Coroners and Justice Bill.....Threat to anime??
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crunchyroll
Completely Average High School Student
Sorry to bring up an old thread but I thought it was worth pointing out that the second reading happened of this bill at the Lords and as dar as I know there were no objections to the sections of the bill that might/might not affect manga and anime. In fact it was the opposite - those sections were loudly supported.
Neil Gaiman runs the Comic Book Alliance - they've been campaigning on this for a while now, and one of their suggestions was that people write to the MPs behind the bill and get responses - I tried this, and wrote to three - I only got one response and it was a formulated one, but Maria Eagle's office did emphasise that anything currently legal would not be affected by any change of law - basically saying that if you can buy it now in a shop, it should be fine.
I would guess that if your manga/anime collection does not involve large amounts of lolicon then you don't really have anything to worry about - I don't think it's going to affect anyone here directly. However the more important and significant aspect of this bill is that we as a nation are about to criminalise drawings in the 21st Century - all those cliches about the thin edge of a very thick wedge might be truer than you think. It's not a great leap from one form of censorship to another. I have no interest in lolicon, I've never sought it out or gone near it because it holds nothing of interest for me, but I understand it to be drawings and nothing else - the idea that someone could face the same penalties for owning that kind of stuff as another person who has a whole load of real photographic images of child abuse in their posession seems to me to be extremely disproportionate.
One last thing - few people seem to have questioned this aspect of the bill - how can you justify sending someone to prison for drawing a picture of a 16 or 17 year old having sex when it is entirely legal to actually go out and do it? In the case of real photos and videos - fine, there's a consent issue - but a fictional drawing? Is there any other act that is legal to do but illegal to draw?
Sorry about that - rant over
Neil Gaiman runs the Comic Book Alliance - they've been campaigning on this for a while now, and one of their suggestions was that people write to the MPs behind the bill and get responses - I tried this, and wrote to three - I only got one response and it was a formulated one, but Maria Eagle's office did emphasise that anything currently legal would not be affected by any change of law - basically saying that if you can buy it now in a shop, it should be fine.
I would guess that if your manga/anime collection does not involve large amounts of lolicon then you don't really have anything to worry about - I don't think it's going to affect anyone here directly. However the more important and significant aspect of this bill is that we as a nation are about to criminalise drawings in the 21st Century - all those cliches about the thin edge of a very thick wedge might be truer than you think. It's not a great leap from one form of censorship to another. I have no interest in lolicon, I've never sought it out or gone near it because it holds nothing of interest for me, but I understand it to be drawings and nothing else - the idea that someone could face the same penalties for owning that kind of stuff as another person who has a whole load of real photographic images of child abuse in their posession seems to me to be extremely disproportionate.
One last thing - few people seem to have questioned this aspect of the bill - how can you justify sending someone to prison for drawing a picture of a 16 or 17 year old having sex when it is entirely legal to actually go out and do it? In the case of real photos and videos - fine, there's a consent issue - but a fictional drawing? Is there any other act that is legal to do but illegal to draw?
Sorry about that - rant over
and i say again
Downloading is illegal
Owning swords is illegal
watching sky without a subscription by hacking a satelite is illegal
and how many people ever get caught without actually doing something stupid like bringing it into the public eye?
3% most. doesn't matter if they made all Cartoons on the planet illegal, they'd still end up doing very little about it
Downloading is illegal
Owning swords is illegal
watching sky without a subscription by hacking a satelite is illegal
and how many people ever get caught without actually doing something stupid like bringing it into the public eye?
3% most. doesn't matter if they made all Cartoons on the planet illegal, they'd still end up doing very little about it
Ryo Chan said:
Yes, but its still imposition of arbitrary morality upon people. Just because some Labour MP thinks something is a horrible sin doesn't mean we have to agree with him or her, right? As Crunchyroll pointed out, if you release the already pretty loose reins of the MPs, they'll just resort to more and more social engineering.
deactivated
Hunter
*sigh*
I hate our country.
I hate our country.
crunchyroll
Completely Average High School Student
ilmaestro said:
For sure - someone earlier in the thread did say that everything you import is done so at your own risk, and I guess after this bill becomes law that is something which everyone will have to consider even more carefully. I guess anyone who thinks they have anything that could get them into trouble needs to think about getting rid of it, or cancelling memberships to sites etc if they're downloading. You can't get prosecuted for something retrospectively...
That said, it's depressing thinking you could own something that common sense tells you can't possibly be illegal but under the vague wording of a new law could be soon. I was reading the first volume of Battle Royale the other day - in the first few pages there is a picture of a girl in a sexual situation - and the students in that book are all supposed to be 15-16. Sure in context, you couldn't possibly call it pornography, and it's being sold in Waterstones ffs, but taken in isolation and going by the actual letter of the law...
Btw, I'm pretty sure Battle Royale will not come under the new law, but then once a law leaves parliament it's up to the Police and the courts to decide exactly what it means, so I'm not sure I really believe all of Maria Eagle's reassurances
fabio de lunatico
Claymore
That sounds like exactly the sort of material that will be affected. Ostensibly underage drawings engaging in sexually explicit acts. I find it difficult to believe that the people who read Yaoi -- mostly women -- are potential paedos, but the governement clearly disagrees.
crunchyroll
Completely Average High School Student
RetroRainbow said:
Yup
There's a big case in the US about to start - some guy from Iowa I think called Christopher Handley (might have the spelling wrong). He was arrested after the police intercepted a parcel of manga he'd ordered from Japan. From what I understand initially the suggestion was that he'd ordered hentail/lolicon stuff - in which case it's maybe not that surprising - but more recently there are suggestions that the stuff he's being charged for isn't as extreme and may even include some much more mainstream stuff. No-one knows yet, the trial is still to begin, but the Comic Book Defence Fund were planning on defending him (but he ended up pleading guilty, probably hoping to avoid the 20 years he was facing in jail if he didn't and was convicted).
To those of you who think nothing you own could be affected, because you've only bought things legally in shops and not imported etc - anyone remember the Wikipedia row from late last year? That Scorpions album cover that was confirmed as an image of child sexual abuse by the IWF? Don't forget that the CD was available on Amazon right up to the day the IWF blocked Wikipedia and still is in HMV Oxford Street! Point being, just because you can buy it in a shop doesn't mean the Police won't still consider it against the law...
deactivated
Hunter
Somone was arrested just for that?
Feh. I'd like to see them try and take my manga!
Not that I have anything takeable (yet) but still.
Feh. I'd like to see them try and take my manga!
Not that I have anything takeable (yet) but still.
Project-2501
Straw Hat Pirate
crunchyroll said:
How does the IWF blocking a site have anything to do with whats actually legal/illegal for sale? The IWF are not the police and that album had been on sale with that cover since 1976!! Banning a website with a picture of it in 2008 is a bit late really. The police had 32 years to think about it, not even they are that slow. Its a total non-story.
As for making stuff you've legally bought in shops illegal... you cannot retrospecively inforce a law in the UK, or most of the world for that matter. ie if the BBFC/OPA classed it as legal to buy previously, it will remain legal even after this bill comes into force.
"Oh sorry, actually we should never have given Elfen Lied a 15 rating, we've now decided its illegal and anyone who bought a copy will now be arrested"
But buy something from an importer/reseller (such as at the expo) or mail ordered it from overseas, well that has always been and will remain entirely at your own risk. And importing dodgey stuff has always run the risk of customs impounding it, here or in the USA. Chistopher Handley was importing and he got busted. The fact he pleaded guilty means there is a lot more to it than a few 'comic books'.
crunchyroll said:
Why? Battle Royale has been released for sale in the UK by Tokyopop who I'm sure are well versed in the OPA and what they can/can't sell.
crunchyroll
Completely Average High School Student
Project-2501 said:
Well, actually the IWF blocking the site does potentially have alot to do with the legality of what is or isn't for sale. The IWF made a decision on that album cover that it was likely to be considered an image of child sexual abuse and even though they backed down on that, they did not withdraw their assertion that their assessment of it was that it was potentially illegal. As you say, the cover was available for years - this was why the IWF backed down. Still, would you go out and buy a copy now that you know that the police might percieve it as an indecent image? Just because the album remains on sale and can be purchased in a shop does not make it 'legal' as such - it would take a test case of course but although highly unlikely it's not inconceivable that this couldn't happen.
I think you're missing the wider point here - of course a law can't be made retrospectively, but this act is about possession and not publication - therefore something legally available to possess today won't necessarily be legal to possess tomorrow if it falls foul of a new law. The OPA was traditionally very difficult to prosecute under. Anything this law will catch should easily have been covered by that law, so why bring in a new one? Of course the manga mentioned here in this thread is highly unlikely to fall under the new law, but the fact is it is bad, poorly written legislation. As I said before, once law is passed it doesn't matter one bit what MPs intended - it's up to the courts and the Police.
If you read my post you'd have seen me say clearly that the information about Christopher Handley isn't clear - all I said was that the current suggestion is that he may have imported material which was less extreme than first suggested. As to his guilty plea - well, I prefer to wait on judging someone until I know the full facts. All I can do is remain empathic towards someone being prosecuted for possessing drawings, no matter how disgusting those might be personally to me. Either way, I can understand that facing 20 years in jail for pleading not guilty might cause someone to put their hands in the air and give up
Zin5ki
Railgun
Existing sources state that it was only manga:Project-2501 said:
A notable 'extreme' hentai artist has tentatively been identified as the author of at least some of the offending material.
Project-2501
Straw Hat Pirate
crunchyroll said:
The police may perceive it as 'indecent' but they'd then have to go to the CPS and make a case that it IS actually indecent. But if the police really thought it was actually indecent it would have been removed from sale decades ago. And lets remember the IWF is an indepentent self interest group who have nothing to do with the police, CPS, department of justice etc..
And yes, because it remains on sale it remains legal. Very simple. In the same way anime rated by the BBFC and manga for sale in the likes of Waterstones (such as Battle Royale) will continue to be legal for sale and ownership.
The police didn't start arresting people when the beeb decided that 'Relax' was too raunchy to play on the radio.
crunchyroll said:
No missed point at all. If the publication was illegal to sell you really shouldn't have bought it. The fact that there are very simple ways and means in this day and age to bypass such restrictions doesn't make it magically legal to do it. Thats the whole darn point of the bill. You shouldn't have it in the first place and now you might have to pay the piper.
Its always been the case that if customs intercept something that would be illegal to sell in this country then it gets destroyed, and depending on the item you might also get in trouble. And now that you can download stuff directly so there is no chance of customs catching you equally doesn't make it legal.
Zin5ki, my point exactly that its more than a few 'comic books' if an 'extreme hentai' author has been identified as a source.
ayase
State Alchemist
Who cares how bloody "extreme" it was, it's still just drawings. A man is possibly going to prison for drawings. Pen lines made on a piece of paper.
To say that "something's illegal so you shouldn't do it" is very shakey. So it doesn't matter what the law is, you should just obey it? We should be fighting against any laws which protect no-one and restrict our personal freedoms.
To say that "something's illegal so you shouldn't do it" is very shakey. So it doesn't matter what the law is, you should just obey it? We should be fighting against any laws which protect no-one and restrict our personal freedoms.
fabio de lunatico
Claymore
It's not illegal if the seller is from outside the UK.Project-2501 said:
I love how you so casually say "you shouldn't have it in the first place and now you might have to pay the piper". Let's hope the government doesn't decide to criminalize something you enjoy.
And, no, I'm not interested in loli, just against ill-conceived censorship.
ayase said:
I agree, though my opinion is that we shouldn't expect much from the 'mainstream culture' and the 'everyday man'. Obviously, liberals and among them many anime/manga fans are outraged, but the average person is too preoccupied with his or her reputation and monotonous life to support such a cause. Besides, the overwhelming apathy is another major hurdle, the opinions such as "Oh, doesn't concern me.", people who don't even notice that someone else's morality is forced upon them.
ayase
State Alchemist
A case of:
"When they came for the lolicons,
I remained silent;
I was not a lolicon."
:lol:
But it's less the apathy of the majority that bothers me than the fact that the few people in power actually have the power to go on these little crusades and get their way with minority support. Government needs to be shown that it should stop meddling in people's personal affairs - And my solution to that problem remains the same.
"When they came for the lolicons,
I remained silent;
I was not a lolicon."
:lol:
But it's less the apathy of the majority that bothers me than the fact that the few people in power actually have the power to go on these little crusades and get their way with minority support. Government needs to be shown that it should stop meddling in people's personal affairs - And my solution to that problem remains the same.