Popular US voice actor(s) are accused of showering underaged fans with unwanted affection

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#21
I do find it interesting that this has brought about a discussion of people’s behaviour at cons and the inappropriateness associated with some of it.

Perhaps going forward this will change the way that fans interact with industry reps at these cons, with organisers possibly enforcing stricter rules in regards to physical contact and consent?

(I do apologise if this point sounds a bit clumsy in its wording.)
 

ayase

State Alchemist
#22
Agree with all of that @Rui (you're a kinder person than I, while I can't necessarily bring myself to care about other people in quite the same way, I recognise it's good that someone does) but while I'm being brutally honest and not caring what anybody thinks, I think I'd also recognise that strength can work the other way too, and that some people might quite like being in those situations that others would feel unsafe in. While it's not right for people to feel pressured to do things they don't want to do, they also shouldn't feel pressured the other way to not do things they do want to do. There is no hard and fast rule for everyone, especially where sexuality is concerned.

I guess what I'm saying is that if (hypothetically) some confident, strong willed teenage fan wanted to have a one night stand with some famous person twice their age, or if somebody in cosplay would actually like to be felt up by strangers, I don't really think there should be anyone telling them they shouldn't, or that that would be wrong in principle. I wouldn't want to go so far in trying to prevent harassment that it starts to become kink shaming.
 
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Rui

Karamatsu Boy
Administrator
#23
I guess what I'm saying is that if (hypothetically) some confident, strong willed teenage fan wanted to have a one night stand with some famous person twice their age, or if somebody in cosplay would actually like to be felt up by strangers, I don't really think there should be anyone telling them they shouldn't, or that that would be wrong in principle. I wouldn't want to go so far in trying to prevent harassment that it starts to become kink shaming.
While I have no moral objection to a strong-willed, emotionally mature teen having a glorious night of abandon with a powerful actor if that's what they genuinely want to do and they're making that decision in full knowledge of what it means, in that situation the actor has a responsibility to look out for their partner too. (And indeed, the emotionally mature teen needs to look out for the actor if they're the one in the position of power for some reason.) This is where it's breaking down. The mature person, in these situations, needs to step up and take extra responsibility to compensate for a partner who may not be able to take full responsibility themselves. Not doing so is leading to bitter resentment and powerlessness building up on both sides later on.

Since it's generally known that most people aren't always at their most rational when presented with an opportunity for something fun and sexy in the immediate future, the laws and norms of our society are supposed to be in place to guide them into making the right decision. Our laws are an outdated mess on a lot of fronts but the intentions behind them are usually solid as a rough guideline, and having informed consent as the latest fashion is a social norm I can really get behind. If someone wants to live out their public groping fantasy at a con, wearing a sign openly and unambiguously inviting people to do it is way better than having people assume that they want it just because it's hot and they thought that cosplaying a Gurren Lagann character would be fun. (The fetishist should probably try their idea at a more suitable place than a public anime convention frequented by kids and families too if they want to avoid frowns for their uninhibited life choices - it doesn't take much for socially awkward otaku to get the wrong idea and alternative lifestyle gatherings are very much something that should be allowed to exist.)

There's also the matter of the scale of consequences. A person who misses out on indulging a kinky fantasy missed out on something cool - that sucks for them. A person who has to defend themselves for years - from doxings and verbal abuse from crazy keyboard warriors who automatically hate them for their gender - has missed out on a lot more. It's often long term social suicide to speak out yet bottling it up is just as painful. I feel that the latter group is in need of more protection than the former.

If we had a culture where people genuinely felt empowered to stand up for themselves, we'd see a lot less of these problems both ways. I do agree that there is a problem with people lashing out mindlessly at things which genuinely don't hurt anyone - I just don't see it as being as bad. As a kink-having individual myself, I'm reasonably sure that kink-shamers can't hurt people who operate from solid foundations of self-respect.

R
 

ayase

State Alchemist
#24
If we had a culture where people genuinely felt empowered to stand up for themselves, we'd see a lot less of these problems both ways. I do agree that there is a problem with people lashing out mindlessly at things which genuinely don't hurt anyone - I just don't see it as being as bad. As a kink-having individual myself, I'm reasonably sure that kink-shamers can't hurt people who operate from solid foundations of self-respect.
Absolutely. Though I'm not really sure those guiding social norms you mentioned are of much help in this regard. If 2010s social norms had been the social norms in the 1940s my 22 year old grandfather would probably have been beaten up by paedophile hunting vigilantes and my 15 year old grandmother convinced she was a victim (when she was most definitely the dominant partner in that relationship) rather than them going on to have one of the most enviable 60 year relationships I can think of.

I know the power politics of sex and relationships is another hot button topic at the moment, it is a slightly tangential topic from this one but once again one where I find myself despairing over the entire nature of the debate, which I think is founded on completely faulty assumptions about, y'know, the nature of human beings. Partnerships of equals are great in the rare instances they happen, but in the vast majority of cases there's going to be a dominant and a submissive partner - One of the people in a given relationship (and by no means necessarily a male or the older party - more terrible assumptions a lot of people like to make) is in all likelihood going to be more clever, mature or savvy than the other. And what's more, that appears to be the way a lot of people like it. I'm in no way aiming this particular point at you Rui, but as it pertains to the anime and manga community, I see so many people freaking out over these "unequal relationships" even in fiction when for most people in reality, it's perfectly normal to the point it would probably never even enter their minds.
 

HdE

Comic Book Guy
#27
Just an FYI, peeps

Nobody should ever cite or regard Bounding Into Comics as a source of credible information. They're an outlet for heavily biased coverage pandering to an especially unsavoury crowd pushing a very distasteful agenda. This is a point of view that comes from somebody working in comics, who has seen the consequences of their nonsense as it affects industry insiders. It's a trash column. Take anything you read there with a large dose of salt. Say, about the size of a major continent.

That is all.
 
#28
Just an FYI, peeps

Nobody should ever cite or regard Bounding Into Comics as a source of credible information. They're an outlet for heavily biased coverage pandering to an especially unsavoury crowd pushing a very distasteful agenda. This is a point of view that comes from somebody working in comics, who has seen the consequences of their nonsense as it affects industry insiders. It's a trash column. Take anything you read there with a large dose of salt. Say, about the size of a major continent.

That is all.
What agenda do they have and I think vic doesn't understand that some people may feel uncomfortable and I don't think he's acting like a pedo and what gets me why these fans of his wait for years and then run to the media when what they they should told him stop there and then and that they felt uncomfortable and next thing I'm going to say is going to upset people but not my intention is maybe they want their first 15 minutes of fame.
 

Rui

Karamatsu Boy
Administrator
#29
I know the power politics of sex and relationships is another hot button topic at the moment, it is a slightly tangential topic from this one but once again one where I find myself despairing over the entire nature of the debate, which I think is founded on completely faulty assumptions about, y'know, the nature of human beings. Partnerships of equals are great in the rare instances they happen, but in the vast majority of cases there's going to be a dominant and a submissive partner - One of the people in a given relationship (and by no means necessarily a male or the older party - more terrible assumptions a lot of people like to make) is in all likelihood going to be more clever, mature or savvy than the other. And what's more, that appears to be the way a lot of people like it. I'm in no way aiming this particular point at you Rui, but as it pertains to the anime and manga community, I see so many people freaking out over these "unequal relationships" even in fiction when for most people in reality, it's perfectly normal to the point it would probably never even enter their minds.
There are definitely some social norms which deserve challenging, and I think they should always be norms rather than rules. In this case, there's nothing inherently wrong with a mature teen dating an older person, but both parties - and especially the one with more life experience - should be mindful of the potential for discomfort. In the same way that a very dominant person should think to check that their partner is happy even if they are the same age; so many stories of resentment start with a misunderstanding about these boundaries. I imagine that that even back then your grandad would probably would have felt some consideration for his wife's age and from what you say, she was strong-minded enough to make it work so the situation wasn't ever a problem. Respect to them. If more people could be secure in themselves and their relationships the world would be a much happier place.

Equal relationships are really important to me personally but I agree that a lot of people prefer a different arrangement. The important thing is that the submissive person is comfortable and happy. In any case, I'll leave this topic to the relationships thread where it has migrated!

In Vic's case he was always initiating (not conjecture, he says as much himself) and told that he was making people feel uncomfortable on numerous occasions, and from all accounts he keeps trying to shift the blame to the people whose boundaries he disregarded even now. It's hard to see more than a decade of repeating the same behaviour in a positive light.

I think vic doesn't understand that some people may feel uncomfortable
He's 56 years old and has been warned about the behaviour before. At some point, he has to take responsibility for his own actions and move away from the excuse of innocence. Which is definitely the excuse he is sticking with - his apologies are laser targeted to paint him as a sweet soul who needs protection from his army of hardcore teen fans.

Even if all of the people involved are lying about their discomfort simultaneously - which I very much doubt, given the widely-known consequences of speaking up in this environment - his casual dehumanisation of con staff is legendary at this point (someone on this very forum attested to similar observations). And a lot of the people speaking out are just as famous as he is. People who are rude to their lessers don't tend to be people in the habit of respecting others. It makes perfect sense that cons wouldn't want him there if he makes people feel horrible and verbally abuses their staff at the same time. Guests are invited to events to make their attendees happier, not miserable.

R
 
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ayase

State Alchemist
#30
Communication is absolutely an important thing, not just in relationships but in society in general, and that’s why I’m willing to share my opinions even when they might risk upsetting people. There are a lot of places where that’s just not worth the bother any more because people will make assumptions about you, pigeonhole you as belonging to a particular group of people you may not agree with at all and shout you down for doing so (pretty much any social media website for example, and a fair few forums as well). At least here, and at least with you @Rui I can find respectful discussion over disagreements, and I’m thankful for that. There needs to be more of it. I’m not here (or anywhere) to be liked*, but it’s nice when friends listen to each other even when they disagree.

People’s lives, circumstances and experiences feed into their views, and sometimes it’s not easy to change. Sometimes I think it’s near impossible - I’m not a trusting person. My first instincts are not to believe people until I can ascertain the truth myself, and in so many of these kinds of cases it is impossible for me to do so. Others are more inclined to believe people, and that’s okay too. I don’t look down on anyone for that, that’s just people being individuals with different perspectives, personalities and values.

In this particular situation, I’d still prefer to leave it to the people involved to sort out rather than weigh in - My opinions are not going to change anything. People have freedom of association and if they want to distance themseleves from Vic based on what they themselves have observed or the testimony of others that is absolutely their choice and they shouldn’t face criticism for doing so. At the same time, I’d reserve the right to not take sides in any individual encounters people have described (and genuinely so, I’m not personally a fan of Mr. Mignogna and am certainly not inclined to believe him over anyone else, but nor an I inclined to believe anyone else over him).

There’s also a world of difference for me between inappropriate behaviour and criminal acts, and the way each should be tackled. If someone is behaving inappropriately but not criminally, then it’s up the people around them to make them realise that - If they can’t then yes, by all means stop associating with them. It seems like this is what’s already happened in this case, so I’m not really understanding the need for further shaming other than for reasons of sensationalist “journalism”.

*which is just as well, this thread alone has bludgeoned my likes-to-posts ratio like nothing since the system was implemented
 
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#31
Communication is absolutely an important thing, not just in relationships but in society in general, and that’s why I’m willing to share my opinions even when they might risk upsetting people. There are a lot of places where that’s just not worth the bother any more because people will make assumptions about you, pigeonhole you as belonging to a particular group of people you may not agree with at all and shout you down for doing so (pretty much any social media website for example, and a fair few forums as well). At least here, and at least with you @Rui I can find respectful discussion over disagreements, and I’m thankful for that. There needs to be more of it. I’m not here (or anywhere) to be liked*, but it’s nice when friends listen to each other even when they disagree.

People’s lives, circumstances and experiences feed into their views, and sometimes it’s not easy to change. Sometimes I think it’s near impossible - I’m not a trusting person. My first instincts are not to believe people until I can ascertain the truth myself, and in so many of these kinds of cases it is impossible for me to do so. Others are more inclined to believe people, and that’s okay too. I don’t look down on anyone for that, that’s just people being individuals with different perspectives, personalities and values.

In this particular situation, I’d still prefer to leave it to the people involved to sort out rather than weigh in - My opinions are not going to change anything. People have freedom of association and if they want to distance themseleves from Vic based on what they themselves have observed or the testimony of others that is absolutely their choice and they shouldn’t face criticism for doing so. At the same time, I’d reserve the right to not take sides in any individual encounters people have described (and genuinely so, I’m not personally a fan of Mr. Mignogna and am certainly not inclined to believe him over anyone else, but nor an I inclined to believe anyone else over him).

There’s also a world of difference for me between inappropriate behaviour and criminal acts, and the way each should be tackled. If someone is behaving inappropriately but not criminally, then it’s up the people around them to make them realise that - If they can’t then yes, by all means stop associating with them. It seems like this is what’s already happened in this case, so I’m not really understanding the need for further shaming other than for reasons of sensationalist “journalism”.

*which is just as well, this thread alone has bludgeoned my likes-to-posts ratio like nothing since the system was implemented
It just doesn't sit right with me because unless he's arrested charge and convicted by a court of law his innocent until proven guilty but the Internet linch mob know better then the law because he's automatically guilty in their eyes.
 

IncendiaryLemon

Captain Karen
AUKN Staff
#32
It just doesn't sit right with me because unless he's arrested charge and convicted by a court of law his innocent until proven guilty but the Internet linch mob know better then the law because he's automatically guilty in their eyes.
I mean the insurmountable amount of physical evidence in the form of photographic evidence and a metric ton of people who have come forward with accounts that can be backed up by others is enough, even in light of the courts, is enough to condemn him. It's not like people have just made this up out of thin air and are deeming him guilty on nothing.
 
#33
The bigger problem these cases are hard to convict. Due to the problem with statements I couldn't stay I was raped in court to the person who did it. And these cases take years Harvey Weinstein hasn't even got a trial date yet.
There is a point where evidence becomes too hard to ignore, people have said he made them uncomfortable and the people have friends who confirm their story. And sexual harassment or abuse of power is even harder to convict. In America where the president can pick supreme court judges the "Impartial" Arbiter I would doubt the impartiality of the justice system.

FUNI needs to take more responsibility secretly changing staff is a joke. DBS Broly has him in the title role and they've said jack ****. I wouldn't see the dub rn thank god the JP audio will available.
 
#34
There's criminality, and there's inappropriate behaviour. If you're male, go to work and treat every woman in that place like a secretary and expect them to make your tea, you won't be arrested, but you will be fired.

So the question here really is, do you want Vic Mignogna as a brand ambassador? In the current climate, will employing him make you money or lose it? With companies it's always about the bottom line.
 
#35
I mean the insurmountable amount of physical evidence in the form of photographic evidence and a metric ton of people who have come forward with accounts that can be backed up by others is enough, even in light of the courts, is enough to condemn him. It's not like people have just made this up out of thin air and are deeming him guilty on nothing.
I'm sorry but someone feeling uncomfortable does not mean the person doing it makes them a pedo or sexual harasser and remember the internet is some times like one big echo chamber.
 
#36
It kinda does. Because CONSENT...
These people have to be responsible when they have power, making your fans uncomfortable is an abuse of that power. May not cross that sexual harassment line but its wrong plain and simple.

And as JPT Said you don't want that type of person to represent your band may it be Con, or Anime dubbing studio.

And to the echo chamber thing I wouldn’t be hearing your comment if it was an echo chamber and the opinion on this has been quite split. So I am going to disagree even this thread which wasn’t till after he lost the role has been quite split.
 
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IncendiaryLemon

Captain Karen
AUKN Staff
#37
I'm sorry but someone feeling uncomfortable does not mean the person doing it makes them a pedo or sexual harasser and remember the internet is some times like one big echo chamber.
I mean kissing people without asking who are underage actually does make you a sexual harasser and/or peado. If I went and grabbed a 14 year old and kissed her, I don't imagine her or anyone would take too kindly to it. Just because he's famous doesn't make it different.
 
#38
I mean kissing people without asking who are underage actually does make you a sexual harasser and/or peado. If I went and grabbed a 14 year old and kissed her, I don't imagine her or anyone would take too kindly to it. Just because he's famous doesn't make it different.
I'm sorry but abusers dont go out in public sexual abuse a person in front of people because it happens behind closed doors doors with threats of harm so I dressage with that.but he is being over friendly with people he does not know.
 

IncendiaryLemon

Captain Karen
AUKN Staff
#39
I'm sorry but abusers dont go out in public sexual abuse a person in front of people because it happens behind closed doors doors with threats of harm so I dressage with that.but he is being over friendly with people he does not know.
They don't do it in public because they can't get away with it. Vic clearly can, and has been, because he is in a position of power. His celebrity gives him a level of immunity in a lot of ways. Why do you think Hollywood was/is riddled with this sort of stuff?
 
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