Adam-M
Stand User
That line there makes me wonder what planet you're on. None of the world is free and open but the people of this country have always questioned the government.
General Politics Thread
- Thread starter Watanabe Ken
- Start date
Invisible Crane
Adventurer
I meant the basic freedom to go out and about, to be able to travel abroad or just be able to go out and shop or hang with friends and not worry about social Distancing. Something which will no longer be a thing post lockdown given what the government has planned for us
Also I've noticed that anyone who's questioned the government over the lockdown has been either silenced or shunned or deemed lunatics
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How is that any different from what you're doing in criticising those who like the idea of vulnerable people being allowed to stay alive more than they like hanging out in the high street? In fact, you're literally the only person here actively questioning the mental faculties of the people with whom you are trying to debate, without any provocation. For example:
Meanwhile, everyone else is having an actual debate. To be clear, I wasn't the one who has been removing your propaganda videos but I agree with the spirit of the removal. History has shown that debating YouTubers who aren't on AUKN is a pointless endeavour; I got through maybe one minute of that last one and it said absolutely nothing. It was just someone being angry about his own misinterpretation of something that nobody ever said (in an assertive, condescending tone).
Debate with your own words (and properly referenced links to published peer-reviewed science), not with unsubstantiated claims made by third parties who don't have to defend any of their comments to the rest of the thread's participants. People posting politically-motivated videos with no opportunity to challenge the actual speaker/creator has never, in the entire history of the Internet, done anything to further productive debate. We can't debate this stuff with some YouTube guy from this thread on AUKN. We can, however, debate it with you, so please consider engaging the other users respectfully, without making baseless accusations and then turning around to accuse everyone else of doing the same thing to you. When they didn't.
Seriously, chill out.
R
Anime1977
Thousand Master
A Tale of Two Committees
It's about the online harms bill there a bit though policeing with bit of think of the children and suggestions of age verification and even having website have people confirm their identity by providing something like home address with a utility bill or some other form of id so can use a social media sites to stop online bullying and other forms of harassment.its a long read and I've only read bits of it.
It's about the online harms bill there a bit though policeing with bit of think of the children and suggestions of age verification and even having website have people confirm their identity by providing something like home address with a utility bill or some other form of id so can use a social media sites to stop online bullying and other forms of harassment.its a long read and I've only read bits of it.
Kite
Pokémon Master
The lockdown in this country hasn't been as restricted as the lock down measures in Spain or France (no filling out of paperwork before you head out to the local shop for supplies). Some countries have higher fines if you were caught outside without a valid reason.
It isn't the UK government which has scared people but some parts of the media
It isn't the UK government which has scared people but some parts of the media
crashmatt
Death Scythe
I'm pretty much at this point, there is no escaping it. This has been such a wierd year sooner it's over the better. I do hope people will support local businesses when this is all over.
ayase
State Alchemist
I've struggled to find the words to address the political situation over the last few days in a way that wouldn't be flagged for terrorism, but I think I've finally hit on the core of what I want to say.
Things have to get worse before they get better. And for that reason I'm glad Donald Trump is President, because he's making things worse, which can ultimately lead to them getting better. If Hillary Clinton, or Joe Biden, or Ted Cruz were President now, what would have happened? Some nice, mock heartfelt scripted platitudes and soundbites about "hearing people" and "feeling their pain and frustration" and "healing society" and what would have changed for black people in America? Nothing. Just like it didn't when Obama was President. All Trump is doing is confirming what they've always known; that their government doesn't give a damn about them and just wants them to be obedient slaves and is more than willing to beat it into them. And that makes the government and the authorities an unambiguous, justifiable enemy. Now if only all the poor white people would realise the same is true of the government's attitude to them...
Things have to get worse before they get better. And for that reason I'm glad Donald Trump is President, because he's making things worse, which can ultimately lead to them getting better. If Hillary Clinton, or Joe Biden, or Ted Cruz were President now, what would have happened? Some nice, mock heartfelt scripted platitudes and soundbites about "hearing people" and "feeling their pain and frustration" and "healing society" and what would have changed for black people in America? Nothing. Just like it didn't when Obama was President. All Trump is doing is confirming what they've always known; that their government doesn't give a damn about them and just wants them to be obedient slaves and is more than willing to beat it into them. And that makes the government and the authorities an unambiguous, justifiable enemy. Now if only all the poor white people would realise the same is true of the government's attitude to them...
Vashdaman
Za Warudo
I was having similar thoughts the other day myself too, that these protests wouldn't be happening to this extent if someone slick and more savvy at more or less propagating the status quo (like Obama/Hillary ect) were in power. Trump's evil is just so unambiguous and he's only capable of pouring oil on an already incendiary situation. I don't know, I feel heartless saying I'm glad Trump is in power, as he'll have killed and ruined many people's lives before the hoped for changes come, especially as I don't have to live through it myself, but yeah I do try to be optimistic and hopeful that his outrageous evil will galvanise people.
I don't know about the poor white people, but I did read an interesting take on it from Norman Frankenstein the other day expressing his view that many young white people view this as an opportunity to express general discontent towards the establishment, as a large proportion of protesters is made up of that demographic.
I don't know about the poor white people, but I did read an interesting take on it from Norman Frankenstein the other day expressing his view that many young white people view this as an opportunity to express general discontent towards the establishment, as a large proportion of protesters is made up of that demographic.
Invisible Crane
Adventurer
So am I. But then you get to the "Bill Gates unleashed the virus so he can inject microchips and depopulate the planet on behalf of the new world order so the survivors will be enslaved under a one world government" bollocks........and people legit believe this, not just the off the grid tin foil hat wearing crowd but legit intelligent people actually believe this...........if 2020 has proven me one thing its people will believe any BS these days
EDIT - I learned a lot from my suspension here. Turns out in a situation like this, people tend to turn to the most outlandish of theories to try and justify whats going on
ayase
State Alchemist
Do you really need to ask at this point? Almost every world government has lost their minds over covid, but the UK government especially because of their special status as "totally useless".
Since turning over the handling of the economy to the BoE and privatising or entering into one-sided "public-private partnerships" for providing most public services (people's tax money going into the pockets of private corporations that otherwise wouldn't be profitable, awesome, wish I could run an unprofitable business and still take home a fat bonus) what do the government actually do? Almost nothing except use their positions of power to enrich themselves. But the politicians need to give the public a reason for them to still exist so they can continue to draw their salaries and abuse their positions, and it's also useful to them to pretend we're still living in a democracy rather than a fast-approaching cyberpunk dystopia where meagcorporations rule the world, so people don't get too rebellious.
Enter government's new role: KEEPING YOU SAFE. The government are GOOD PEOPLE who will protect you from BAD PEOPLE (the "War on Terror" was all about redefining the role of governments into basically sh*t superheroes who didn't actually save people, but damn if they didn't stand up and make a lot of stirring patriotic speeches) and now, BAD THINGS in general. So they have to keep everyone safe from covid, no matter that it's literally impossible. So was keeping people safe from terrorism. They have to make a show of doing it, otherwise what are they good for?
Of course the Tories in particular don't like spending all this money and are loathe to spend any more, but the corner they've backed themselves into is one where government's only major role is public safety, and they're now caught in the position where in order to portray themselves as keeping people safe (when they, or rather their corporate and financial paymasters, don't actually give a toss; they'd probably rather all the elderly and unemployed just died) they have to spend like crazy. And now they're worried, because all this spending is going to screw their credit rating and in today's society, that's pretty much the only thing that matters. But if they give up and admit the unpoular truth that politics can't save people from a virus, they're basically admitting how utterly useless they are for ANYTHING and people will start to see through the charade.
Yes, I am in fact a little mad. But then so is this goddamn world.
thedoctor2016
Mushi-shi
Yeah they backed the science. Well they painted themselves as backing the science. And now every member of UK bar England is entering a circuit breaker lockdown ooh I wonder who is following the science now.
The other easy attack line is they made themselves pro levelling up/devolution and now ignore Wales' and GMs plea for help (Well now they seem to actually backed down but didn't tell the mayors first inflaming the war)
The other easy attack line is they made themselves pro levelling up/devolution and now ignore Wales' and GMs plea for help (Well now they seem to actually backed down but didn't tell the mayors first inflaming the war)
ayase
State Alchemist
This entire idea of "circuit breaker" lockdowns is one the most ludicrous things I've ever heard. Yeah, let's have total shutdown for a couple of weeks and then start everything up again. And then the virus will spread again, just like it did when we came out of total lockdown. And then I guess we'll have another "circuit breaker" and carry on like this while no-one will actually be any safer, and everyone's jobs and childrens' education will be thrown into complete uncertainty because no-one knows from day-to-day whether they'll be able to go to work or school tomorrow.
What we need is a social safety net for at risk people, the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions and their households should be allowed to isolate (however if they want to chance it I don't see any reason they shouldn't be allowed to, it's their lives) without losing their income. We have the figures now. In the UK, 77% of people who have died of Covid are over 75 years old (so probably collecting pensions and unlikely to be employed anyway). 92% of people who have died had pre-existing health conditions. Those are the people we should be concentrating on, I think it's time to just admit that the vast majority of people are probably going to get covid and NOT die so most of these business closures, social distancing, mask wearing and endless contact dermatitis from covering your hands in alcohol is serving very little purpose at all.
source for figures: Covid death figures: 10 things we've learned
What we need is a social safety net for at risk people, the elderly and those with pre-existing health conditions and their households should be allowed to isolate (however if they want to chance it I don't see any reason they shouldn't be allowed to, it's their lives) without losing their income. We have the figures now. In the UK, 77% of people who have died of Covid are over 75 years old (so probably collecting pensions and unlikely to be employed anyway). 92% of people who have died had pre-existing health conditions. Those are the people we should be concentrating on, I think it's time to just admit that the vast majority of people are probably going to get covid and NOT die so most of these business closures, social distancing, mask wearing and endless contact dermatitis from covering your hands in alcohol is serving very little purpose at all.
source for figures: Covid death figures: 10 things we've learned
thedoctor2016
Mushi-shi
But we are locking down to prevent the blockages on the NHS which is by people who are not over 75 on average as they are deemed to ill to be put on ICU.
Yes we will have to keep locking down because people’s lives are more important than the economy. Rates are low negative rates may be happening we can borrow with no consequence for the near future the Tories are pretending we need balance the books because they are Thatcherite, we can borrow support business and save lives. And honestly I do not care that my life and the tax I will pay we will be used to pay this off it’s more worth while spending than a war and shows people what’s important. And it’s not the economy the economy isn’t the first priority life is.
Long COVID is a thing and that affects people of all ages so heed immunity is not an effective strategy.
Yes we will have to keep locking down because people’s lives are more important than the economy. Rates are low negative rates may be happening we can borrow with no consequence for the near future the Tories are pretending we need balance the books because they are Thatcherite, we can borrow support business and save lives. And honestly I do not care that my life and the tax I will pay we will be used to pay this off it’s more worth while spending than a war and shows people what’s important. And it’s not the economy the economy isn’t the first priority life is.
Long COVID is a thing and that affects people of all ages so heed immunity is not an effective strategy.
Darren Skippings
Adventurer
I'll join in, "Circuit breaker" lockdowns won't work now, for many reasons, 1. they don't include education (which is the major infection area for the 2nd "wave" 2. it's too damn late now, the deaths have already started, talk about shutting the stable door after the horse has not only bolted, it's been ran over by a train. 3. without a properly sorted and working test and trace, nothing will hold infection rates, as the government has spaffed public money at their friends and 12 Billion of it, there is no way it could ever be saved, money gone into probably off shore accounts, thank you very much.
A lockdown at this point would be futile without firstly figuring out where the government has got it so wrong, this won't be happening as the Tories are hell bent on punishing anybody north of Watford, for whatever reason they see fit, an 80 seat majority it seems gives you a lot of say.
Ok and while I'm here, it will be a no deal Brexit, as it was always going to be, as soon as Johnson became PM, he won't be there come 3rd-10th January, he'll be off "for health reasons" (probably alcoholism) with a bulging bank account to the tune of £99 Billion, that being the unspent "moonshot" money.
A lockdown at this point would be futile without firstly figuring out where the government has got it so wrong, this won't be happening as the Tories are hell bent on punishing anybody north of Watford, for whatever reason they see fit, an 80 seat majority it seems gives you a lot of say.
Ok and while I'm here, it will be a no deal Brexit, as it was always going to be, as soon as Johnson became PM, he won't be there come 3rd-10th January, he'll be off "for health reasons" (probably alcoholism) with a bulging bank account to the tune of £99 Billion, that being the unspent "moonshot" money.
ayase
State Alchemist
Agreed, but the society we've created puts such a massive financial burden on most people that the two are inextricably linked. Financial insecurity has the ability to destroy people's lives. if they're going to continue on the path of stopping people from working and not paying them their full salaries (plus when schools get closed but parents still have to work, who looks after the kids? Are people expected to pay for that extra expense as well in the same way the uni students have to pay to be basically imprisoned in halls of residence, I bet they wish they'd just become criminals, they could have had the same experience for free) or even losing their jobs when their employers go out of business due to the lockdowns, I think the overall suffering caused by the government’s actions can now probably be said to be greater than that caused by the virus.
I get protecting people who NEED protecting. But this does not appear to be most people below the age of 75, whose lives are being upended mainly, as far as I can see, because the government just wants to project the image of being in control of a situation it can't realistically gain control over.
I’m really not liking the atmosphere this is cultivating in society one bit. It’s making people miserable, anxious over their futures, scared and distrustful of each other and in the latter aspect it’s like the terror-fear on steroids, because now ANYONE could infect and kill your loved ones, and I hate it.
thedoctor2016
Mushi-shi
That I can agreed on it’s made trust harder like I’ll be honest I think this will shift our economy away from service led as it’s just rapidly showed the problems with the economy thatcher created.
I do think there must be a middle ground where people can go outside and old people aren’t locked away but either but that relies on track and trace and people being able to afford self isolation but Tory government who pretends it’s spent too much money (then spends billions the next day...)
I do think there must be a middle ground where people can go outside and old people aren’t locked away but either but that relies on track and trace and people being able to afford self isolation but Tory government who pretends it’s spent too much money (then spends billions the next day...)