Politics

fabricatedlunatic said:
My view is that, as CG says, the authorties will be concerning themselves with the strongest material and youngest looking characters. But where the line is drawn between illegal and legal, and who will make that judgement and on what basis, remains unclear.

At the moment, it's unclear. But that doesn't mean this law can't work in theory with a qualified film censor deciding whether something depicts children or not. I agree that, at least at first, it seems silly to ban loli/shouta because there is no victim and nothing at all suggests that viewing porn is a "gateway" to sexual crimes. It's entirely a matter of things being in good taste or not. As a society, we have the power to decide that this is in extremely bad taste and that we don't want an industry based around such distaste forming.

Zin5ki said:
A Lucky Star hentai parody may depict a character who is in fact 18 years of age, but who arguably appears prepubescent.

The characters in Lucky Star are, objectively, pre-pubescent in appearance.
 
Project-2501 said:
But its very funny seeing the misguided knee-jerk reactions from some of you lot ;)

It takes one lawyer and eleven idiots to set a dangerous precedent. If this law is abused just once, it could mean disaster for comic books.

Well, except for Marvel's "Marvel Adventures" line.
 
Ok, so it has not been established that non-photographic child pornography is a gateway to actual crime. Why criminalise it? Do you think 3 years on conviction/under solemn procedure is the appropriate punishment? Fine, ECHR does in fact say "for the protection of health or morals", but how the hell does that justify a 3 year sentence? Besides, UK legislation on sexual matters is a mess. It is way too moralistic. Its currently 2009, not 1909.

Lets just put it this way: 'Is it a child protection law aimed at tackling child abuse?' yes it is 'Is there academic proof that the proposed measures would tackle child abuse?' no there isn't. So what are we talking about? If a law does not fulfil its purpose, there is no need for it.
 
Derfel said:
Lets just put it this way: 'Is it a child protection law aimed at tackling child abuse?' yes it is 'Is there academic proof that the proposed measures would tackle child abuse?' no there isn't. So what are we talking about? If a law does not fulfil its purpose, there is no need for it.

A completely fair point, I have to concede. I guess this law really doesn't make sense, then :s
 
CitizenGeek said:
Derfel said:
Lets just put it this way: 'Is it a child protection law aimed at tackling child abuse?' yes it is 'Is there academic proof that the proposed measures would tackle child abuse?' no there isn't. So what are we talking about? If a law does not fulfil its purpose, there is no need for it.

A completely fair point, I have to concede. I guess this law really doesn't make sense, then :s

Im not sure, is this CG backing/mellowing down..or CG just being CG?
 
Derfel, somebody needs to sneak you into the House of Lords.
(It shouldn't be too hard- all you need is certain attire and the ability not to get to the point.)
 
Zin5ki said:
Derfel, somebody needs to sneak you into the House of Lords.
(It shouldn't be too hard- all you need is certain attire and the ability not to get to the point.)

I have a dodgy Italian mafia sort of suit my parents forced upon me years back.

On a serious note, I have more faith in the Lords than the Commons. They are, after all, moderately competent.
 
CitizenGeek said:
fabricatedlunatic said:
My view is that, as CG says, the authorties will be concerning themselves with the strongest material and youngest looking characters. But where the line is drawn between illegal and legal, and who will make that judgement and on what basis, remains unclear.

At the moment, it's unclear. But that doesn't mean this law can't work in theory with a qualified film censor deciding whether something depicts children or not. I agree that, at least at first, it seems silly to ban loli/shouta because there is no victim and nothing at all suggests that viewing porn is a "gateway" to sexual crimes. It's entirely a matter of things being in good taste or not. As a society, we have the power to decide that this is in extremely bad taste and that we don't want an industry based around such distaste forming.
"I HAVE THE POWER!" ;)

This whole idea of society deciding what is and isn't "tasteful" or "decent" doesn't sit well with me at all as I've said before in comments about our wonderful BBFC. Different people have different ideas of what is or isn't acceptable. Some of them - Mediawatch, for example, are very prudish and overzealous. I for instance, don't think it damages children to see naked people. If anything I think it probably stops them developing complexes about the human body, but others think that would be horrific and wrong. We are both part of society, so who should decide?

If it's the majority then we should also be kicking out all the asylum seekers, bringing back the death penalty and worshipping Saint Jade of the Big Brother (after crucifying her first). If it's a minority then it's unfair. Which is why the only sane way of deciding what is decent or tasteful is for each of us to decide that for ourselves.
 
Yes, it is the typical clash between human rights and democracy.
Democracy is equated with a human rights regime very often, when in fact, they are not the same.
While in a democracy, the word of the majority is what counts, the majority does whatever the hell it wants.
On the other hand, in a human rights regime, there are certain rights and liberties with which the 'angry mob' -using ayase's wording- cannot, or dare not meddle with. Of course, this means the representative of the majority, the government.

The UK, like all other EU countries, strikes a balance between the two systems, albeit a very, very poor one.

In the case of a system leaning towards human rights, matters are mostly decided objectively, namely, whether it poses harm to anyone in any way.
Provided it does not, its ok.
Whereas in the case of a democracy bias... well, you see what's happening, right? :D

I personally am for human rights. Actually, my views seem to be identical with that of ayase. I don't see why should anything harmless be criminalised, solely because a bunch of pissed 'citizens' disapprove of it... for no real reason. Especially considering that under modern EU law, under the ECHR namely, it is thought that a person does not have a right not to be offended by something.

Just an example:

There is a gay procession in your town. Just for the sake of argument, lets say you are homophobic. You may feel offended by the procession, but you have no right not to be. There is no law compelling the organisers of the procession not to offend you.

The case is similar with about everything non-harmful.

Bah. That was a long rant lol, sorry, my second personality, the rabid liberal took over again.
 
I've read some of the stuff on your website Derfel, and while I won't say you seem to have your head screwed on right as it might sound a bit superior of me... I'll say we both seem to have our heads screwed on a similar way instead. ;)

Heading back for a minute to the political compass which was discussed earlier (this seems to have become an all purpose politics thread after all) the y axis seems to become more important to me and the x axis less important every day. It's my own freedom as an individual I care about now more than any idea of socialism or capitalism. I'd probably be happy if it was The Dalai Lama or Ayn Rand in charge, as long as it meant I get to make my own decisions about what to do with my life without interference from others.
 
ayase said:
I've read some of the stuff on your website Derfel, and while I won't say you seem to have your head screwed on right as it might sound a bit superior of me... I'll say we both seem to have our heads screwed on a similar way instead. ;)
Great minds thing alike, as they say. :D Ahh, who cares about formality, its an informal forum anyway. I mean, we don't address each other as -dono. Ok, I admit that was a lame joke.

ayase said:
Heading back for a minute to the political compass which was discussed earlier (this seems to have become an all purpose politics thread after all) the y axis seems to become more important to me and the x axis less important every day. It's my own freedom as an individual I care about now more than any idea of socialism or capitalism. I'd probably be happy if it was The Dalai Lama or Ayn Rand in charge, as long as it meant I get to make my own decisions about what to do with my life without interference from others.

A suitable leader who knows how to STFU, GTFO and FOAD. Putting the joke aside, yeah, I agree with you 100%.
 
The Online Purchasing of Goods and Services (Age Verification) Bill will import an age verification, if passed, for goods ordered on the internet. This means that very soon, you may find your web purchases 'policed', in the sense that technically, anything above 'U' could require verification.

Here is an extract from the bill:

1 Provision of age-restricted goods and services

(1) A company, organisation or individual which is engaged in the sale or
provision by means of any electronic communications networks of such age-restricted goods and services as shall be prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State shall take all reasonable steps to determine that the person purchasing or otherwise obtaining access to such goods and services meets the specifications of the relevant age restriction.

Again, all reasonable steps is less than clear. What exactly would this mean? My view is that there are few things that could serve this purpose. The two I can think of are either an ID or a driving license. Asking for a copy of either of these would be a gross violation of one's privacy.

So, what is your take on the matter?
 
Have you everr tried to download software from oracle? If you try, they have a small questionaire before enabling the link to download their softwares.

You have to tick boxes such as "You are not a terrorist, you are not a resident or citizen of <list> , you will not use our software for illegal / immoral things" etc. If you doubt me, just go to www.oracle.com.

BTW, if you never heard of them, they are oen of the biggest corporate software companies in the world.


If oracle gets away with it, I'm pretty sure an online store could do the same.

Also, when you join AUKN we ask you to confirm you're older than 13, because of those privacy laws. I believe these would account for the reasonable steps ;)
 
I hope you're right. I do find any further pestering and nagging unreasonable, such as copying documents, however, not impossible.
I have ordered a copy of Photoshop Extended Student Edition, and they had my student id card copied and sent to them. I believe this could be a transitional step. I mean, a student id contains quite a lot of persona, private information.
Obviously it wasn't to ascertain my age, but they can do it apparently. They can ask for personal documents.
 
This Age Verification bill probably won't affect me. I import the majority of my anime, much of which doesn't carry any legally binding age restrictions on it. I'd be surprised if non-UK stores would have to comply to these proposals.
 
Surely they can't expect stores located elsewhere, under different jurisdictions to comply, but I think sanctions may be imposed on imports. Like say, Parcelfarce drags you to their 'lair' to verify your age. I'm only speculating though, its just a wild guess, probably not very likely.
 
Derfel said:
Surely they can't expect stores located elsewhere, under different jurisdictions to comply, but I think sanctions may be imposed on imports. Like say, Parcelfarce drags you to their 'lair' to verify your age. I'm only speculating though, its just a wild guess, probably not very likely.
Which is virtually impossible. Mmm on second thougth, it is possible, they can simply charge you 5 quid for that :'(
 
Derfel said:
I hope you're right. I do find any further pestering and nagging unreasonable, such as copying documents, however, not impossible.
I have ordered a copy of Photoshop Extended Student Edition, and they had my student id card copied and sent to them. I believe this could be a transitional step. I mean, a student id contains quite a lot of persona, private information.
Obviously it wasn't to ascertain my age, but they can do it apparently. They can ask for personal documents.

How much discount did being a student get you on photoshop extended edition?
 
Project-2501 said:
How much discount did being a student get you on photoshop extended edition?

The commercial reality argument can not serve as justification for it. It is, after all, a personal document.

The example serves as proof that it may happen.

Also, there is much more at stake in the case of age verification. If the owners of a webshop are caught, God have mercy on them.
 
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