deactivated
Hunter
[quote="ayase""When they came for the lolicons,
I remained silent;
I was not a lolicon."[/quote]
Niiice.
I remained silent;
I was not a lolicon."[/quote]
Niiice.
Coroners and Justice Bill.....Threat to anime??
- Thread starter a.m200805
- Start date
Project-2501
Straw Hat Pirate
fabricatedlunatic said:
Actually no, its illegal to import it. And customs are not regulated by the OPA, they have their own rules and regulations, so if they think its illegal even when its legal for highstreet sale its going to get binned.
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPort ... 4#P14_1736
So since 1979 (or even 1876) its been illegal to import cartoons/drawings depicting children involved in sexual activity. Oh well.
fabricatedlunatic said:
Are they actually criminalising something you enjoy with the CJB?
If this bill truly restricts your 'personal freedoms' then go to the european court of human rights. Its what they are there for.
Ayase, lets all remember what happened to the members of the gunpowder plot.. they all DIED
crunchyroll
Completely Average High School Student
Project-2501 said:
You're wrong on this one - the IWF was set up by the IPSA and are an independent body, but they work in partnership with the Police. They were very clear when the whole wikipedia thing was happening that they made their decision with Police advice. If you go on any Police website you will see links to the IWF - the Police will tell you to report indecent images to them, rather than taking the reports themselves. I imagine the lack of Police action over the image is much more to do with the public response to the whole thing than anything else - there was no great outcry as you'd normally expect in this country except in regards to the block, and as you've pointed out, contextually the image had been around for years.
Anyway - this is going off point a bit - ultimately you have a very vague law which could be used once passed to censor a very wide range of content, much more than is currently being suggested. Whether there is no intention to do this right now is irrelevant, once you've created the weapon there is little going back. I'm surprised more people aren't worried by this, to be honest - not about what they might or might not have that could be illegal, but simply for the fact that we are going to have a law which sends people to jail for drawing things. I have no desire to see, own or pay for lolicon or hentai, but I don't believe in ruining lives over a few pencil marks - particularly where there has never been any evidence to show this kind of stuff leads people to abuse children
ayase
State Alchemist
But the fact that members of our government can, on a whim it seems, just make up some new law because they personally think it's a good idea speaks volumes about our so-called "Democracy". Dictatorship by committee more like. Let's not forget the House of Lords is still unelected (for all the difference it makes - it would still be filled with the same fatcats and career politicians either way) and the only people who get near the Commons are those sanctioned by the major parties, which are now all so similar it barely makes a difference who you vote for as the results are always the same.Project-2501 said:
More's the pity. I'm convinced that to rip it up and start again is the only way to solve our problems with bad governance. We need to press the reset button on the entire structure of government and the civil service (ridding ourselves of as much of both as we can in the process). All that we need to do to decide if something should be regulated by law is ask one question - is a practice harming anyone other than the individual carrying it out? If not, knock yourself out (literally, if you like).Project-2501 said:Ayase, lets all remember what happened to the members of the gunpowder plot.. they all DIED
ilmaestro
State Alchemist
There is, to my mind, no convincing concept of a drawing being "of a child". It's completely fictional, drawings don't "exist" as the objects they depict, they exist as drawings. The point of laws against child pornography is supposed to be to protect children. This, however, succeeds in doing what? Protecting the cartoons themselves? ^^; What next, jail time for thinking an iffy thought about Natsuki from Mai-HiME?Project-2501 said:
fabio de lunatico
Claymore
Heh, I pre-empted this reply in my previous post and you actually ignored it. That's impressive.Project-2501 said:
Exactly. It is, frankly, worrying that people take the attitude of "it doesn't affect me, so who cares".
Project-2501
Straw Hat Pirate
crunchyroll said:
The IPSA (another self founded independent self interest group) still have nowt to do with the police or government, and you say yourself the IWF only work in partnership with the police. This still does not make their opinion any closer to being law.
If EVERY arrest that was made because one policeman thought the person was guilty or becuase a member of the public said they were guilty ended up in a secure conviction then we'd never need the courts. The Guildford four and the Birmingham six would still be safely locked away if the police were always right
To deem something illegal needs more than the opinion of the police. And certainly needs more than the opinion of an independent group such as the IWF or IPSA. We're not living in the USA now are we!
fabricatedlunatic, I didn't ignore it as you just said loli, you might be into collecting something else for all I know. But again you and crunchy miss the point that the CJB is not censorship. The censorship laws already exist and will remain unaffected.
I stand by my original statement of 'storm in a teacup'. The US has had far more draconian laws in place for 6 odd years now and they've caught 1 person, and that seems to have been more by luck.
Exhibitions and similar gatherings are public. They are governed by obscenity and indecency laws. The enactment of the bill will widen the scope of obscenity and outlaw some events. Additionally, organisers will be required to take extraordinary precaution not to admit materials now covered by the pertinent law putting undue strain on them.
And no, Parliament cannot make retrospective law, however, there is no retrospective punishment in convicting someone of possession of illegal materials whensoever purchased. The act can be interpreted as an indirect order to destroy such publications.
Yes, the act will probably have little effect on the ultimate consumer, but that is not to say that people ought to stand and watch the unsolicited meddling of Parliament and pressure groups with arms crossed. Apathy in matters of freedom is injurious.
And no, Parliament cannot make retrospective law, however, there is no retrospective punishment in convicting someone of possession of illegal materials whensoever purchased. The act can be interpreted as an indirect order to destroy such publications.
Yes, the act will probably have little effect on the ultimate consumer, but that is not to say that people ought to stand and watch the unsolicited meddling of Parliament and pressure groups with arms crossed. Apathy in matters of freedom is injurious.
crunchyroll
Completely Average High School Student
Derfel said:
Absolutely. Just because something was legally purchased in the past does not guarantee its legality in the future. And with a law so vague as this, it leaves it up to the individual to decide whether you want to risk that. The Police opinion is that if you think anything you own *might* fall under the new law, then you either destroy it before the law arrives, or you risk having to one day stand in front of a courtroom and defend your possession of it. I asked at the Police Legal Database online, this was what they told me.
As I've said all along, I don't think the majority of people here who don't collect extreme sex-related stuff like hentai or lolicon have anything to worry about, but I stand by my original response that this is a very vague law that could be made to fit far more innocuous and mainstream material and is therefore bad legislation. Why do you think Neil Gaiman and the CBA have put so much effort into campaining? Their assessment was that Lost Girls, as an example, could easily be prosecuted under the law - even Watchmen.
Derfel is right - apathy is something we should all guard against and sadly people in the UK time and time again keep quiet about stuff and complain after the event. Seriously, look up the parliamentary debates on this stuff on hansard, and the comments made by people like George Howarth MP. It's scary, 1984 style craziness: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/18/thought_crime/
If you truly believe in freedom of speech then you have to be prepared to argue not just for your own freedoms, but also for the thoughts and ideas of others that you may find distasteful, unpleasant and disagreeable
All this "1984" bollox is just that. A person could have the most gross, despicable drawings of child porn that they have acquired, or drawn themselves. Clause 49 is written in to cover the wicket should that person do something stupid like showing his collection to anyone, child, or adult, where said child, or adult reports that person to the authorities. So if someone has a stash of gross and despicable CP, they had better either get rid of it, or keep it well hidden, showing it to no one, because if Clause 49 goes through unamended, they will have the authority to do you for it being in your possession. But having said that, publishing is key to that happening.
According to the Hansard of 02/June, the bill will be "considered" in "schedules" Chause 41 - 51 being in "Schedule-10". When this will happen is not clear, however the next date of debate is on 09/June.
According to the Hansard of 02/June, the bill will be "considered" in "schedules" Chause 41 - 51 being in "Schedule-10". When this will happen is not clear, however the next date of debate is on 09/June.
Mohawk52 said:
Yes, let us all forget the ends the bill, if enacted, will seek to achieve, to criminalise imagination. Yeah, very few will be affected in the narrow sense, but in a much broader sense, everyone will have lost another right to idiocy, neither the first one nor the last, and it will set precedent to the curtailment of rights.
Imagine the government inventing a completely new genre of music, entirely unlike anything else and banning it altogether. No one could possibly suffered any loss in most senses, but in the legal one, everyone lost rights related to that form of music. A legal loss, a loss of a right is a loss all the same. If you don't like freedom, your choice, what can I say?
chaos
The Boss
http://us.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/04/07/sext ... index.htmlunellmay said:
In this case there is a "victim".
But in the coroners bill, the "victim" is an imagined "being".
ayase
State Alchemist
Exactly. That's what I meant earlier when paraphrasing "First they came…". Even if you don't like lolicon, I don't see how anyone can sit idly by while they government passes what is, in effect, thoughtcrime legislation.Derfel said:
I'm seriously thinking of spoiling my ballot now. I've always voted before but after watching the up themselves "How dare the media / members of the public question what I / the government do?" superior attitude of most politicians over the last couple of months, coupled with the now appalling behaviour of the police towards people engaged in perfectly legal protests, I want nothing less than the total annihilation of our parliamentary and legal systems. I care not for all these bloody clauses and legalese and debate as to what will be criminal and what won't. Our government is now trying to suppress thought. End of story. If we allow them one victory in this matter it will open the floodgates for more, and since they've already removed our right to defend ourselves and our right to privacy, they'll be able to do whatever they want.
Call it paranoia if you like, but you only need to look at the amount of rights taken away from British Citizens in the last decade or so to see which direction things are headed. Even if this bill had never existed, we'd still be on the same slow, steady march towards Airstrip One. We already have our Perpetual War and our Emmanuel Goldstein who's existance is the basis for much of this right curtailment. I apologise for the off topic rambling but I get more pissed off at the way we are governed by the day. Where's our dangerous dictator-in-waiting who's supposed to arise at times like these when people lose their faith in democracy? Even if they end up being worse in the long run, it might be worth it for the satisfaction it would bring me to see them destroy everything I currently hate about this country.
/rant
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