Everybody Loves Jerome

I think the UK anime industry has some of the most clear cut reps out there. Not saying certain complaints expressed in this thread aren't valid but the "I'll level with ya, here's what's happening" approach we get from them is leagues better than other entertainment arms in the UK right now. I've had a hellish time getting clear answers and respect from game publishers and even a major long running TV channel. Maybe it's just because they know they serve a niche market but the anime reps are genuine and keep fans informed.
 
That said, I think Jerome was incredibly stupid to reveal that Manga were rightsquatting the streaming rights and even more stupid to reveal he was watching it via questionable means. I certainly wouldn't be too upset if anybody admitted to doing the same thing.
What shows are they squatting on the streaming for just for the record?

I think the UK anime industry has some of the most clear cut reps out there. Not saying certain complaints expressed in this thread aren't valid but the "I'll level with ya, here's what's happening" approach we get from them is leagues better than other entertainment arms in the UK right now. I've had a hellish time getting clear answers and respect from game publishers and even a major long running TV channel. Maybe it's just because they know they serve a niche market but the anime reps are genuine and keep fans informed.
Aye but it's an art and Jerome has no nack for it.
 
There's a bit of a big difference between getting to see a theatrical screening the same year it's out in Japan and getting to see a dub-only film aimed at kids or another screening of some classic I first watched on VHS well over a decade ago. I'm glad different types of screening exist, of course, but only one of those things actively interests me, and I'm more than happy to travel up to Glasgow/Edinburgh or some other major city if need be. It's a heck of a lot easier than travelling to Tokyo and no different to having to travel to go to any halfway-decent convention, which is something that affects almost everyone who has ever wanted to attend a convention. The fact that we've been able to see first class films almost day and date with their Japanese release (if we don't mind a bit of travelling) is incredible to think about when you grew up in a world where anime movies were completely off limits until many years had passed (and often still off limits after that, unless they happened to be action-packed or riddled with that cool 90s atmosphere that olde Manga made its trademark).

Even though most of the action is up in Scotland these days - which I can't complain about, since most of the cons are down south and it's awesome to see a region getting such treatment even if it's miles away from where I'm living now - it's not as though Andrew hasn't openly been trying to push anime elsewhere. We had other 'Loves Anime' events bef0re, and I'm pretty sure he's had his fingers in some of the London screenings we've had. There have also been cases of digital distribution for films, and even though they've generally had a frosty reception I deeply appreciate the chance to see things closer to the original release date instead of having to spend months with my fingers in my ears trying to avoid spoilers from people intent on ruining the experience for anyone less fortunate.

(Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing In This Corner of the World.)

Do you think it's safe to assume they're squatting on any Toei show that Saban doesn't have (and even then, given Digimon Adv - Frontier)?

There have been a few hints that Jerome is strongly opposed to streaming to the point where he'd probably try to persuade them not to do it; however, I don't know how much power he holds in that relationship and it's entirely possible that Toei have just misread the UK situation on their own. I have written long posts about how I suspected Manga were rights squatting long before Sakamoto based on stray comments and licensing patterns, but Sakamoto was the first time they openly came out and admitted it (then topped it off with that astoundingly dumb confession that even their own staff members can't handle that restriction and circumvent it, argh).

R
 
Yeah, I don't drive and I don't think I'd be able to get public transport up there, meaning my parents would have to give me a lift, which I'm not sure would even be feasible considering their working hours.
Teesside Park cinema? It is a bit of an **** about to get to via public transport but it can be done - S1 bus from Stockton, S2 from Middlesbrough. And I don't know about Stockton (haven't been there in literally years) but Middlesbrough bus station is easily accessible from the train station, though it might be cheaper to bus it all the way. Never realised you were in my (current) neck of the woods Lemon.

They were supposed to be putting in a train station in at Teesside Park itself at some point (it is right by the line from Middlesbrough to Darlington) but God only knows if or when that will ever happen.
 
Well Digimon was on Amazon and then wasn't within days of Manga's anoucement coming out in the wash so...

I assume that while some contracts are fast tracked as quickly as possible at the start of a season, some involve long term negotiations for a while, so flash decisions might not always be directly controlled by Manga. Manga don't do themselves any favours in the paranoia department by keeping cards close to their chest though. And I don't have any sympathy for a model which works extremely well in Japan and the US (streaming) being outright vetoed in the UK to prop up a dying model solely reliant on physical media sales. It just makes me want to watch physical die even faster so that it stops interfering with my access to anime in a timely and reasonable manner (and I say this as a massive collector of discs).

R
 
Well Digimon was on Amazon and then wasn't within days of Manga's anoucement coming out in the wash so...
Well, chances are Manga did buy streaming rights, based on what we learned from Sakomoto. So whilst we can't be 100% certain, I'd be willing to call it and say the deal with Manga was probably partly, if not wholly, what led to Digimon being pulled from Amazon.

I assume that while some contracts are fast tracked as quickly as possible at the start of a season, some involve long term negotiations for a while, so flash decisions might not always be directly controlled by Manga. Manga don't do themselves any favours in the paranoia department by keeping cards close to their chest though. And I don't have any sympathy for a model which works extremely well in Japan and the US (streaming) being outright vetoed in the UK to prop up a dying model solely reliant on physical media sales. It just makes me want to watch physical die even faster so that it stops interfering with my access to anime in a timely and reasonable manner (and I say this as a massive collector of discs).

R
Not sure you could quite say it's working well in the US, if you believe the apocalyptic prophecies from Henry Goto that cheap anime will end the world and AoA will save anime in the US. :rolleyes: The increased push for Collector's Editions, even though they're mostly crap ones, would indicate that sales of standard editions are declining in the US through streaming, so maybe that does actually back Manga up. (I know, "Just do Collector's Editions then". It sounds like Manga aren't exactly as keen on pushing out the less affluent members of the community as certain other companies and certain other fans. Maybe that's their problem.*)

It sounds like Manga's problems are that Anime Limited has all the titles people would want CEs for, also AL's prices are quite expensive, they're perhaps reducing people's capacity to pay lots of money for Manga's releases of less popular titles (regardless of whether they are CEs or not). And Manga is probably more reliant on traditional sales outlets like HMV, which probably aren't the best place to try and sell a CE.


*That bit's not really aimed at you Rui, I just wanted to preempt certain types of replies.
 
Manga are now too reliant on Sentai, if Sentai get nothing so do Manga. The most recent Comic con proves they are literally getting the scraps left over. Not everything deserves a CE either but the computer games industry is now facing similar issues with physical releases increasingly pushing CE.
 
Not sure you could quite say it's working well in the US, if you believe the apocalyptic prophecies from Henry Goto that cheap anime will end the world and AoA will save anime in the US. :rolleyes: The increased push for Collector's Editions, even though they're mostly crap ones, would indicate that sales of standard editions are declining in the US through streaming, so maybe that does actually back Manga up. (I know, "Just do Collector's Editions then". It sounds like Manga aren't exactly as keen on pushing out the less affluent members of the community as certain other companies and certain other fans. Maybe that's their problem.*)

It sounds like Manga's problems are that Anime Limited has all the titles people would want CEs for, also AL's prices are quite expensive, they're perhaps reducing people's capacity to pay lots of money for Manga's releases of less popular titles (regardless of whether they are CEs or not). And Manga is probably more reliant on traditional sales outlets like HMV, which probably aren't the best place to try and sell a CE.

Funimation have long talked about how streaming revenues have been decent so it's going to vary between companies and a big part of that is how much of their strategy embraces and exploits the benefits of streaming. Having said that, I completely understand Goto's view that AoA want to keep the value in their licenses. The way they've gone about it is extremely disappointing (when the fandom has long enjoyed good access to major mainstream titles like FMA, withdrawing it and locking it down is an utterly unreasonable way to treat future fans) but the devaluation of anime as pioneered by trashy releases like the Manga UK Ouran DVD (awful, awful release) - which was thrown out, left to die then held up as an example of why women don't buy anime - is also destroying the industry from the other direction. AoA still have the option of doing a budget release later if they realise they're wrong. Manga don't have any option of fixing that kind of mistake, and it's up to other companies to pick up the pieces when they destroy a beloved series' marketability in this region.

Sales of standard editions are naturally declining. This was always going to happen whether or not things legally streamed; there's a massive cultural shift going on at the moment and younger people don't understand our generations' attachment to physical media at all. I have a little brother ~8 years old and he has never in his life owned, rented or borrowed a DVD or BD. He doesn't understand why anyone would because you can go to YouTube/Netflix/whatever and instantly get all of the entertainment a person would ever reasonably need without waiting for shipping or having to store anything. CEs are the only hope physical media has, in the long term, and while I think it's a shame future generations will miss out on saving up and going to HMV for a cheapo box set of a full season of anime, they simply aren't going want to. I also think it's a shame that the next generation of fans is growing up without even knowing who Manga are because they are literally refusing to cater to them in any way and build up their brand, so young fans are going to be more familiar with the pirate sites and Crunchyroll than our UK distributors. The older fans who grew up with physical media won't be around forever to support disc releases.

The less affluent members of society should be embracing the huge advantages streaming brings, because when I was out of work £5/month would have bought me a handful of anime releases a year, on a crummy format. Now, it can buy you access to more anime than you can ever hope to watch. I'm dead broke at the moment (my bank balance is currently sitting pretty at £4 due to a rough few months) so I'm not speaking down to the less well-off as Marie Antoinette here :D

What you say about the core differences in Manga's catalogue and sales outlets versus AL's is on the money so I'm not disputing that. It's definitely an important part of the puzzle; a release like Digimon is going to need pitching in a very different way to something like The Tatami Galaxy and the distributors really need to do their homework and understand that stuff. We've heard directly from the companies before that releasing a series in the wrong way can destroy what little sales potential it might otherwise have had. I'm not sure I agree about AL cutting in to Manga's sales significantly as it goes against anything Jerome has ever argued before. If you're on a budget and going for quantity over quality it would be the other way around. If it's not working out that way, then that speaks volumes about what people really want to be buying irrespective of their income, and I think the onus is on Manga to understand and respect that rather than continually deriding the CE crowd and insisting their way is always going to be the best solution.

R
 
It's all well and good saying those of us that are less affluent should just take advantage of the quantity of anime available through streaming for the price of a subscription fee, but some of us would like to rewatch the shows we enjoy in the future, and streaming services can never guarantee titles will remain available. Crunchyroll pulled a title at effectively zero notice for UK fans recently - the announcement and delisting were both during the same night for us. Streaming is not a free pass to ignore the needs of people that can't afford a CE for every single title.
 
This touches on something I've been considering a lot recently as my anime-consuming tastes have changed - and something that naturally ties into the inclination for anime fans to be 'collectors'.

When I first got into anime, I fell for it hard - I'd just started a new job and instantly had a load of disposable income. I bought pretty much every new release and collected stuff like crazy, just as I'd done in the past with my music collection. And then one day, as I reached a point where a) I had less money available to me than before and b) I'd watched pretty much everything in the anime 'canon' of popular/top rated shows, I was just met with an overwhelming feeling of 'Ok, why?...'

Suddenly, the compulsion that I 'had' to have stuff had just gone. I looked at my shelves and realised I probably only watched about 5% more than once - and that for the most part, what time I had available to me was spent on keeping up with new shows. I have barely any space left to keep stuff now, and If I'm honest, I'm almost at the point where getting something digitally is preferable to a hard copy, even if the price is more, just because of the convenience.

I've been there, I've been the collector. But I don't know - since I stopped caring so much about 'having' stuff, I feel more liberated - and my wallet more than anything is probably heaving a sigh of relief too.
 
Discs aren't a guarantee that shows will be viewable in future either. DVD rot ruined a whole generation of Bandai titles for a lot of people, and releases can get pulled partway through (and often do, on both sides of the pond) leaving people with an investment they can never fully enjoy. Or a title can get a release but with some crippling problem like missing subs or an incorrect aspect ratio, then that's your lot - that series is generally ruined in your market forever unless some other company picks it up and takes a risk rereleasing it because the cost of issuing fixed discs is prohibitive. Or what if you're robbed or lose a physical disc to an accident or theft after it's gone out of print, since UK discs generally only ever get one print run? I don't disagree that having cheap standard editions is a fantastic thing - but I do question how viable it is for everything in a rapidly dwindling market of incredibly picky people with lots of alternative options.

R
 
Discs aren't a guarantee that shows will be viewable in future either. DVD rot ruined a whole generation of Bandai titles for a lot of people, and releases can get pulled partway through (and often do, on both sides of the pond) leaving people with an investment they can never fully enjoy. Or a title can get a release but with some crippling problem like missing subs or an incorrect aspect ratio, then that's your lot - that series is generally ruined in your market forever unless some other company picks it up and takes a risk rereleasing it because the cost of issuing fixed discs is prohibitive. Or what if you're robbed or lose a physical disc to an accident or theft after it's gone out of print, since UK discs generally only ever get one print run? I don't disagree that having cheap standard editions is a fantastic thing - but I do question how viable it is for everything in a rapidly dwindling market of incredibly picky people with lots of alternative options.

R

I know that I, for one, wouldn't feel at all guilty downloading an anime to rewatch it if I had a damaged release that was no longer of use, as it would be something I actually owned rather than paid for temporary access to via streaming subscriptions. Even for missing subtitles, and incorrect aspect ratios, those can be fixed without resorting to piracy, while once a stream is gone, it's gone.
 
Wouldn’t normally check in on this stuff but eh you only live once!

My problem is that people dismiss a lot of what he says out of hand because they do not like him, or they might perhaps deliberately obscure the full picture to make Jerome look bad. For example, when Jerome made the comment that CEs were only selling 300 units. He wasn't proven wrong as such, he was proven not to be looking at the full picture (his figure didn't include more specialist retailers like AOL or UP1 or sales at conventions), yet people are acting like he deliberately told an outright lie to make AL look bad. Given Manga tends to rely more heavily on traditional outlets and casual consumers, that information is probably more relevant to Manga than the full sales figures.

It could also have been a generalisation to make a point - it’s hardly like anyone on a quick Twitter rant is going to carefully go through the data and check it all out. I certainly don’t see that one as any kind of attempt to make AL look bad.

Even when Andrew agrees with him, his comments still get ignored. Jerome says streaming hurts standard editions -- people explode into shouts of "he's a liar!, he's a liar!" -- Andrew agrees with him, and people tone down their criticism, but they still refuse to believe it. Whereas if Andrew had said it first, it would probably be taken as gospel truth and used to push for more CEs.
This ties into generalisations again really. The easier it is to find significant exceptions, the more people will be disbelieving of a statement - for example for every title like Ben-To (off top of head, may not be a good example) there’s a healthy selection like Death Note that it won’t hurt on standard. The easier it is to find a Death Note, Attack on Titan, Fullmetal Alchemist or the ilk that is streamed AND does well on home video - the harder it can be for folks to generally swallow.
I would also note that Jerome genuinely believes he and Manga are working to increase access to anime, they just aren't doing it in the way you want. I'd argue the fact Death Note is available for pre-order on blu-ray at £25, their commitment to low prices even when AL seems hellbent on increasing them, and their commitment to standard editions, even when expensive full price collector's editions are available, are proof of that.
Not sure I follow this line of argument - the Death Note BDs sell for £59.99 SRP, which is still good value but nowhere near £25 and most retailers are selling for £39.99 - £49.99 range (which is still great value for money and you should definitely buy it, I’ve got it on pre-order anyway!)

Also we’re not “hellbent” on increasing the price - but if you want nice things in a set beyond the discs, there’s a cost attached to it all. Namely as I’ve broken down before:

- Access fees often for content
- Translation cost
- Graphic design costs (takes more time, more approvals)
- Production costs (booklets DO grow on trees, but also cost a chunk of leaves to print ;))

This has to be included in the cost as we’re sadly not a charity, we need cash to keep the lights on and staff paid / able to cover their mortgages/rent and bills. You can replace that with art cards or as you will, there’s always some added cost attached. Result is either a lower end Collector’s with the discs + case in a better price point but nothing new, or a higher end collector’s that has stuff that is new and/or cool and it costs more. I will literally never make everyone happy no matter what I choose, neither will anyone else alas!

I'm sure Manga would argue that holding back Sakomoto from streaming was necessary to ensure a home video release took place. You can think they're right to make that assumption or you can not think that, but $150 an episode is such a low figure, that no sane businessperson would risk it. (Andrew Partridge might, but he probably doesn't fit the "sane businessperson" criteria.
cid:9eb57d1b0ef40a6439106bee512f25d2
He also doesn't have a parent company to answer to.)

Not sure what you’re getting at here on that frontier ;). That said, Anime Ltd are seasoned in the world of digital so I’m afraid I’m all boring and definitely do fit into the “sane businessperson” category for digital. We do a lot especially on the SVOD and shortly the EST frontier (iTunes, PSN, Xbox etc etc) because simply put content has to still be accessible for folks especially when our prevalent physical release format is Collector’s.

(Side note too but a key thing being missed out is even if it were $150 / ep - that’s not a flat fee as you get royalties too. So if the show was even semi-popular AND for some reason that was the MG you got, you’d make way more on CR than that pretty quickly.)

AP
 
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