Coroners and Justice Bill.....Threat to anime??

A

a.m200805

Completely Average High School Student
Hi, As I believe that you might have read this already. But, I mean, after I read it carefully, it is really a matter that has to be concern. As you can see, this bill is to tackle lolicon. For me, lolicon should be banned. But now, I can see that it will not just banning lolicon, this bill will or might affect other anime.

For example, Elfen Lied, I haven't watch the series and despite the fact that it has been classified by the BBFC; but after I've seen the DVD cover from hmv.co.uk, I realised that this will "or most likly will" cross the line.

Also, now days, most of the new release anime are packed with fan service, which in some series that are heavely packed with (e.g. Love Hina) and some of the series are minor with (e.g. Shakugan no Shana). And as you can see, this bill will or might affect them.

Also, before I forget, this will also affect games (I think, but most likely)

So, what do you think?

More readings:
http://forums.animeuknews.net/viewtopic ... l&&start=0

http://derfels-reviews.com/2009/04/coro ... /#more-283

http://services.parliament.uk/bills/200 ... stice.html

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Protec ... ?showall=1
 
Ryo Chan said:
Bill isn't going to go through, nuff said, or if it does, it'll have to be edited to not effect manga/GN/Comics/TV
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Are you sure? But at the moment, things are not looking good. The bill is at the Lords at the moment, and I can see that nothing has been changed so far.. Since last year while they post the consultation.
 
If the BBFC pass it, it's not going to be a problem.

There may be issues with manga, but that will lead to another Lady Chatterly trial, in which case this bill will be overturned. If it's even passed in the first place. It's not just manga, it's all forms of comic book art, indeed any art at all.

Next time someone goes into an art gallery, looks at a renaissance era painting and gets offended at the nudity of a cherub, they'll quickly realise how daft this provision is.
 
Crap. Better start keeping my anime under the floorboards.. :eek:

Honestly, I don't think it's likely effect the anime/manga market too much, regardless of what it says.

The majority of people are smart enough to differentiate between the stuff that's genuinely offensive and material with artistic qualities or narrative. There are still going to be a few with the Daily Mail 'ban this sick filth' mentality, but that's never changed.
 
Just a few things I would like to note.

Yes, the bill is intact, the second reading in the House of Lords will be on the 27th of April. So we will find out a bit more a day after approximately.

If passed, it will be applied. The courts do not possess to authority to invalidate Acts of the Westminster Parliament. And this bill currently expresses pretty clearly what its aim is. It is not even possible for a judge to 'purposefully misunderstand' it.

What may happen is that, if it is passed, it will lead to bunch of people getting convicted, public outrage, etc.

If this does not solve the issue, and they don't amend the legislation, a few cases decided in the European Court of Human Rights might even help. Provided the court finds in favour of the applicants.

I mean, if they clearly receive signals that things are not ok, even those useless fools may actually make the logical steps.

Oh yes, the Parliament website has a feed function for each bill before Parliament, so you can just subscribe. Its a pretty neat function.
 
Wildcard said:
Honestly, I don't think it's likely effect the anime/manga market too much, regardless of what it says.
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There exist manga published in this country depicting schoolgirls and schoolboys engaging in sexual acts; the word 'schoolgirl' and 'schoolboy' coming directly from the official plot synopses thereof.
This could be sufficient for these publications to be in violation of the new bill, as the characters could well be interpreted as being under the age of 18 -the legal definition of child- in virtue of their description, clothing and surroundings. (I have Section 55, subsection 6(b) of the new bill in mind. Derfel's article should make this clear.)
A discontinuity between what is legally published in this country and what is a criminal offence to possess could result.
I've signed the petition against this.
 
Wildcard said:
The majority of people are smart enough to differentiate between the stuff that's genuinely offensive and material with artistic qualities or narrative.
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Don't be so sure :lol:

I also signed the petition against this.
 
I think the absurdity of the law requires a bit of attention as well.
One can become a criminal just by drawing something. Come on, just by drawing a bloody comic. The author need not publish it, show it to anyone, speak of its existence, she can draw it while blindfolded, it might be that no one has ever seen it. Regardless of all these facts, the author will become a criminal. Yes, it isn't a civil wrong. It is a criminal wrong.
 
Okay, I've given the bill another look, and yeah, I didn't realise it was quite so vague.

Being carted off to jail or placed on a sex offenders register over a drawing someone deemed 'underage' is absurd. The whole thing seems like one big grey area. I don't in any way condone things like lolicon, but a lot of boderline material does stand to suffer - thinking about it Manga like Gantz and Berserk had moments that could cross the line.

Anyhow, the alarm bells are ringing now, this could mean trouble. I think I'll be joining the petition too.
 
I signed the petition.

I don't like the idea that some image I skim over in a manga, anime or comic could get jumped on by someone else and end up with me in court. I have 100's of anime and manga and 1000's of comics there has to be something in all that material others will take offence to it is human nature, we just don't need a law to back up their bigotry.
 
I would prefer it if the government that deals with explicit child imagery would use all of their time and effort against real child abuse and pornography, as opposed to taking drawings too seriously. I do agree that they should try and ban it as it can "present" or even promote children in an explicit manner, although I could not care less as they are just pencil to paper and anyone can make anything from art.

Elfen Lied did have some slight references, although it was in fact acceptable for UK release, and was also even shown on UK television before despite being banned in several other nations. Believe me, I am more opposed to child abuse and such more than most others, but I have no dramatic problem with 'drawings' sitting with their legs open, which is deemed as non-acceptable just because they have a flat chest.

There is no evidence, such as Birth Certificates, to prove that a fictional character is underage, despite their looks. Konata Izumi, for example, looks about 13 or younger, yet is actually 17/18 according to her profile. Of course in reality there are actually Japanese girls in their late teens that look about 14 so this should not be deemed a problem.

This is why Lolicon was never banned, you see. There is never enough proof, statistics, and so on, that the people trying to ban it can use. There is no abuse involved because the characters involved do not exist, and ultimately these girls are only shapes and sketches and, more importantly, fictitious.

I myself am not a fan of loli but I love Lucky Star and adore Akira from it: the youngest character. I also really like Elfen Lied. It does have nudity and such, but it does not bother me. No abuse is made, drawings are indeed presented nude but they are only traces left by pen and pencil in the end. But I do somewhat agree, all forms of underage sexually orientated sources should not exist to begin with.
 
Dracos said:
I don't like the idea that some image I skim over in a manga, anime or comic could get jumped on by someone else and end up with me in court. I have 100's of anime and manga and 1000's of comics there has to be something in all that material others will take offence to it is human nature, we just don't need a law to back up their bigotry.
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HERE HERE!!

this is the part that i found
Child protection laws are crucial, and important, but they must have, as a defining characteristic, that they protect children. If a child protection law does not protect children, it encroaches upon the liberty of people for not benefit.
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Yet it seems perfectly ok that all these other pedo's seem to have quite content lives and are treated better then the rest of us. Moral justice is a joke

anyhow in an unrelated topic i heard that in Turkey that the age of consent is 12, so long as he/she's married
 
Amray said:
I would prefer it if the government that deals with explicit child imagery would use all of their time and effort against real child abuse and pornography, as opposed to taking drawings too seriously. I do agree that they should try and ban it as it can "present" or even promote children in an explicit manner, although I could not care less as they are just pencil to paper and anyone can make anything from art.

I myself am not a fan of loli but I love Lucky Star and adore Akira from it: the youngest character. I also really like Elfen Lied. It does have nudity and such, but it does not bother me. No abuse is made, drawings are indeed presented nude but they are only traces left by pen and pencil in the end. But I do somewhat agree, all forms of underage sexually orientated sources should not exist to begin with.
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While I see 'agree' and 'should not exist', I fail to see the arguments backing them up. I do not wish to offend you in any way, but I, for a certainty, think that the moral distaste you feel is poor justification for prohibiting something that is not proven to have any ill effects.

Morals were a crucial part of the law, and still are part of it to some extent, but there is an increasing tendency of making law with its utility in mind, in almost all civilised countries.

Again, I am not a consumer of loli, but the fact that I would not be greatly affected by this new law does not mean that I will disregard it. Regardless of whether you have had any use for it, once bereaved of a liberty, that liberty is lost for you.

There are many things 'immoral' (in quotation marks because morality is a disease I would like to stay the hell away from) which the law permits. Sexual infidelity, alcoholism, exploitation of the poor and needy through legal means, accepted forms of pornography, sex telephone. Yet these examples are not prohibited by law.

I think the negative effect of alcoholism and sexual infidelity (again, I'm not viewing it from a moral point of view, I don't condem any of these things personally) far overshadows that of being a loli consumer.

The difference between the above examples and loli is that the forms of behaviour mentioned in the examples are widely practiced. No one cares anymore. There are pressure groups who find that we should get rid of all this moral corruption, but it is not a possibility. Besides, people will not want to ban the forms of behaviour they enjoy to indulge in. But loli is a different matter. The pressure groups and the concerned mothers -who should f*cking let loose of their 17 yo old sons and daughters, because they know very f*cking well that the tale of the birds and bees is just a bunch of sh*t- keep pestering the government to take action.

Honestly, if I was the boss around, I'd kick anyone out of Parliament who dares present an argument with the words 'God', 'morality' or 'ethics' in it. That is my subjective opinion though. I think, our liberties extend until the point where the liberties of others begin. Why ban something if it is not proven that it can cause any harm?
 
All I was implying was that there are both bad and reasonable offers that Lolicon present. As you can clearly see from my previous post: I am neither "for" or "against" this plan and think 'not much' of it. Whether it is banned or not does not change my life whatsoever. All what I was doing was showing reasons for both its banning and its "no one should care" reflection.

It can be justified as innappropriate (which is already argumented by officials) due to the fact that it promotes children in an explicit manner, which is obviously what it sets out to do. Some artists draw Loli's so that people who are attracted to much younger females, or who have some form of fetish from the thought of having sexual relations with underage girls, can relief themselves over them, all joking aside. If they are from Anime or Manga series' then that should be of no concern for they are only characters. Not every character should be an adult as it defeats the point of anime's realistic reflection. Some are usually shown in sexual manners in anime and manga with the odd up-skirt image, et cetera (Kiddy Grade) but this is nothing bad, really. Like I said: they are only drawings.

On the other side it could be nothing to fear as the characters are fictional. They have no human rights, feelings, and so on. All of which they possess are appearances. No age, nothing except what is written in their character biographies. I could sit here now and draw a 100 year old girl and make her look eight years old. (She fell in a time device..or something). Would it be acceptable if I drew her pulling down her undergarments? This is the argument and always has been, which is even stated on the website of this all regarding the banning in the UK.

But there is nothing stopping some desperate man looking at Loli only to proceed further to committing illegal acts by downloading real child pornography; likely from foreign sites as in some places young models are totally legal. This stuff can be so easy to come cross on the internet due to this that it is scary. It makes me want to vomit, personally. Drawings on the other hand do not. Loli characters in anime do not bother me at all, nor should they. I personally think they are cute with their big eyes and blushed cheeks. I would just prefer it of our country would concern themselves over more important matters instead of dealing with drawings. But this is just my own opinion.

I can easily justify reasons for its passing and its banning. Just PM me and I'll send them to you if you do not believe me. Ultimately I do not care and it does not change my life whether it passes or is banned. I speak of Doujinshi and other art of course and not anime itself.
 
1, I fail to see the transition between loli and downloading actual child pornography. Logically, if a paedo decides to download a piece of loli, that is clear indication that he downloaded loli. I know this is obvious, but I need to point it out: he is downloading loli, not actual child pornography.

2, True, there is nothing stopping a man looking at loli from downloading actual child pornography, but there is nothing stopping a man not looking at loli from downloading child pornography.

3, Since this is the appropriate topic for it, I think you should disclose any information pertaining it, especially to back up your arguments. And I would greatly appreciate any evidence that would suggest that loli increases child abuse rates. And I am talking about academic sources, research, not a bunch of Guardian or BBC articles. I mean a reliable body of academics who conducted independent research.

4, You cannot eradicate paedophiles (well, you could, but I don't think that would count as a legitimate means of solving the problem, and quite frankly, killing off people because of high and mighty morals is hypocrisy, I'm not suggesting you ever said or implied this, just mentioned it by the way). So, you need to keep them at bay. How do you keep them at bay? Surely, you do realise that if you leave no release for paedos, not only will we have a bunch of paedophiles on our hands, no, we will have a horny bunch. I have no wishes of procreating, since I can't stand kids (they cost money, won't shut the hell up, and it takes them years before they f*ck off for good), but let me ask you, would you want to sire children in a world with horny paedophiles?

Utility should prevail over morals. Ban morals please.
 
Oh lord... this one AGAIN.

Just Passing Through said:
If the BBFC pass it, it's not going to be a problem.
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Bingo.

The act requires GRAPHIC sex, not hints of sex, or implications that sex is going on, or movement under the sheets, but proper graphic acts of sex.

If you think Elfen Lied contains graphic sex then you probably need to see a shrink. Heck, Elfen Lied was shown on UK TV and the only cut made was due to the fact they used the US TV masters.

Wildcard said:
Honestly, I don't think it's likely effect the anime/manga market too much, regardless of what it says.
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Double bingo. The anime you BUY in the UK has to be passed by the BBFC. If it was classed as porn it would have been slapped with an 18R rating. Even in the states they can't sell just anything, even though its self regulated there are still standards. Same goes for manga, if its actually sold in the UK its already govered by the OPA.

Anything you download or import has always been at your own risk and will continue to be at your own risk. The only difference is now its an offence to own, rather than just an offence to distribute.

But unless they are specifically watching you because they suspect you're a peado (and lets face it, its more likely that you'll get done for downloading first) its very unlikely anything will happen.

Storm in a teacup, blown out of all proportion as always. Its not the case that overnight half the BBFC rated DVDs or UK bought manga you own will become illegal.

Some of the stuff you've downloaded might well become illegal, but you probably broke the law downloading it in the first place so why are you worried? ;)
 
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