CitizenGeek
Guild Member
I was 7 when Final Fantasy VII came out, so I can't remember any such decent conversations. Was anyone even talking about Final Fantasy in the West before FFVII though?
Final Fantasy XIII, you are my only hope...
- Thread starter Lupus
- Start date
Aion
Time-Traveller
Gays, quit arguing. You're going to make Retro leave again. ******* idiots!
FFX is, quite possibly, taking into consideration the money and time Square had, the worst main series FF. It took away freedom; removing the world map and something that made 'old school' PS1 RPGs awesome: traveling around in airships. The linearity, the cutout characters, the poor dialogue (laaaaaaugh, and the world laughs with youuuuuuuuuuuuuu) and lack of a proper villain all combined to pull it down into the ground. There was even a gigantic turd creature (creatively) called Sin. There was also the wonderful creation known as the sphere board, which required a ******* long time to upgrade **** in an unclear manner. Really, the best part about it was bliitzball, and that got old very, very quickly.
Square followed that up with a MMORPG. It wasn't a proper FF; it was a MMORPG. You'd inject 400 hours into it, feel cheated and quit - that's how it goes with those type of games. Yellow birds and white dwarfs aside, it wasn't a FF.
And, ending the FF on a low note, following creating a FF for girls/queers, Square decided to change the FF formula; basing FFXII on FFXI's MMORPG gameplay. The MMORPG elements allowed it to be insanely addictive early on but, in truth, the gameplay wasn't in-depth or interesting enough to carry a 100+ (possibly) hour game. After 40 odd hours, it got dull. And the story was such a mess that, by the end, I no longer knew or cared about what was going on, who was dying and why I was killing monsters. Basically, it became a MMORPG, minus the online part and added depth/add-ons that extend the game time to crazy numbers. The story writers had no clue how to connect to players on an emotional level.
FFXII could've been saved had the characters been well developed. But Vaan, the lead, was put in late in the day; the disgraced knight being the original lead. Someone at Square wanted a ladyboy, with cliched dreams of flying in the sky as the lead instead, and that's what ended up happening. The end result was Vaan having no connection to what was going on after the start, leaving the secondary characters playing more important roles, like Asch. Worse yet, character development occurred very little, with there being one facepalm part worthy point in particular whee - after hours of nothing - all the cast had to explain their motivations; just in case the player had forgot.
Where does this leave FFXIII? Well, it'll sell like mad because it's FF, but Square have long since lost their luster. Ever since the end of the PS1 era, they've been no better than any other RPG developer; they just have more money to throw at their titles. All the FFXIII trailers had going for them was visuals, and that's pretty much all the game will have going for it. Like Crisis Core on the PSP, it'll attract graphic whores, impress them and get high ratings, but it'll never be a great game. Square just don't have the ability to produce a great game anymore.
And, CG, you can't call something "genre defining" when you haven't even played any niche titles. That's like calling Naruto the best anime ever when you haven't seen anything else. Or ******* Evangelion.
FFX is, quite possibly, taking into consideration the money and time Square had, the worst main series FF. It took away freedom; removing the world map and something that made 'old school' PS1 RPGs awesome: traveling around in airships. The linearity, the cutout characters, the poor dialogue (laaaaaaugh, and the world laughs with youuuuuuuuuuuuuu) and lack of a proper villain all combined to pull it down into the ground. There was even a gigantic turd creature (creatively) called Sin. There was also the wonderful creation known as the sphere board, which required a ******* long time to upgrade **** in an unclear manner. Really, the best part about it was bliitzball, and that got old very, very quickly.
Square followed that up with a MMORPG. It wasn't a proper FF; it was a MMORPG. You'd inject 400 hours into it, feel cheated and quit - that's how it goes with those type of games. Yellow birds and white dwarfs aside, it wasn't a FF.
And, ending the FF on a low note, following creating a FF for girls/queers, Square decided to change the FF formula; basing FFXII on FFXI's MMORPG gameplay. The MMORPG elements allowed it to be insanely addictive early on but, in truth, the gameplay wasn't in-depth or interesting enough to carry a 100+ (possibly) hour game. After 40 odd hours, it got dull. And the story was such a mess that, by the end, I no longer knew or cared about what was going on, who was dying and why I was killing monsters. Basically, it became a MMORPG, minus the online part and added depth/add-ons that extend the game time to crazy numbers. The story writers had no clue how to connect to players on an emotional level.
FFXII could've been saved had the characters been well developed. But Vaan, the lead, was put in late in the day; the disgraced knight being the original lead. Someone at Square wanted a ladyboy, with cliched dreams of flying in the sky as the lead instead, and that's what ended up happening. The end result was Vaan having no connection to what was going on after the start, leaving the secondary characters playing more important roles, like Asch. Worse yet, character development occurred very little, with there being one facepalm part worthy point in particular whee - after hours of nothing - all the cast had to explain their motivations; just in case the player had forgot.
Where does this leave FFXIII? Well, it'll sell like mad because it's FF, but Square have long since lost their luster. Ever since the end of the PS1 era, they've been no better than any other RPG developer; they just have more money to throw at their titles. All the FFXIII trailers had going for them was visuals, and that's pretty much all the game will have going for it. Like Crisis Core on the PSP, it'll attract graphic whores, impress them and get high ratings, but it'll never be a great game. Square just don't have the ability to produce a great game anymore.
And, CG, you can't call something "genre defining" when you haven't even played any niche titles. That's like calling Naruto the best anime ever when you haven't seen anything else. Or ******* Evangelion.
CitizenGeek said:
Readers of Super Play would've been rather familiar with the series, given the magazine's strong focus on the Japanese market, and there was a fairly reasonable bit of talk about the series in those days--I think EDGE reviewed Final Fantasy VI way back...though I believe it was scored 8/10. It was higher than Chrono Trigger's [7], at least. I recall FF being something of an enigma, given its re-numbering, and everything. Could just be rose-tinted spectacles on my part, mind.
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
Aion, you're projecting your own bitter and overstated opinions onto everyone else. Do you really think most people, most RPG fans, most FF fans agree with you? Of course they don't - they wouldn't have bought FFXII if FFX was as horrible as you say. They wouldn't have bought FFX-2, either. They wouldn't spend money on merchandise and soundtracks and special edition PSPs if they honestly thought the series had lost it's "luster". And they wouldn't be about to drop €60 next March on the next instalment in the series, as I know they will. You're even contradicting yourself - saying FFX is horrific in how much of a failure it is, and still going on to expend time and money on FFXII. I can only imagine that this blatent inconsistency reflects the fact that you are greatly over-exaggerating your disappointment with post-90s Final Fantasy for whatever reason. Every single numbered entry (that includes FFX and FFXII!) in the series has received universal critical acclaim in Japan, the U.S. and Europe. Japanese gamers (through a large Famitsu poll) voted FFX their all-time favourite game in 2006, the same year that EDGE (perhaps the most respected videogame magazine in the West) named Final Fantasy XII as the game of the year.
This notion that Final Fantasy has been of a progressively lower quality and has been less popular since FFIX is simply not borne out by the evidence. Clearly some very loud people on the internet have a problem with the series on PS2, but these people are very much a small minority (who don't even believe their own harsh criticisms of the post-FFIX series as we can see from their continued purchasing of the newest iterations of the series).
I think someone missed the point in a spectacular fashion. Even though you acknowledge Ashe and Basch and other characters had a greater role in the story than Vaan, you still call them "secondary characters"? Is it not mind-numbingly obvious that they are in fact the primary characters and Vaan is just an observer? I would have thought so.
Yeah .... of course, the millions of people that will buy FFXIII in Europe and the US and that have already done so in Japan are just mindless zombies who in reality hate the series and what it's "become" but are compelled somehow to spend their money and expend their time on the newest instalment anyway? And videogame critics are just graphic whores who couldn't possibly arrive at any reasonable opinion about a game they've spent 60+ hours playing because it simply looks pretty and that's good enough? Keep telling yourself that. I know you're angry that Final Fantasy is different to when you were a child, but you're delusional if you think most people agree with you. Clearly, they don't. You should stop acting like your opinions are anything more than fringe.
I don't know how you think you know of every single game I've ever played, but I'm fairly certain you don't. And even if I had never played a videogame before, there are enough people who do play videogames for a living that have described the series as such.
This notion that Final Fantasy has been of a progressively lower quality and has been less popular since FFIX is simply not borne out by the evidence. Clearly some very loud people on the internet have a problem with the series on PS2, but these people are very much a small minority (who don't even believe their own harsh criticisms of the post-FFIX series as we can see from their continued purchasing of the newest iterations of the series).
Aion said:
I think someone missed the point in a spectacular fashion. Even though you acknowledge Ashe and Basch and other characters had a greater role in the story than Vaan, you still call them "secondary characters"? Is it not mind-numbingly obvious that they are in fact the primary characters and Vaan is just an observer? I would have thought so.
Yeah .... of course, the millions of people that will buy FFXIII in Europe and the US and that have already done so in Japan are just mindless zombies who in reality hate the series and what it's "become" but are compelled somehow to spend their money and expend their time on the newest instalment anyway? And videogame critics are just graphic whores who couldn't possibly arrive at any reasonable opinion about a game they've spent 60+ hours playing because it simply looks pretty and that's good enough? Keep telling yourself that. I know you're angry that Final Fantasy is different to when you were a child, but you're delusional if you think most people agree with you. Clearly, they don't. You should stop acting like your opinions are anything more than fringe.
I don't know how you think you know of every single game I've ever played, but I'm fairly certain you don't. And even if I had never played a videogame before, there are enough people who do play videogames for a living that have described the series as such.
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
I agree, I loved FFX. It's battle system was the most refined in the series, the story was one of the most compelling, the characters were all likable and it was a proper adventure with lots of twists and turns. It's also absolutely gorgeous to look at and the music is fantastic.
Damn it you two. It's Christmas, Aion and Citizengeek. You shouldn't be tearing each other's head off.
Aion, all previous Final Fantasy were 'linear'. Even if you have the whole world to 'explore', you couldn't do so near the end. I mean, really... Final Fantasy, especially VII and VIII, have you going from village to village to a dungeon and repeat. Sure, you can revisit them, but they 'quickly' lose their purpose. Or in cases, gain a second purpose to advance the storyline.
That's why frankly... it makes no difference if it's linear and put you through a straight corridor. X has no excuse really. They are on a pilgrimage, yet they can stray off course and do something else. FFXIII is built around being 'on the run'. Really, there's no time to be dilly-dalling.
Sure, you have the whole world... or an whole area in a world map. But what can you do with it? You'll find a house that stood there on its own, maybe. But that's it. Really, Aion, if you want non-linear, play Final Fantasy VI, because frankly, Final Fantasy VII is as linear. At least in VI, you have more freedom than VII.
Oh, I'm not justifying X. Don't get me wrong. It's quite 'terrible' for my liking.
Aion said:
Aion, all previous Final Fantasy were 'linear'. Even if you have the whole world to 'explore', you couldn't do so near the end. I mean, really... Final Fantasy, especially VII and VIII, have you going from village to village to a dungeon and repeat. Sure, you can revisit them, but they 'quickly' lose their purpose. Or in cases, gain a second purpose to advance the storyline.
That's why frankly... it makes no difference if it's linear and put you through a straight corridor. X has no excuse really. They are on a pilgrimage, yet they can stray off course and do something else. FFXIII is built around being 'on the run'. Really, there's no time to be dilly-dalling.
Sure, you have the whole world... or an whole area in a world map. But what can you do with it? You'll find a house that stood there on its own, maybe. But that's it. Really, Aion, if you want non-linear, play Final Fantasy VI, because frankly, Final Fantasy VII is as linear. At least in VI, you have more freedom than VII.
Oh, I'm not justifying X. Don't get me wrong. It's quite 'terrible' for my liking.
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
Lupus said:
Well at least you admit it. I hate Final Fantasy fandom, too. It's inane, hysterical, etc. Just like most fandoms. Your problem isn't with the games, it's with the fans. You should make that distinction.
Aion
Time-Traveller
http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/12/2 ... tasy-xiii/
I'm good at this judging without playing/watching lark.
I'm good at this judging without playing/watching lark.
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
To be honest, a lot of the changes mentioned as "bad things" on that website don't really bother me, at least theoretically. Online shopping is just fine as I can't say that entering and exiting physical shops was truly an enjoyable part of the game. I don't mind linearity (and it is only for half of the game), and the lack of towns doesn't bother me so much either. There weren't many "towns" in FFXII, either. Four big cities (Rabanastre, Archadia, Nalbina and Bhujerba), and some villages is all I can think of being in FFXII and I hardly even noticed it. Hmm, just thinking of FFXII reminds me of how much I'll miss the style and design of that game in this next instalment :'[
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
I was thinking that would be the case. What is it about new Final Fantasy that drives some people nuts? Is it because for these people, they played the games when they were young and it is part of their childhood and they just freak out when they realise that playing videogames in your 20s isn't the same as playing videogames when you're 10? I don't get it ...
Aion
Time-Traveller
Only someone experienced and old enough to have played through the best PS1 titles could understand the transformation the genre has had since graphics have improved. Although there have been a few gems, for the most part originality has been non-existent; stories have been woeful, generic rubbish; the characters have been cardboard cutouts and, bit by bit, the freedom that made the genre special has been stripped away.
A kid whose first FF was number X; a kid who hasn't played much of anything outside of FF, could never understand. Square now aim games at your generation; those pleased by looks rather than anything close to substance. Rogue Galaxy is the sort that would please you.
Also, Chrono: In FFVII, fairly early on you can get two extra characters. And, when you can access the sea, an entirely optional, huge island, full of monsters perfect for leveling up opens up, the island in question having a big town with a lot of side stuff to do in it. Sure, like every game, FFVII was linear to a certain extent in order to connect the dots, but there's a difference between being given a single path to follow and being pushed along by the story.
The ability to explore a world map, going back and forth at will, may be no more than an illusion of freedom. However, being able to only select dots on a map, rather than actually handling the travel between areas, makes most RPGs (Grandia is special) give off a claustrophobic vibe, and combined with FFX's linearity - as well as its over flaws - it ruined it.
OT: The Japanese aren't happy, the GameFAQs posters aren't happy (even a 9/10 review amusingly launched an attack on FFXII for its terrible characters) and, so far, it seems to be mainly the well paid pro-reviewers who, as per usual, scored a big name highly. Big scores lead to big profits, and Square clearly know how to pay for success. You should only ever trust player reviews these days.
A kid whose first FF was number X; a kid who hasn't played much of anything outside of FF, could never understand. Square now aim games at your generation; those pleased by looks rather than anything close to substance. Rogue Galaxy is the sort that would please you.
Also, Chrono: In FFVII, fairly early on you can get two extra characters. And, when you can access the sea, an entirely optional, huge island, full of monsters perfect for leveling up opens up, the island in question having a big town with a lot of side stuff to do in it. Sure, like every game, FFVII was linear to a certain extent in order to connect the dots, but there's a difference between being given a single path to follow and being pushed along by the story.
The ability to explore a world map, going back and forth at will, may be no more than an illusion of freedom. However, being able to only select dots on a map, rather than actually handling the travel between areas, makes most RPGs (Grandia is special) give off a claustrophobic vibe, and combined with FFX's linearity - as well as its over flaws - it ruined it.
OT: The Japanese aren't happy, the GameFAQs posters aren't happy (even a 9/10 review amusingly launched an attack on FFXII for its terrible characters) and, so far, it seems to be mainly the well paid pro-reviewers who, as per usual, scored a big name highly. Big scores lead to big profits, and Square clearly know how to pay for success. You should only ever trust player reviews these days.
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
It's hard to read your posts and not be struck by the fact that it all seems to be based very much on nostalgia. I can't believe you're being objective when you say FFVII and FFX are that radically different from one another in any way other than the superficial. There's lots and lots of extra quests, extra areas, extra dungeons, etc. in FFX. The characters are not any less, or any more, well developed than in FFVII, the plot and setting are equally as ridiculous and overblown. If you want to reduce Final Fantasy VII to the ability to fly around in an airship for 30 seconds before reaching a new destination and Wutai, then fair enough, but I really don't see the big deal.
Also, I'm getting a little bit tired of your assertions that the only videogames I've ever played are Final Fantasy. Honestly, how do you think you know what I've played? :s
Also, I'm getting a little bit tired of your assertions that the only videogames I've ever played are Final Fantasy. Honestly, how do you think you know what I've played? :s
Nostalgia is part of the problem, changes occurred and it was fine but with each new installment Final Fantasy becomes less and less what it was meant to be. I mean, I replayed VII recently (Very good game, discarding the ret-con Compilation garbage) and it's a prime example of the glory of Final Fantasy, I mean in VII you even had Sephiroth a mysterious, enigmatic villain, when I first heard of him in game I was like "Who is he!?" and you travel the world chasing him until you first see who he is. He is then made into the lead villain of the game with his goal to destroy the world, but with XII? There is no real "main" villain, there's no build up or anything.
Final Fantasy is changing so much so I don't even recognize the series anymore except for you know... Nomura's signature designs. I personally don't think you'll get it, CitizenGeek, you played the series too late, you're far too accepting. Not that I mean to be bitter with what I say, but it's just how I see it.
As for X, I think this speaks for itself.
Final Fantasy is changing so much so I don't even recognize the series anymore except for you know... Nomura's signature designs. I personally don't think you'll get it, CitizenGeek, you played the series too late, you're far too accepting. Not that I mean to be bitter with what I say, but it's just how I see it.
As for X, I think this speaks for itself.