Final Fantasy Party
- Thread starter Nemphtis
- Start date
Just because a compay ıs mılkıng a franchıse to death wıth an above average sequel does not mean they are doıng somethıng good, especıally ın a tıme where vıdeo games are overrated and 70% of games seem to be above average whıch doesn't really make sense. Squenıx ıs servıng you shıt, but the shıt ıs good. What you seem to be overlookıng ıs the blatant fact that no matter how good that shıt ıs, ıt's stıll shıt... you know - that brown stuff you dump ınto a toılet and watch as ıt flushes away. There's no poınt callıng you a fanboy sınce that may be mıs-judgıng you but ıt's safe to say that your ıdea of a qualıty game slıghtly dıffers from mıne.
Speak of the devıl, I just read news about a new Chocobo game that I wasn't prevıously aware of... It seems Square really want to mılk ıt to the max. I mıss the days where they would announce one Fınal Fantasy game each year or two, where as we seem to be gettıng a new one every two months or somethıng now.
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
Nemphtis said:
Well, whatever about being a Sqaure fanboy, I'm certainly a huge fan of Square Enix. Square's spin-offs are most certainly not '****'. I adore Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus, despite not being the perfect or revolutionary game everyone seemed to expect, was great fun. The re-releases are great for me and other "newer" fans of the series, as we didn't have the chance to play them before - FFIII was never even released outside of Japan before. Also, if the people on the various forums I go to are to be believed, the Chocobo Tales DS game is apparently a lot of fun too. I don't think it's "****" at all, and Square's "spin-offs" are a lot better than most developers main offerings IMO.
If Dırge of Cerberus was not developed by Square or dıd not have the Fınal Fantasy name ın ıt's tıtle, ıt would be nameless junk. Can you honestly tell me on these boards that ıf Dırge of Cerberus was called Super Shooter 2007 and developed by Goo-Goo Studıos you would go out and say "Wow thıs game looks good - well worth my thırty quıd!" and that ıs the poınt whıch ıs beıng made here, many mındless fans buy a game just because of the tıtle or the reputatıon and they can't face the musıc because nobody can hear ıt over Square runnıng around lıke the pıper lurıng the Squenıx fans away from the townsfolk.
I dıdn't say anythıng about Fınal Fantasy III - that ıs not a re-release because you just stated yourself that ıt was never avaılable to us before. I also dıdn't say anythıng about Chocobo Tales, I'm talkıng about a new Chocobo game that was recently announced even when Chocobo Tales has barely just come out. Thıs ıs my poınt, you're talkıng about Chocobo Tales and shock-horror Squenıx have already released a new Chocobo game, wow that was quıck eh?
Look at Metal Gear Ac!d, I'm a Metal Gear fan but can I honestly defend Konamı for that game? Hell no - ıt sucked and I admıt ıt. Would ıt have even sold half as much ıf ıt wasn't by Konamı or tıtled Metal Gear? Very un-lıkely.
PS. By the tıme thıs topıc dıes, Square wıll surely release a few new Fınal Fantasy games. So let's celebrate ın advance for 'Fınal Fantasy Chocobo Assassın DS' and 'Fınal Fantasy Crystal Chronıcles: The Mıdget Who Holds The Lantern'. The sad truth ıs that as long as there are suckers who eat up anythıng a developer wıll throw out then there's nothıng stoppıng a developer from keepıng ıt up. Square ıs makıng money, people are complaınıng about stupıd sequels but there are enough people who gobble them all up to keep the company happy.
I suppose I've made my poınt as clear as day now.
I dıdn't say anythıng about Fınal Fantasy III - that ıs not a re-release because you just stated yourself that ıt was never avaılable to us before. I also dıdn't say anythıng about Chocobo Tales, I'm talkıng about a new Chocobo game that was recently announced even when Chocobo Tales has barely just come out. Thıs ıs my poınt, you're talkıng about Chocobo Tales and shock-horror Squenıx have already released a new Chocobo game, wow that was quıck eh?
Look at Metal Gear Ac!d, I'm a Metal Gear fan but can I honestly defend Konamı for that game? Hell no - ıt sucked and I admıt ıt. Would ıt have even sold half as much ıf ıt wasn't by Konamı or tıtled Metal Gear? Very un-lıkely.
PS. By the tıme thıs topıc dıes, Square wıll surely release a few new Fınal Fantasy games. So let's celebrate ın advance for 'Fınal Fantasy Chocobo Assassın DS' and 'Fınal Fantasy Crystal Chronıcles: The Mıdget Who Holds The Lantern'. The sad truth ıs that as long as there are suckers who eat up anythıng a developer wıll throw out then there's nothıng stoppıng a developer from keepıng ıt up. Square ıs makıng money, people are complaınıng about stupıd sequels but there are enough people who gobble them all up to keep the company happy.
I suppose I've made my poınt as clear as day now.
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
Nemphtis said:
But that's a silly thing to say - Dirge of Cerberus is defined as being a pseudo-sequel to FFVII. That's it's raison d'étre - if you strip away the FFVII stuff of DoC, then it's not DoC. The reason I enjoyed it so was because it offered a fun game and a chance to see one of the coolest and most mysterious characters ever in gaming, let alone in FFVII, have his story properly concluded.
I've seen this argument before, and it really doesn't make sense. I think people just expected DoC to be refined perfection (because that's what you get with most FF titles), but it's ridiculous to expect that from Square, who've never made a 3rd-person shooter. Besides, the game was cheaper than most new games anyway.
I was well aware of Chocobo Tales on Wii when I said what I did.
Anyway, I don't get why people have this problem with Square Enix releasing so many FF related games. I mean, no one is forcing you to buy them and it hasn't made Squenix lose focus on what it would usually be making, anyway. FFXIII is still being developed, so is DQIX, a KH inteval game is on the way, and they recently announced Star Ocean 4 and they're experimenting with a totally unique game with It's A Wonderful World.
If you take away these "evil" spin-offs and re-releases then do you really think Square Enix would be making more games? I doubt it. If you get rid of the spin offs then we're left waiting years and years for the next FF or DQ or GameArts game with nothing in between like the case once was with Square Enix. All companies will try to make money as efficiently as possible, Squenix are no exception to this and neither is Sony or EA or Microsoft or, especially, Nintendo.
And who can say they honestly don't want to play FFIV in 3D or that Crisis Core isn't appealing?
I don't think it is :s
I think it's more of a problem that this crap is selling whilst people could be looking for better, more original games. Playing any of the number of better shooters than DOC rather than wasting their time on it because it 'advances' a story already violated by the world's most substanceless movie sequel and a legion of other mediocre titles.CitizenGeek said:
The discomfort is with having such a prominent and measurable indicator of consumer stupidity. It makes you petrified everytime you ride the bus into town.
If we're honest here, you're right. They're churning out the same old crap as ever, they're just not pretending it's new anymore.CitizenGeek said:
So they're expanding everyone of their other tired franchises and making a single original game? The problem is that they're churning out so many titles, and 99.5% of these titles are sequels, remakes and franchise flab. Why is that a good thing when (assuming there is actually ANY talent left at Square Enix) they could be churning out 50 'It's a Wonderful World's instead of 50 games that offer nothing new.CitizenGeek said:
These games don't make themselves. Programmers, artists and what have you are all being tied up making these games instead of working on something else. The only reason they wouldn't be making something else would simply be if they didn't have the talent to make something worthwhile, and were meanwhile passing off turd with a brand name... but you wouldn't say that, would you?CitizenGeek said:
Between 1999 and 2003 (the year of the first spin-off), there was a new Final Fantasy game released every year. Even before then, there were two FF games released in 1997, to tide people over to the next installment. It's pathetic to hear someone say that they are left waiting 'years and years' for a new computer game, when in fact it's usually only a single year. Tell it to people waiting weeks for food, years for the fall of dictatorships and fans of the Half-Life series. Because damnit, we wait 6 years for a sequel and know a thing or two about patienceCitizenGeek said:
edit: I declare QUOTE AVALANCHE!!!!!!!
awadama
Mad Scientist
But really, it doesn't matter if all they're doing is pumping out the same stuff over and over. :?
Loads of people still buy FF (or Pokemon or GTA or Tomb Raider or whatever) games, so the developer makes lots of money from them. I fail to see what financial benefit would come from scrapping them.
Maybe there'd be some artistic merit or something, but art doesn't pay mortgages.
Maybe Michael Owen isn't as good as he used to be, but he makes a fortune playing football...he'd be stupid to quit to be a plumber instead.
As long as people are still buying FF/DQ games, I don't see a good reason Square Enix should stop making them.
Loads of people still buy FF (or Pokemon or GTA or Tomb Raider or whatever) games, so the developer makes lots of money from them. I fail to see what financial benefit would come from scrapping them.
Maybe there'd be some artistic merit or something, but art doesn't pay mortgages.
Maybe Michael Owen isn't as good as he used to be, but he makes a fortune playing football...he'd be stupid to quit to be a plumber instead.
As long as people are still buying FF/DQ games, I don't see a good reason Square Enix should stop making them.
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
You seem to really dislike Square Enix, so I don't think much of your argument is based on logic, merely on some unexplained disdain. I will, however, respond to this:
Well, you see, Final Fantasy isn't a 'tired series' - it reinvents itself every incarnation. FFXIII is going to be a very, very original game, just like FFXII was and just like FFX was and so on. Just because they've got a roman numeral and Final Fantasy in their title, that doesn't mean they aren't going to be unique. FFXII is probably one of the most unique games of last year and Edge acknolwedged this by chosing that game over all the rest for it's game of the year.
Be not mistaken, FF is not a tired series. And if you think the definition of a "unique" game is a unique title, then you're sadly mistaken
kupoartist said:
Well, you see, Final Fantasy isn't a 'tired series' - it reinvents itself every incarnation. FFXIII is going to be a very, very original game, just like FFXII was and just like FFX was and so on. Just because they've got a roman numeral and Final Fantasy in their title, that doesn't mean they aren't going to be unique. FFXII is probably one of the most unique games of last year and Edge acknolwedged this by chosing that game over all the rest for it's game of the year.
Be not mistaken, FF is not a tired series. And if you think the definition of a "unique" game is a unique title, then you're sadly mistaken
CitizenGeek said:
5 years... because Square Enix were concentrating all their cash and resources on spin-offs.
I'd rather have lots of proper installments in the series than a shooter, a fighter, a kid's game, a movie sequel, an action prequel... FF in no longer a series, it's a series of series.
I have many fond teenager memories of the Playstation era FFs, and it feels to me like Square Enix have decided, eight years later, to destroy those memories. Take FFVII. I liked the ending, I didn't need a "what happened next?" movie that was nothing but fighting with no real plot. I don't want a, quite frankly, awful shooter game that rips off Devil May Cry in style, starring gay Vincent. I don't want to know what Zack's story is, I learned enough in the original game. He dated Aeris, worked alongside Sephiroth, got experimented on and then got shot by nameless soldiers. I don't need a linear action game to explain all this in greater detail, with loads of random new characters that obviously were never intended to exist back in 1997. Seeing Sephiroth's sillhoette in a trailer does not make me want a game.
A few years ago, seeing a new FF logo made me excited. Now I see one every month.
*edit* I got bored and made a graph to illustrate just how stupid all the spinning off and remaking is getting. Big image, 56k beware.
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7469/ffgraphmx3.png
It is based off Japanese release dates, doesn't include movies, includes KH games as spin-offs, and compilations are recorded as one game in port/remake, unless there are significant upgrades to each game, in which it is counted as the number of games in the compilation (which was never more than two anyway).
Note the number of spin-offs peaks at five in 2007 and 2008/TBA, the number of remakes/ports peaks at five in 1999 and 2004, and the number of titles in the main series peaks at... one.
If anything, I've illustrated that FF is spun-off an awful lot.
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I think you lot forget that if you really feel so passionately that square is this greedy evil company you can just stop buying the games.
But it's clear that most of you have brought the truly truly awful dirge of Cerberus it's definetly not a good shooting game but I've played worse.
But the thing is there not bad games hell there not good games and there major selling point is the ff chacters.
Rember the final fantasy movie spirit within?if the fans really think all this stuff is so awful they would drop it and ask for refunds in record times because that movie was so awful it nearly bankrupted square.
But it's clear that most of you have brought the truly truly awful dirge of Cerberus it's definetly not a good shooting game but I've played worse.
But the thing is there not bad games hell there not good games and there major selling point is the ff chacters.
Rember the final fantasy movie spirit within?if the fans really think all this stuff is so awful they would drop it and ask for refunds in record times because that movie was so awful it nearly bankrupted square.
X_nick_X said:
Been there, done that. Don't get me wrong, I didn't buy DoC. I'll admit I bought FFIII, but it recieved good reviews and I wanted to play the only offline title in the main series that I hadn't yet, but after watching Advent Children I realised it had gone too far, and made a pact not to buy FF spin-offs without a great reason.
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
Espy said:
That, I'm afraid, is (much like the rest of that there argument) is nonsense. FFXII took so long because of a number of reasons - and Square Enix pumping resources into spin-offs/remakes is not one of them. FFXII's creator, Yasumi Matsuno, became ill halfway through the development of the game and the rest of the team needed a lot more time to get to grips with Matsuno's foundations and build upon them. In fact, Square Enix's market value took a significant plunge because FFXII was delayed.
Quite frankly, thinking Square Enix would delay FFXII just so it could make more spin-offs and remakes is ridiculous. FFXII sold around has sold around 5 million worldwide, whereas the various spin-offs and remakes that were in development during FFXII's development have most likely not even sold that much combined. It doesn't even make sense from a business perspective to delay FFXII just to concentrate on spin-offs and remakes.
What? FFXIII is still on the way. Without all the remakes and spin-offs, you'd still be getting FFXIII in the distant future. This kind of argument just doesn't make sense. I think people who think like you have just invented this situation in your heads - As I've already shown, Square Enix do not and would not take resources from the development of a main FF game to put them into a remake or a spin-off - it just doesn't happen.
Then why did you watch it?
I don't understand why you're acting as though Square Enix are forcing you to watch things you don't want to, or play games you don't want to. They're not forcing you to do anything - the FFVII sequels and prequels are there for people like me - who craved to know more about the characters of FFVII after the ending credits.
I'm well aware of the problems FFXII encountered, but it frustrated me immensely to see SE waste so much of their resources on spin-offs, many of which could have been good stand-alone series, but had the FF label slapped on it in order to sell more. I didn't say that SE delibaretely held back FFXII to sell more spin-offs, I said if they concentrated more resources on it, and managed to get it out quickly, we may even be on FFXVI by now. There was a time when there was a main title every year or two. I don't think at all that the obscene number of spin-offs is in no way related to the sudden abandon in the one game every year or two rule. SE are showing no signs of going back to that tradition after FFXII, their current attitude is "FFXIII? Yeah, when it's ready. Here, a 3D FFIV!", so saying that FFXII was a standalone case is wrong. I personally thought SE had hit a whole new low when they announced the FFXIII spin-offs ALONGSIDE FFXIII, but that's another story. Anyway, I find it strange that you dwelled so much on that comment, as it was almost throwaway and does not affect my arguement at all.
And don't give me the "If you don't like it, don't buy it". I am doing just that, but as a long time fan of the series, I have a right to say what I think of the decisions made about the series and it's titles. The people who do buy the games always give me the "it's not for you" attitude. Well, it was for me, and suddenly SE changed their perspective on the series, and it seemed like SE decided to stop catering for me. When you're a fan, and you have supported a series for years with your own money, you have a right to be annoyed if they stop making products you wish to buy.
And Advent Children... FFVII was a game that was "finished" for what, seven, eight years before the spin-offs started, and I was happy with it. The only thing I heard when SE cracked open the FFVII file again was the money. I did watch AC, I had hopes that it would be a film that would have a good follow-up plot, but all I got was over-the-top fights. The plot felt like it was tacked on to a complete story (as I'm sure all the other spin-offs are), which is one of my pet hates.
Anyway, regardless of how much we debate, in the end there are going to be people that like the spin-offs, and people that don't. We're not going to change each other's minds, and we're certainly not going to change SE's mind, as the spin-offs still sell. I've pretty much abandoned FF games, aside from the odd few, and I now buy RPGs from other companies. Level 5 games are fantastic, and Mistwalker look like they have potential. They have Uematsu. As a music lover, he made FF what it was to me, and I'm glad to see him composing full soundtracks again. To be honest, he's what I miss most about older FF games.
And don't give me the "If you don't like it, don't buy it". I am doing just that, but as a long time fan of the series, I have a right to say what I think of the decisions made about the series and it's titles. The people who do buy the games always give me the "it's not for you" attitude. Well, it was for me, and suddenly SE changed their perspective on the series, and it seemed like SE decided to stop catering for me. When you're a fan, and you have supported a series for years with your own money, you have a right to be annoyed if they stop making products you wish to buy.
And Advent Children... FFVII was a game that was "finished" for what, seven, eight years before the spin-offs started, and I was happy with it. The only thing I heard when SE cracked open the FFVII file again was the money. I did watch AC, I had hopes that it would be a film that would have a good follow-up plot, but all I got was over-the-top fights. The plot felt like it was tacked on to a complete story (as I'm sure all the other spin-offs are), which is one of my pet hates.
Anyway, regardless of how much we debate, in the end there are going to be people that like the spin-offs, and people that don't. We're not going to change each other's minds, and we're certainly not going to change SE's mind, as the spin-offs still sell. I've pretty much abandoned FF games, aside from the odd few, and I now buy RPGs from other companies. Level 5 games are fantastic, and Mistwalker look like they have potential. They have Uematsu. As a music lover, he made FF what it was to me, and I'm glad to see him composing full soundtracks again. To be honest, he's what I miss most about older FF games.
I ran this through babelfish and recieved: "You dislike a company who I like, I cannot be bothered to listen to you since any opinion you have is therefore clearly invalid because it dares to be different to mine".CitizenGeek said:
Babelfish is really getting more accurate these days.
Of course it does dear. The way Final Fantasy has evolved Windows Start Menu Gameplay since its first incarnation, is nothing short of phenomenal, and I just love those brilliant new storylines they come up with. I've certainly never seen 'my daddy is a whale' outside of that one Jerry Springer special. Oh wait, that's because it's utterly daft... but I've certainly never seen 2-10 heroes and 3 heroines battle some pantomime villian trying to take over the world, using magic or a particularly strong type of magic before... Certainly no 'variation on a theme' in Final Fantasy at all, no siree.CitizenGeek said:
You just reminded me of http://fpflashfarm.com/FB49PFBFFKJ42BF/367_boco2.swf . Well, except for the fact that the flash version always missed the point of the song entirely.CitizenGeek said:and Edge acknolwedged this by chosing that game over all the rest for it's game of the year.
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
Espy said:
Perhaps you haven't heard, but we're on new consoles now. You know, the PlayStation 3. And in case you didn't notice, it takes longer to make games for PS3. That's the reason FFXIII is going to take so long - not because Square Enix want to make loads of ports and stuff and jepordise FFXIII. If you got your wish, then Square would just put it's entire Final Fantasy staff working on FFXIII and not on other FF-related titles, right? Well, we might get FFXIII quicker, but we'd end up an inferior game. The main idea behind the game would be blurred by lots and lots of ideas from all the other developers working on it.
So what if they announced the spin-offs along with FFXIII? FF Versus XIII and Agito XIII have new characters, new gameplay, new themes. You're dwelling on the name far too much. If FF Versus XIII was named "Dark Stylish Game #1289" would you be happier? It doesn't make sense - Square Enix are making lots of original games (Versus sounds very, very unique) and yet you complain that they all share the FF name?
Well, that was the first thing you said and it seemed to be the basis for your argument.
But, it obviously isn't for you. Unless you are saying Square Enix are targetting the section of it's fans that don't want sequels and spin-offs when they make these extra games.
But that's in no way a fact or a popular opinion. I loved Advent Children - it was stylish and gorgeous to look at, it featured all those excellent characters with voices, great action scenes and a nice conclusion for Cloud's story. The part at the end, where Zack and Aeris's wave to Cloud is very touching and effective and in no way tacked on. And I'm not alone - the inagural Anime US Awards named Advent Children as the best anime of the year.
Yeah, but debates are fun! =)
Mistwalker don't interest me enough to get a 360, I'm afraid and Level 5's best work has been for Square Enix in the form of DQVIII (which is a fantastic game). I think it's a pity you don't bother with Square Enix anymore, you're missing out on some really great games!
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
kupoartist said:
No, it's just this discussion is about the spin-offs and remakes and sequels Square Enix is making and you were not discussing this that much at all. Instead, you were just launching limp, heard-it-all before attacks on Square Enix as a whole. I have no interest whatsoever in discussing Square Enix with somone who obviously dislikes them as much as you do, so I only dealt with the small part of your futile rant that dealt with this subject matter
I know the PS3 takes longer to develop for, that's Sony's fault and a WHOLE different debate. Don't get me started on the PS3 =P
Yes, I would be happier if some of the FF spin-offs didn't have the FF name slapped on them, as some of them are good games and deserve their own series. Crystal Chronicles is an example of that. Take away the chocobos and moogles and you've got a game nothing like FF. Just because a game isn't FF doesn't mean it's not good, I just feel a lot of good potential IPs are going to waste on SE's part.
I thought the FFVII movie was lacking in plot department. Just one thing though?
Of which only a few had any relevance to the plot =P The others were just fan service, and Red had ONE line. That was another thing that annoyed me. I also missed seeing all the locations of the original game. Yes, it is all just opinions. AC was enjoyable, and the music was great, if rehashed, but the film a let-down plot-wise for me.
All this typing is making my fingers sore. I think this debate is getting to the point of repeating itself, so let's let it die down. I think we've had a good enough stab at trying to change each other's opinions >_<
But Level 5 are awesomer than you think. Dark Chronicle is an awesome game, my favourite on the PS2. Keep an eye out on them, they're growing... *suspense*
Sorry if I seemed "angry" earlier on, I was caught up in the debate =P
Yes, I would be happier if some of the FF spin-offs didn't have the FF name slapped on them, as some of them are good games and deserve their own series. Crystal Chronicles is an example of that. Take away the chocobos and moogles and you've got a game nothing like FF. Just because a game isn't FF doesn't mean it's not good, I just feel a lot of good potential IPs are going to waste on SE's part.
I thought the FFVII movie was lacking in plot department. Just one thing though?
Of which only a few had any relevance to the plot =P The others were just fan service, and Red had ONE line. That was another thing that annoyed me. I also missed seeing all the locations of the original game. Yes, it is all just opinions. AC was enjoyable, and the music was great, if rehashed, but the film a let-down plot-wise for me.
All this typing is making my fingers sore. I think this debate is getting to the point of repeating itself, so let's let it die down. I think we've had a good enough stab at trying to change each other's opinions >_<
But Level 5 are awesomer than you think. Dark Chronicle is an awesome game, my favourite on the PS2. Keep an eye out on them, they're growing... *suspense*
Sorry if I seemed "angry" earlier on, I was caught up in the debate =P
CitizenGeek
Guild Member
Espy said:
Yes, but you seemed to be blaming the remakes/spin-offs for extended development plans - when that's not the case, it's the next generation that's to blame and not Square Enixs' spin-offs.
You say Crystal Chronicles is totally unique to other FFs, minues the moogles etc., so what does it matter that the name Final Fantasy is on the box? Without that name, Crystal Chronicles wouldn't have been as noticed as it was and wouldn't have topped in the charts in the US on an unpopular console. I think you place too much value on the name.
Square Enix don't need to give a game a totally new name for it to be unique or inventive. There can and has been lots of innovation within the Final Fantasy series. I don't see what's wrong with this.
I suppose, but it was still very cool to see them all again! =D And the plot was very satisfying for me, I must say!
Fair enough, it was nice exchanging ideas with you =P
But Square Enix are awesomer than you think! =P I've been trying to track down Dark Chronicle for ages, but I can't seem to find it anywhere =(