Geneon in turmoil after deal with ADV Films is canceled

[melonpan]

heh, wow, I must have been reading Dannime's mind as we both typed...

Great minds think alike.

EDIT: And yeah, on the UK side of things - I'm sure it's not going to affect us in any way. The one thing that is the link between the UK and the US is what company licenses the anime - and what UK company gets this sublicense from - and as Geneon's going to become a licensing company, this won't affect anything. I guess it'll mean that MVM will be releasing products from the creative minds of only ADV and Funimation now (and maybe a few smaller companies), as you've already mentioned, which will decrease the size of the Western production "pool". Although, not knowing how Geneon's dubs were produced - I can only guess that their VA's (if they went through a specific company, that was tied to Geneon), will join other companies, so I think we'll still hear the same old VA's as we're used to.

For future thinking. There are only four major US distributors left now (ADV, Funimation (Viz) (Bandai are on the borderline). So maybe sometime in the future, if these companies also find that their revenue isn't covering their outgoings from dub costs and prodction costs (like Geneon has obviously found out), they might also become licensing companies. So maybe sometime in the future there'll be one big American production company, with lots of licensing companies all making their money and that one main production company becoming very efficient. That might never happen though, who knows. Interesting stuff.

Out of interest. Maybe it could just be that the American market is becoming more like the Japanese market. If anyone can give some information on the amount of major Japanese production companies, maybe we can make a comparison.

 

[Fellistowe]

Out of interest. Maybe it could just be that the American market is becoming more like the Japanese market. If anyone can give some information on the amount of major Japanese production companies, maybe we can make a comparison.

Now that's an interesting point, I wouldn't mind seeing that comparason as well.
How about spinning the concept on its head, instead of one or 2 major production companies, you have lots of smaller subcontractors handling the different aspects (sub, dub, distribution, etc). I think the setup is kinda like that already to a certain extent, perhaps it may become more so (I'll have to sit and wade through the ANN listings for series production companies one day if I ever get that bored) You could have lots of small VA companies

p.s. Anyone else willing to comment on the quality of the Black Lagoon disks from Geneon recently. Try comparing the print quality of the extras disk that came with the first special edition to the rest of the disks. Is it me or is the print quality really sucky (never mind the steel pencilboards that came with the last disk special edition). A serious case of going to the cheapest bidder...

 

[Sakimori]

I really should think this over properly before I post, but my final mind set on this now is that Geneon is going to become a licensing company (as mentioned on lots of places), like Kadokawa, and make deals with other distributors to release their titles.
I think this is a shame because for me, Geneon have always done some of the best releases for things, and I've been really looking forward to seeing what they're planning to do with their licensed series; but I guess now it'll be down to the likes of Funimation and ADV to produce the English version of these series, so there are a lot of bad things with that, ADV doing the same old artbox releases with no original designs, and Funimation - with some really fantastic artbox designs, but bad encoding and a general lack of care for the quality of the video/audio (see Gunslinger Girl).
I'd go as far as to say I'm 100% sure that this is what will be the case by early 2008, and starting now distribution wise. There will be a lag time on all their current releases.
If something else happens to what I've said - I'd be pretty surprised.

EDIT:

Ok I don't really like Geneon.

What is the reasoning behind this?

Well it really stems back to last year when it seamed that Geneon were a company who don't really care about the UK and wait for us to approach them instead of actively trying to get its series released over here, not to mention they're dubbing is crap.

 

[melonpan]

Now that's an interesting point, I wouldn't mind seeing that comparason as well.
How about spinning the concept on its head, instead of one or 2 major production companies, you have lots of smaller subcontractors handling the different aspects (sub, dub, distribution, etc). I think the setup is kinda like that already to a certain extent, perhaps it may become more so (I'll have to sit and wade through the ANN listings for series production companies one day if I ever get that bored) You could have lots of small VA companies

That'd be interesting if lots of different companies handled different parts of production, but then again I don't think that would work for some aspects. Encoding and dubbing is usually given to professional companies to do anyway (apart from Funimation in the encoding aspect), I can see how it might work for the putting together of the release side of things (artbox/package design etc), and a full on marketing/promoting/distribution division - that would really benefit all the companies as it could promote series from all companies without being tied to one, which would help the industry, and make things all the more efficient. As for the Westernisation and research (and subtitles), that'd be quite a task for a single company - with the volume of series being released, so I'm not sure how that would work.

p.s. Anyone else willing to comment on the quality of the Black Lagoon disks from Geneon recently. Try comparing the print quality of the extras disk that came with the first special edition to the rest of the disks. Is it me or is the print quality really sucky (never mind the steel pencilboards that came with the last disk special edition). A serious case of going to the cheapest bidder...

Mine are in the post, so I'll have a look.
I was going to say that the quality of the Story of Saiunkoku DVD case looks normal, then I realised you were asking about the quality of the disc. Do you mean the printing on the top of the disc, or the quality of the video/audio?

Well it really stems back to last year when it seamed that Geneon were a company who don't really care about the UK and wait for us to approach them instead of actively trying to get its series released over here, not to mention they're dubbing is crap.

First of all, not that I watch Geneon's dubs, I've read that their Hellsing Ultimate dub was exceptional compared to their other releases. I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I can't see how just Geneon's dubs would suck, unless there are some VA's who are tied to companies (which is probably the case), and all of Geneon's are "crap" - which I would not think is the case.

As for them actively bringing releases over here.. I don't know exactly how it all works, if Geneon actively look for UK companies to release their products over here and whatnot, but it seems to me that MVM are doing a fine job with their releases of Geneon titles.
On top of that, I can't think the UK is on Geneon's top priority right now, as all their sales and marketing divison has just been wiped off the map, and as is quite obvious - they are going through some rather hard times. So I don't think it's best to judge them on what they do for the UK, that's up to MVM.

 

[Fellistowe]

Mine are in the post, so I'll have a look.
I was going to say that the quality of the Story of Saiunkoku DVD case looks normal, then I realised you were asking about the quality of the disc. Do you mean the printing on the top of the disc, or the quality of the video/audio?

Sorry, I'll clarify, I meant the printing on top of the disk. I haven't gottten round to checking the video/audio quality yet :?
The Saiunkoku DVD's print quality is fine (although I'm contemplating using the artbox to hold christmas cards with), as are the other Geneon disks I'm getting like Karin, Fate/Stay, Higurashi, etc. Just seemed the quality on the Black Lagoon disks was a bit sub-par. If I can pick it up with my camera I'll post some piccys.

 

[melonpan]

Sorry, I'll clarify, I meant the printing on top of the disk. I haven't gottten round to checking the video/audio quality yet :?
The Saiunkoku DVD's print quality is fine (although I'm contemplating using the artbox to hold christmas cards with), as are the other Geneon disks I'm getting like Karin, Fate/Stay, Higurashi, etc. Just seemed the quality on the Black Lagoon disks was a bit sub-par. If I can pick it up with my camera I'll post some piccys.

Ah okay, and with the Saiunkoku artbox-thing, mine has a manufacturing error, the box isn't made correctly - so the top part of the lid goes right over the bottom one, on one side, which sucks. Interesting design though, I must say. I like the way Geneon handle their longer running series (~70 episodes).

 

[Paul]

I think my main concern is in terms of the future. It's possible that anime which had perhaps been earmarked for Geneon in the past ends up in the hands of FUNimation or ADV, meaning MVM are cut out of the loop. Overall it doesn't seem to have such a profound effect on our industry, just it seems like the smaller companies are gradually being edged out of the game as the Japanese get a firmer hold on their foreign business.

As for this whole "sub-licensing" situation as per Kadokawa Pictures USA, until we see The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya released in the UK, it's hard to tell whether or not their appearance is a good or bad thing. Given the rapid spread of Haruhi across the online community, you'd think they'd want to release the series across the world as fast as possible to strike while the franchise is still hot. Surely the UK companies would be interested in one of the most popular anime to appear in recent years, so what's holding up the release?

 

[Fellistowe]

As for this whole "sub-licensing" situation as per Kadokawa Pictures USA, until we see The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya released in the UK, it's hard to tell whether or not their appearance is a good or bad thing. Given the rapid spread of Haruhi across the online community, you'd think they'd want to release the series across the world as fast as possible to strike while the franchise is still hot. Surely the UK companies would be interested in one of the most popular anime to appear in recent years, so what's holding up the release?

That's a very good point Paul, taking Haruhi as the example, from what I've been told she’s never made it to the UK because her licence is extremely expensive, and there are guaranteed monthly profit returns tied into the contract (something which the UK couldn't stand a chance of meeting). I wouldn't mind hearing from Andrew if those conditions are set by the Japanese licensors or if people like Kadokawa USA have some involvement in it (I'm still learning when it comes to that bit).
Anyone know off the top of their head if any Kadokawa owned licences have made it to the UK yet? If Dentsu force Geneon go that path then do the licences to the UK start getting harder to get?

 

[melonpan]

so what's holding up the release?

The fact that a UK distributor would have to negotiate with Kadokawa, and Bandai, to get the release. Then there are all the details of the release, with the special broadcast order disc and all the extra's, it's a hard license to make.

 

[Tasker]

...but on the negative side it reduces the creative production pool in the west and we start ending up with the same dub voices for all the anime.

That's something that had crossed my mind too, it's already like that as it is, what with ADV and Funimation sharing VAs. :?

You could have lots of small VA companies

Oh God I hope not, it'll end up similar to when dubbing first started out, crappy pissant studios doing one off productions with wooden VAs. :?

p.s. Anyone else willing to comment on the quality of the Black Lagoon disks from Geneon recently. Try comparing the print quality of the extras disk that came with the first special edition to the rest of the disks. Is it me or is the print quality really sucky (never mind the steel pencilboards that came with the last disk special edition). A serious case of going to the cheapest bidder...

Appart from the fact that the extras disc is printed on a white base and the main disks arn't, the print quality on my disks seems to match up ok so maybe it's just yours? ( Ok, maybe I could argue that disk 1 is a midgies dick sharper than 2 and 3 but that's just nitpicking. )

You're not kidding about the pencilboards though, sheesh, they really are cheap and nasty.

so what's holding up the release?

The fact that a UK distributor would have to negotiate with Kadokawa, and Bandai, to get the release. Then there are all the details of the release, with the special broadcast order disc and all the extra's, it's a hard license to make.

True, i'm led to belive that any licence that has more than one owner is a nightmare to negotiate. This is why I ended up importing Haruhi as I expect it'll be a while before it get's a UK release, if it gets one.

 

[melonpan]

Anyone know off the top of their head if any Kadokawa owned licences have made it to the UK yet? If Dentsu force Geneon go that path then do the licences to the UK start getting harder to get?

I'd check what Kadokawa have licensed, but AnimeNewsNetwork is down.

I don't think it will make any difference when Geneon become solely a licensing company. The relationship between MVM and Geneon has already been established so I can't see that changing (although maybe the staff MVM used to talk to at Geneon may have been sacked, which might slow negotiations down a little). As MVM seem to use Madman designed releases, they don't rely on Geneon to produce the product, so that side of it is okay as well, so all in all I don't think anything will change for the UK.

 

[Fellistowe]

Appart from the fact that the extras disc is printed on a white base and the main disks arn't, the print quality on my disks seems to match up ok so maybe it's just yours? ( Ok, maybe I could argue that disk 1 is a midgies dick sharper than 2 and 3 but that's just nitpicking. )

aah, so that's why the black on the extras disk looks so much sharper, and the other disks look kinda see through
I think I had a dodgy print on disk 2, it a lot more seethrough that the rest
Its not often I bitch about disk print quality, it just stood out so much in comparison to the extras disk

You're not kidding about the pencilboards though, sheesh, they really are cheap and nasty.

Hiding them in the back in shame....

 

[Fellistowe]

I'd check what Kadokawa have licensed, but AnimeNewsNetwork is down.

FMP Second Raid for a start, I know a lot of people are frustrated that hasn't made it to the UK yet.

 

[Arbalest]

As much as i would like to see the release of Haruhi here, i don't think it will be dealt with any time soon because of the negotiations that would have to be done as danime said. As for Geneon, its bad news and what happens from that is nothing i could really guess about much. The only thing i'd like to see still is the rest of the Black Lagoon DVD's get released but that maybe held up or not get finished.

Maybe if it doesn't get fully released by geneon, it could be finished by another distribution company or fully redistributed. No doubt though thats my mind saying a whole bunch of nonescense again

 

[Paul]

By the way guys, check out these two press releases:

http://www.animeondvd.com/news/pr.php?pr_view=1154

http://www.dentsu.com/news/2007/pdf/2007064-0921.pdf

Note that the Japanese PR states "From October 1, 2007, Geneon USA will focus mainly on management of its works portfolio." Based on that comment, I'd say we can probably wave goodbye to anime releases by Geneon that the company hasn't directly funded. It's also a little worrying that it says "works portfolio", there is no indication made that the company will continue to actively pursue new licenses.

 

[melonpan]

I'd check what Kadokawa have licensed, but AnimeNewsNetwork is down.

FMP Second Raid for a start, I know a lot of people are frustrated that hasn't made it to the UK yet.

Ah yes, well, Revelation would have to negotiate with Kadokawa, and Funimation for it, so I can see it taking as much time as Haruhi to release. Although probably a bit quicker because it's a more straight forward release, with no limited edition things except an artbox.

Found the list, just The Third being the last Kadokawa license, and that was a release with The Right Stuf International, who seem to have absolutely no series released in the UK from scanning their list. So that's the least likely (if not impossible) series to have released here.

 

[Arbalest]

I'd check what Kadokawa have licensed, but AnimeNewsNetwork is down.

FMP Second Raid for a start, I know a lot of people are frustrated that hasn't made it to the UK yet.

I am a bit miffed that that hasn't actually got a UK release as yet but i have the whole set in R1 so its not so much a bother to me.

 

[melonpan]

there is no indication made that the company will continue to actively pursue new licenses.

That seems to be the case, although, Geneon have a lot of titles that haven't got a release yet, so if they are going to be a licensing company I'm sure they'll exist for at least all of 2008. I'm sure Dentsu won't let them not license anything, they need to make money somehow or their investment wouldn't be worth it.

EDIT: More on Kadokawa. I guess once the first Kadokawa license gets a UK release, we have contact with Kadokawa. I think that makes sense. I guess it's just establishing the relationships, which I'm sure Andrew from Beez is working extremely hard on - knowing what a gold mine Haruhi is. I hope Bandai are helping them with that, and likewise for Funimation helping Revelation get FMP:TSR. But then again I don't know what involvement US production/distribution companies have with UK distributors.

EDIT 2: Oh-ho-ho, we have Boogiepop Phantom released by ADV, that was a Rightstuf license, so we do have contact with Rightstuf, so The Third isn't totally out of the picture, I'm thinking ADV would probably license that if the chance came. So basically, we've got Revelation (probably), Beez and ADV (possibly) working on Kadokawa licenses.

 

[Noratav]

Just discussing this on IRC.

Along with all the other possible future disasters of the destruction of releasing many current Geneon titles.

That 2 billion Yen fund for the international promotion of Guardian of the Sacred Spirit is something to be watched to see what happens there. It was obviously going to be one of Geneon's big 2008 series, but what if Geneon goes under... Surely there must be a contingency plan for all these possible things that could go wrong...

I'm dying for more information, literally.
*begins to keel over*

The 2 billion yen find has almost certainly disappeared. D-Rights (who were Dentsu's partner in the fund) acquired a stake in Geneon as part of the deal that created it. D-rights have since sold their stake in Geneon back to Dentsu, which indicates that they've pulled out of the deal entirely. Dentsu may have panicked as a result and are shutting down (or effectively shutting down), the loss making USA branch of Geneon, as a method of plugging the hole in the anime division the collapse of the fund has created. I would be utterly amazed if Geneon had made a profit over the past few years, the US anime market is suffering badly at the moment, and Geneon haven't really done anything to adjust to the situation. More worringly, the head of Media Blasters has dropped some heavy hints over at AoD that Geneon may be shut down entirely.

Not that this really affects the UK market, which isn't experiencing the same problems as the US. It's one less company to license from, but MVM will simply have to adjust. How about licensing some Kadokawa titles, Tony?

 

[Mohawk52]

The way I read that Dentsu report is that they have withdrawn the deal instead of ADV refusing it. Though it doesn't say so, I get the feeling that perhaps Dentsu has been approached by someone else with a better distribution offer and ADV has been gosundered. Watch this space.