his work edited to suit what Disney thinks is the intended audience. This harks back to "The warriors of the wind" version of Nausicaa, which mutilated the movie in an attempt to target an audience. Again, what exactly is your point? This isn't about social engineering, it's about Miyazaki's right to have his works uncensored, and given "as is" to worldwide audiences. If anything, this helps OUR side of the arguement, because he's willing to sacrifice western understanding of Ghibli films for faithful transmission.

As for your first and last quotes, I interpret them in a completely different way, especially as they're likely to have been taken out of context. Miyazaki earning enough money to last him a lifetime? When people say that, it means that they're content. That just suggests that he made Mononoke, Spirited Away and Howl's Moving Castle for their own sakes, or his love of creating animation: anything but more money, which he freely admited to having too much of years ago. The last quote? Lets have the rest of the context:

Also he criticised the Disney's business that "Disney is disposing
videos for cheap. We aren't selling videos of our own films for
cheap." He says that "I think Tokuma sold our films for plenty of
amount already. Though I don't know whether the films sell well in
U.S., I wish we concentrate only on the film making."]

Oh the beauty of Japanese translation work. Can you follow his arguement? No, neither can I. Seems to say both extremes of the arguement. Needless to say, I think it's an extremely dodgy place to get a "fact" from.

edit2: Just to say that regardless of my views about the quotes you presented, you did well to find them

 

[neptune2venus]

Thanks Xui for all your hard work! I didn't know about any of these quotes - but it just proves the point even more so!

I think I'll cut into this argument :wink:

Now to kupoartist!

The facts are laid bare - even if it's taken out of context it doesn't mean that it was said at all. Miyazaki probably has enough money to build himself a gold plated Harrod's cardboard box!

that Disney are going to start inserting subliminal frames into Ghibli releases

No Miyazaki will be doing that - remember he doesn't want Disney to dare touch his 'masterpieces!'

it's about Miyazaki's right to have his works uncensored, and given "as is" to worldwide audiences.

The right to world domination! If anything was going to be cut out of his work, it would probably benefit us all. One of the main points between a good and bad film is how it is edited. I agree if they cut out a five minute section with X, walking on a 'beautiful' landscape with 'zomg' animation, if it does nothing to the plot.

he's willing to sacrifice western understanding of Ghibli films for faithful transmission.

He isn't a matyr yet. He'd need to choke on his own gold first! Besides, that just goes to show how selfish he is. I wouldn't mind if something was changed, to make the respective audience in the country understand it better.

I think it's an extremely dodgy place to get a "fact" from.

Welcome to the internet!