Is the £85 pirce for Akeme Ga Kill Collectors Edition BD A Sad Example Of How Bad The UK Anime Marke

Rui

Karamatsu Boy
Administrator
Japan isn't going to learn that cheap people mean they should lower prices, because that leads to bankruptcy when the weight of evidence suggests that lower prices barely increase sales at all. They are going to learn that cheap people mean they should only make the kind of shows which milk hardcore otaku more and more, though, and that's detrimental to the industry's output in the long run.

I don't mind paying CE prices since I'm also in the 'digital-only has no value to me' camp for the most part. I used to buy a lot more mediocre anime; now I spend more per series and only buy titles I like, so I'm not really losing out too much. Even though I buy AL releases and MVM's NagiAsu set I'm saving money hand over fist by avoiding a lot of lesser shows now that I can no longer justify picking them up on a whim. Crunchyroll helps me ensure I don't miss something I might regret later.

I paid to download G-Reco but realistically I'd prefer to have it on disc anyway. I prefer paying to watch stuff whenever I want, but licensors aren't doing themselves any favours by training people to fear that shows will disappear with little warning because it really does happen. Then you have frankly stupid situations like FUNimation/Manga UK/whoever getting Crunchyroll to take Attack on Titan down for the home video release so nobody who was curious about it could watch without paying for the sets. Except for people in the US, of course, because FUNimation is working with a full digital strategy instead of a half-baked experiment.

I think digital can work, but it would take a significant amount of effort to get a service to the point where it was 'Steam, for anime' rather than a confusing mess nobody knows about where you pay too much to get a low quality, platform-locked file with no extras and only one language track. The different services we have now are a massive problem and worse with anime than with mainstream stuff. Why they insist on stretching the small number of paying fans across so many conflicting services with mutually exclusive catalogues, different app availability and almost universally awful player software is something I don't understand at all. Why are all of the UK services so bad, other than Crunchyroll who forget we exist half the time? It's so frustrating.

R
 

Buzz201

Mad Scientist
Rui said:
I think digital can work, but it would take a significant amount of effort to get a service to the point where it was 'Steam, for anime' rather than a confusing mess nobody knows about where you pay too much to get a low quality, platform-locked file with no extras and only one language track. The different services we have now are a massive problem and worse with anime than with mainstream stuff. Why they insist on stretching the small number of paying fans across so many conflicting services with mutually exclusive catalogues, different app availability and almost universally awful player software is something I don't understand at all. Why are all of the UK services so bad, other than Crunchyroll who forget we exist half the time? It's so frustrating.

R
Crunchyroll don't forget we exist, we just aren't worth any money. Hence why everyone else's player is awful...

Also, I've heard (don't know how true this is) that Crunchyroll had some European premium members only content, then the Americans whined so much that they didn't have access to it, that it caused a major PR problem and Crunchyroll never tried the idea again. So it's possible they don't want to give us nice things in case it upsets the other (much larger) market. Although their recent acquisitions of Prison School and Gangsa. would suggest that's no longer an issue, if it ever was.
 

Rui

Karamatsu Boy
Administrator
I suspect a more likely reason for the lack of exclusives is just what you say in the first part; we aren't worth it. If they could do what Animax UK are doing with the UK distributors more often, it could be good... but for whatever reason things don't ever seem to work out and everyone flocks to lesser platforms which can't offer the experience Crunchyroll does.

It really bothers me that it looks as though exclusivity deals are making everyone more money than actual fans can, so only Anime Ltd are making any effort at all to get streaming going on multiple platforms in a relevant way. It leads to a bunch of mediocre services, which in turn leads to a situation where nobody is recommending their newbie friends check out Series X legally because it's so much of a pain in the neck to do so. Which in turn means that the companies asking fans to blind buy an expensive CE makes even less sense than it should; I suspect Anime Ltd's strategy to get Tokyo Ghoul on as many platforms as possible really helped it sell well despite the higher-than-average-for-the-UK asking price.

My anime streaming each week is a drawn-out torturous process of checking multiple sites, only two of which publish (and stick to) a schedule at all. Many of the streaming attempts end up aborted because the players flake out for no reason. I don't know why anyone would stream anime legally in this country if they weren't already addicted (and slightly masochistic).

The UK distributors need to start taking more responsibility for it all to make their CE releases make sense. Only Anime Ltd is trying, and they're not holding everyone to ransom and saying that if Tokyo Ghoul doesn't sell out as a CE we're never getting a standard edition, or copy-pasting overseas releases and hoping that yelling at their customers will stop them from making the obvious comparisons.

R
 

HdE

Comic Book Guy
Buzz201 said:
HdE said:
Sorry, but it's a perfectly acceptable counter argument. Consumers and fans will always have the right to make a decision to buy or not buy releases on the basis of what they consider value for money. It's my opinion that £85 for 12 24 minute episodes is ATROCIOUS value for money.
I think there's a slight difference between "that's terrible value for money" and "I'm not willing to pay that much". It's small, but it transforms it from a terrible argument to an acceptable one.
You'll have to forgive my bluntness here, but I really don't see any difference. Ultimately, we all have freedom to pay or not pay the asking price for a product. And if somebody feels they've got a good deal, then there's no problem. But if people feel its a bad deal - and evidently some people do - then they've got a right to express that.
 

Buzz201

Mad Scientist
HdE said:
You'll have to forgive my bluntness here, but I really don't see any difference. Ultimately, we all have freedom to pay or not pay the asking price for a product. And if somebody feels they've got a good deal, then there's no problem. But if people feel its a bad deal - and evidently some people do - then they've got a right to express that.
Well, something not being good value for money is generally comparative, you not being willing to pay something is arbitrary. You can't make a person willing to pay more for your product but you can make it better value for money. One is a reasonable complaint that a company could attempt to do something about if they were so inclined, the other they can't...
 

britguy

Za Warudo
Buzz201 said:
Well, something not being good value for money is generally comparative, you not being willing to pay something is arbitrary. You can't make a person willing to pay more for your product but you can make it better value for money. One is a reasonable complaint that a company could attempt to do something about if they were so inclined, the other they can't...
But where do you draw the line, ignoring the current title in question,just because someone doesn't perceive a value to be good value doesn't actually mean it isn't, just that to them they are not willing to pay said price. SO therefore, they are personally undervaluing the worth of a release.
 

Buzz201

Mad Scientist
britguy said:
Buzz201 said:
Well, something not being good value for money is generally comparative, you not being willing to pay something is arbitrary. You can't make a person willing to pay more for your product but you can make it better value for money. One is a reasonable complaint that a company could attempt to do something about if they were so inclined, the other they can't...
But where do you draw the line, ignoring the current title in question,just because someone doesn't perceive a value to be good value doesn't actually mean it isn't, just that to them they are not willing to pay said price. SO therefore, they are personally undervaluing the worth of a release.
Well, I think you'd have to work out what the average person thought and base it from that.

So in the example of Akame ga Kill, I've yet to see anybody say that it's good value for money or that the price is reasonable. It seems to be either far too expensive or "quite expensive, but I'm willing to pay that much". The only defence I've seen is "get the standard edition if you don't want to pay that much". Therefore we could reasonably suggest that the release is not good value for money. Whereas with Full Metal Panic!, the general consensus among fans seems to be that it is good value for money, and among people that haven't seen the show before that it isn't. Therefore it would be reasonable to suggest that the price is good value for money for a collector's edition, but not a standard edition.

And I included the phrase "if they were so inclined" to point out that I didn't necessarily think the price would have to be good value for money for everyone
 

SpaceDandy

Dandy Guy, in Space
Rosencrantz said:
You know I wonder if part of the issue we are having is there's no standard edition BD like the US have announced at present. The set we are discussing at the moment is basically the collectors set where we accept that we get milked for extra cash because it's a collectors set.

If time progresses and we don't see the same setup of DvD, BD, Deluxe Set as the US I think we should be up in arms about this disparity as it implies they are forcing us towards the expensive only option.
The price might be slightly higher but that's pretty much what anime limited is doing right now. LE/CE then SE. Price aside, I do not understand the hate there while you're totally fine with that strategy from another distributor.
And on top of that, we do not know the details of the deal with animatsu nor what the licencor want. A SE will come soon enough anyway, without a doubt.
 

crashmatt

Death Scythe
£85 for 12 episode is certainly not good value for money any way you look at it. However I do expect that the price will drop to the £60 mark. I suspect that Manga/ Animatsu are limited with what they can charge as it's essentially an imported version of the US release from Sentai. It would be nice if distributors did their own thing but I guess its more cost effective this way. I'm defiantly interested in this series as a CE as I'm a fan of Akame Ga Kill but it all comes down to the price.
 

Buzz201

Mad Scientist
SpaceDandy said:
The price might be slightly higher but that's pretty much what anime limited is doing right now. LE/CE then SE. Price aside, I do not understand the hate there while you're totally fine with that strategy from another distributor.
And on top of that, we do not know the details of the deal with animatsu nor what the licencor want. A SE will come soon enough anyway, without a doubt.
The problem is the price, if you're going CE only, don't do it at double what other distributors normally charge when you're padding your set out with temporary tattoos. Also, AL normally say an SE is coming at some point, and I don't think Andrew would not do an SE if the CE didn't sell well enough at £80 for 12 episodes.

The show is sub-licenced from Sentai Filmworks, who are releasing an SE. So unless Sentai are demanding it, there's no reason why Animatsu can't.

Robbl said:
Depends if Manga UK puts their logo and age resriction all over the art case or not.
The BBFC restrictions are a legal requirement, it has to have them in the correct size on the front and back cover (the spine is not a legal requirement, but one of the big high street retails apparently will not stock an item without it), but whether they do a wrap-around or not remains to be seen.
 

SpaceDandy

Dandy Guy, in Space
Buzz201 said:
The problem is the price, if you're going CE only, don't do it at double what other distributors normally charge when you're padding your set out with temporary tattoos. Also, AL normally say an SE is coming at some point, and I don't think Andrew would not do an SE if the CE didn't sell well enough at £80 for 12 episodes.
As I said, the price is certainly high but I do remember some quite high SRP from AL such as Space Dandy at 69£. The SD CE has way less content and a lower manufacturing quality (badly sticked box artwork, not centered, low quality glue, etc.).

pretty sure if it was AL and not animatsu, you guys wouldn't complain as much.
 
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britguy

Za Warudo
SpaceDandy said:
Buzz201 said:
The problem is the price, if you're going CE only, don't do it at double what other distributors normally charge when you're padding your set out with temporary tattoos. Also, AL normally say an SE is coming at some point, and I don't think Andrew would not do an SE if the CE didn't sell well enough at £80 for 12 episodes.
As I said, the price is certainly high but I do remember some quite high SRP from AL such as Space Dandy at 69£. The SD CE has way less content and a lower manufacturing quality (badly sticked box artwork, not centered, low quality glue, etc.).

pretty sure if it was AL and not animatsu, you guys wouldn't complain as much.
I paid £42 for Space Dandy, which will be £25-£30 less than what this will cost. I'd be happy to buy AgK at the same price.

And when you talk about "way less content" do you mean the fact that AgK comes with a load of tat like tattoos and stickers (useless to me) and SP only came with an artbook? Or are you just referring to the DVDs that the AgK set comes with?
 
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Buzz201

Mad Scientist
SpaceDandy said:
As I said, the price is certainly high but I do remember some quite high SRP from AL such as Space Dandy at 69£. The SD CE has way less content and a lower manufacturing quality (badly sticked box artwork, not centered, low quality glue, etc.).

pretty sure if it was AL and not animatsu, you guys wouldn't complain as much.
How can you comment on manufacturing quality, if the release isn't out yet? That's ridiculous...
 
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SpaceDandy

Dandy Guy, in Space
Please don't start this. AKG will get the exact same treatment as the previous sentai collector box. The release will certainly be better than SD, without a doubt. Indeed it's not out yet but we have enough knowledge to know how it should end up ;)

britguy said:
I paid £42 for Space Dandy, which will be £25-£30 less than what this will cost. I'd be happy to buy AgK at the same price.
Considering zavvi cut FMP price in half at some point, I wouldn't be impressed if it would happen for AGK too. Just be patient?
 

britguy

Za Warudo
SpaceDandy said:
Please don't start this. AKG will get the exact same treatment as the previous sentai collector box. The release will certainly be better than SD, without a doubt. Indeed it's not out yet but we have enough knowledge to know how it should end up ;)

britguy said:
I paid £42 for Space Dandy, which will be £25-£30 less than what this will cost. I'd be happy to buy AgK at the same price.
Considering zavvi cut FMP price in half at some point, I wouldn't be impressed if it would happen for AGK too. Just be patient?
That's not the point here bud. If it were then we could just wait for everything to reach rock bottom prices and never complain. At the end of the day, it's the early adopters paying full price or thereabouts who keep the uk anime industry afloat.
 

serpantino

Vampire Ninja
Rui said:
Japan isn't going to learn that cheap people mean they should lower prices, because that leads to bankruptcy when the weight of evidence suggests that lower prices barely increase sales at all. They are going to learn that cheap people mean they should only make the kind of shows which milk hardcore otaku more and more, though, and that's detrimental to the industry's output in the long run.
R
Cheap people, that's a bit offensive... Some of us just don't have that kind of money to keep wasting on extras we don't want and these hardcore otaku's you speak of tend not to wait for the UK release if it's available earlier elsewhere. Why should anime be restricted to an elitist group with money to burn?
 

Rui

Karamatsu Boy
Administrator
serpantino said:
Cheap people, that's a bit offensive... Some of us just don't have that kind of money to keep wasting on extras we don't want and these hardcore otaku's you speak of tend not to wait for the UK release if it's available earlier elsewhere. Why should anime be restricted to an elitist group with money to burn?
Apologies if that's how it came across. I think everyone is capable of being a 'cheap person' though depending on the circumstances if they make a value call on something and decide it's too expensive. It wasn't intended pejoratively at all; people with lower budgets who pick up S.A.V.E. sets in sales simply aren't supporting the industry as much as people who go out and spend thousands on their favourite show as a full price preorder, and buy all of the hug pillows and soundtracks. And that's ok, because nobody can afford to do that for every show they like no matter how fortunate they are financially. I buy S.A.V.E. releases and skip releases I don't think are worth the money just like anybody else.

Still, I stand by the core of what I say. Yes, it utterly, utterly sucks from an individual's perspective if they want physical and they're being priced out when they aren't keen on streaming. But if that's what it actually costs to make anime sales work, that's what it costs; streaming is a huge revolution considering that back in the day that same audience would have just had nothing at all other than renting The Guyver from their local library over and over if they couldn't afford the releases they wanted (been there, done that). There have been countless experiments already in the other direction and nobody has yet hit upon a reliable formula to make cheaper volume sales work for niche shows in the UK. Big shows certainly benefit from wider, accessible releases. Small shows just bleed money.

(I don't think waiting for the UK version is necessarily good for the industry at all, either, though that's a whole other debate.)

On the subject of why Manga/Animatsu is taking so much flak compared to Anime Limited, as I said earlier I strongly believe this is because Andrew is so transparent about when we can expect cheaper editions down the line even though it flies in the face of all accepted marketing strategies. He knows some people can't pick up the special editions and he tries to hint (or outright tells them) so they don't feel the situation is hopeless. Manga are obviously trying to manipulate people into buying the version they want to sell and historically when that fails, they cancel releases to cut their losses (and have been known to have public tantrums about it). I don't respect that attitude, so I don't buy from them. Several of the people posting here are genuinely worried no standard edition is coming at all - which makes the inflated price of the CE that much harder to swallow.

R
 

serpantino

Vampire Ninja
No problem Rui I wasn't sure how it was meant. I do try to preorder anime as much as possible as a way of supporting the industry but often cull the list closer to release and ce's tend to be the first to go.

I do currently have full metal panic on preoder though (at £70) as there's nothing else I plan on buying, it's released on my 30th birthday and my gf is going to put some money towards it. That is a lot more than 12 episodes though and I wouldn't pay much more even if I could spare the money

By contrast though I love space dandy but I won't get the season 2 CE until it drops in price.
 

britguy

Za Warudo
Going back to what member "space dandy" said about him believing we wouldn't have an issue with this pricing if it were anime limited, I think it would be hypocritical of myself if I blindly accepted a 90 quid rrp for their new Terror in Resonance Ultimate Edition.

Admittedly, there is a difference here as TiR is something I have longed for since it's initial license and am desperate to buy, plus it is a UK exclusive, but in the grand scheme of things it's not too dissimilar to what Animatsu will be offering here (larger box, bigger and longer artbook but less "extra")

If it comes out at £90 rrp then I'll be disappointed, especially when compared to the FMP and TTGL releases and their costs, but I'll buy knowing Amazon will likely drop it to £65. I guess it just goes to show that we're more forgiving regarding price when it's something we actually want :?
 
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