Anime on Demand - Good news and bad news

[Rui]

I think the streaming has to be sustainable, as with simulcasts (as opposed to streaming catalogue titles already out on DVD, which also needs to happen), there's a lot more skittishness from Japan and a lot more problems with people just forgetting or losing interest by the time a show has plodded onto DVD via all of the necessary contracts and preparation. I know that comments such as, "meh, I don't even want ______ any more after waiting six months!" are quite common in the US, and while we're more used to delays over here it must still be true that a lot of the initial momentum disperses by the time the DVDs roll around.

R

 

[Vashdaman]

^
There is a certain amount of truth to that, but don't we find that the big TV hits tend to sell better on DVD than compared to quality shows that just come straight to DVD and no one knows much about? I reckon if Bebop had come out on DVD over here 6 months after airing on CNX it would have sold considerably more than if it would have never been aired. If more people are confident in the quality of a show surely more people will buy, those who watched the show and still didn't buy it probably wouldn't have done so even if it had never been streamed.

Funimation (before they region blocked the UK)

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...... that was just uncalled for!

 

[ConanThe3rd]

It has to be sustainable, sure. I'm just not sure if it'll be sustainable if they go Subscription only and, honestly what's the point of a streaming site in this state?

Tiger and Bunny got (and still had up until Monday) the best advertising it will ever have baring getting on a TV Channel.

I'll be interested to see what the numbers will be once it comes out on home video but I'll give you anything it will be a lot more than Persona 4 will be (Which got utterly kneecapped by all the nonsense it suffered) and a hell of a lot more than the next season's big show (if there's any, this season's not looking so hot) that is acquired by Kazé when only people with a Subscription can see it to any degree that can be considered legal.

At that point, it all just strikes me as a bunch of pain for not at lot of gain.

And keep in mind this is, in effect, Viz Media UK that is running this. That means that Shogakukan and Shueisha combined can't run something as simple as a streaming service in the UK.

 

[reborn]

That raises a question if Andrew is willing to answer, how in terms of Subscriptions is AoD doing well? Were they better, poorer or around what you were expecting for the service? And since your launch has there been a significant increase in subscription numbers?

 

[Reaper gI]

I'll be interested to see what the numbers will be once it comes out on home video but I'll give you anything it will be a lot more than Persona 4 will be (Which got utterly kneecapped by all the nonsense it suffered) and a hell of a lot more than the next season's big show (if there's any, this season's not looking so hot) that is acquired by Kazé when only people with a Subscription can see it to any degree that can be considered legal.

The coming seasons big show is fairly obvious (Nisemonogatari), the fact it's a sequel to a show that isn't available in English lawfully anywhere is neither here nor there.
Chances of simulcast for us are near zilch (Aniplex have a terrible record for them outside the USA and SHAFT don't like doing them).

Season's looking solid if you like sequels and 2-3 of the new ones show promise.

The competition between AoD and CR is likely going to result in my subscribing to neither if it continues as it is. With neither having enough (good) content to be worth it. All that's happening is the content we got on CR is being split between the two of them, doubling prices for the same amount of content and far worse if you weren't a CR subscriber.
Still none of the Sentai/ Anime Network simulcasts available here, almost none of locked FUNimation shows and nothing whatsoever the USA hasn't had (for free).

 

[anime_andrew]

Point 1: Glad you changed the home page video (though I wonder why on earth you need a video anyway)

As it's a video site, the tech team felt it would be good to have something on the main page, I can talk about turning that into a static rolling banner or such though depending on what fans feel in general .

Point 2: I get the feeling that just the first episode as a sampler is not going to do anything to stop anyone from going to "BT Vision" and getting the show (In HD). It's not that the first episode is available in both resolutions, it's that the show is available in any resolution without a subscription.
I honestly don't care if what you'd do is put a week delay on the free version (ala CR), just as long as the option to watch the whole show without a subscription is there.

Besides that, most shows need the three episode test (not saying you should only allow three episodes as a sampler)

These are all valid points - will keep the whole ethos in mind. I may not necessarily be able to keep content free forever but maybe we can cycle it for a period.

Say it was available 1 week after broadcast for a period of a few days only (max of 7, more likely 3-4) - would that be an acceptable trade off? Trying to find a middle ground here that is acceptable internally...

Andrew

 

[anime_andrew]

I think part of the problem is competing with the idea that anime should be free. If AoD had been pay-only from the outset, it wouldn't seem like something was being taken away. Digisubs and CR (which is a much more heavily invested in) model shouldn't really create a trend on their own, but it's apparent that they do.

That's kind of the issue there - but it's something that with hard work can be adapted to. It's never easy bucking a trend and it requires a lot more work beyond what has been done so far, but we're in for the long haul.

If I'm understanding it correctly, AoD is struggling to make the ad-supported method pay at the moment. I think it's folly to put too much stock in requests like "make everything free" or "make everything simultaneous only" or "make everything HD only", as everyone has their own personal cocktail of requests and at the end of the day it has to be a profitable exercise overall or we may as well have no anime.

It's not just us who have issues there, for niche media across the board (i.e. 25-50,000 viewers or less) ad-supported outside of the USA would have a hard time monetizing free content.

In honesty, I have heard people say before that they would prefer to download rips than watch the hobbled free streams, or people who use adblocks and other techniques to break the system, so it's a thorny issue. The existence of certain groups who deliberately clone simulcasts just to avoid paying cannot be ignored. For every JustPa, there seem to be a number of people who aren't willing to play ball with the ad-supported or paid model. It's worse for us as the UK is such a small and lame market that people behaving this way makes more of a difference.

That sums it up well really - basically long shot of it is you can never make everyone happy. I'd like to but from a financial standpoint it's not possible sadly.

Doesn't mean I won't try...

Anyway, in terms of suggestions here are mine for odd things that would make a nice difference:

More Kaze content up on the site, not limited to stream-only series (i.e. glorified DVD advertisements in the form of streamed episodes for subscribers, to sweeten the deal). Funimation seem to be doing a lot with that, and I am always linking people to their legal Hetalia streams to promote the series in ways words cannot. I'd like to be able to bully my friends into trying Vampire Knight etc in the same way! It's also a good way to bulk up the catalogue and make a subscription seem like better value.

This is a priority to me over the coming months, I just need to agree what we can do. I have a few series we have all rights for that aren't being used as well...one of which is a personal favorite of mine.

If you have series where you have the UK streaming rights but only (say) French resources for the subtitles, I'd like to see a section for that anyway to test the market here. Locking by both language and region is one of my biggest bugbears about anime streaming in general, since I can buy foreign-subbed anime from all kinds of countries on physical media. My French is pretty terrible, but I'd still find it an interesting side project.

That's an interesting one, I'd like to try it sometime and we're moving to a time you can select your subs between FR/EN if you so wish. This is a Year 2 project likely as both sides have to be persuaded it's a worthy venture first and won't upset/confuse anyone...

I'm really pleased to see the new player and to be free of the pain of ANN's terrible server stability record, and thank you to Andrew for being so quick to take feedback on board.

R

It's the least I can do there and now the system is directly in our hands, I can move a lot quicker on things. There'll be a flurry of activity just now plus a bundle of revisions in Spring too.

 

[anime_andrew]

Another idea for free streaming would be the schedule model that Nozomi use.

They put up an episode or two of a series on Youtube for everyone to watch, then next week they put up another two, and so on and so forth, but after three or four weeks, they start taking down the first episodes so at the most, there's only a block of eight episodes viewable at one time, and once the series finishes streaming it vanishes from public view.

You could have the episodes always available for subscribers, but once a month, you can stream a selected show for free to everyone in this way, and they can tune in regularly, like it's a TV channel, until the show expires.

That's a good idea too and one I'd been toying with. Pondering the logistics of it all now and will no doubt get back on it in January actually.

It all depends on what the point of Anime on Demand is...

If it's purely to monetise online streaming, then the subscription model is best. Once you have enough of a subscriber base to turn a profit, lock the content away and concentrate on maintaining the subscribers. The free trial is one way to entice potential subscribers, as is the free episode 1s. But I doubt that of those subscribers, there will be enough of them willing to buy physical releases...

For if the point of this exercise is to expand the fanbase and at the end of the day sell DVDs and Blu-rays (which given Kaze's announcement of the acquisition of physical rights for several of the AoD shows I assume it is), then locking away the content is going to harm that aim.

I really don't see why you cannot do both in the model you've described. If you can stand a TV-channel style scheduling then you watch it for free as it cycles through each month be it X show(s) a month and if you want the content as it broadcasts in Japan, you pay to do so.

You can tell I like that concept anyway - but first priority was getting the complex stuff sorted i.e. the subscription systems etc.

More on this later but I've certainly listened and will look to what can be done .

Andrew

 

[ConanThe3rd]

Point 2: I get the feeling that just the first episode as a sampler is not going to do anything to stop anyone from going to "BT Vision" and getting the show (In HD). It's not that the first episode is available in both resolutions, it's that the show is available in any resolution without a subscription.
I honestly don't care if what you'd do is put a week delay on the free version (ala CR), just as long as the option to watch the whole show without a subscription is there.

Besides that, most shows need the three episode test (not saying you should only allow three episodes as a sampler)

These are all valid points - will keep the whole ethos in mind. I may not necessarily be able to keep content free forever but maybe we can cycle it for a period.

Say it was available 1 week after broadcast for a period of a few days only (max of 7, more likely 3-4) - would that be an acceptable trade off? Trying to find a middle ground here that is acceptable internally...

Andrew

It's ether all or nothing (in SD). It does me no good to try to introduce a currently running show to someone by going "Oh, this is the scene where Tiger and Barnaby fight Shadow Kanji and everything freaking explodes! O-oh, AOD doesn't have it because it's a couple of weeks since it was on? Well, crap, what do I do now? I guess the only action is "BT VISION" because it's not worth the financial cost to show my friend this scene."

All It does is impede me from advertising the show to a friend and diminishes the potential of a sale.

The way this is going it honestly strikes me that you'll have a better time trying to partner with the likes of CR, Anime Network and Youtube and let them deal with the costs.

The difference between the idea of the TV channel vs. AOD is if I like a series on TV, I can record it off the TV rather triviality these days without further cost. I'll need to keep pumping in money if I want to do something similar with AOD and who knows if you'll ever follow through the series lifespan rule so suddenly, whoops, that money I used to subscribe suddenly doesn't allow me to legally show my friend Barnaby punching Kimimaro in the face whilst Tiger destroys the Financial District system.

If what had happened with Persona hadn't happened, I'd probably only be a bit miffed about this. That shook my faith in the product.

The coming seasons big show is fairly obvious (Nisemonogatari), the fact it's a sequel to a show that isn't available in English lawfully anywhere is neither here nor there.
Chances of simulcast for us are near zilch (Aniplex have a terrible record for them outside the USA and SHAFT don't like doing them).

Persona was Animax so, wobbly about how dare we exist in the same continent as France aside, they're perfectly fine with Streaming.

SHAFT, however, are a bunch of wasters. How Shinbo got the clout to flout deadlines like that will be a mystery that will forever elude.

 

[anime_andrew]

Well, here's the final question;
If AOD isn't viable on the merit of a two tier Adverts and Subscription model, is removing the Advert tier and pinning everything on the subscriptions really going to do turn it around?

As I've said, we have no intention of being subscriber-only for long but the format of how free content is done needs to be adapted to make sense for the non-US market.

If ad support in a traditional fashion doesn't work then it makes more sense to figure out smarter ways to do things that suit what people are OK with .

So as a simple change so far, no I don't think it will turn things around over night. But I do think that listening to what everyone wants, constantly talking to people and just generally building based on that will .

Because I'm only going to subscribe by season and for shows I like (so they better be on time not like how P4 (again, not Kaze UK's fault but the end of the day that's how that how it is) and Future Diary wound up. It'll only take a couple of seasons of pap (and it'll happen) to have AOD even more out on it's ****.

At least with the SD + Advertisement tier you got the advert revenue.

Thing is - you don't get any advertising revenue - you earn on per 1000 views of the advert usually and as I say - when you're extremely lucky, regardless of platform (NicoNico, Crunchyroll, AoD), to hit 25,000 views per episode legally in the UK, let alone 50,000+ then any revenue is often less than it costs to put the episode out there. Sadly.

 

[anime_andrew]

.More suggestions would be on the subscription types. As well as the season pass (which I don't really like, because I don't think in seasons), I'd like to see some more choices. Monthly would be nice. I'll probably go for an annual all-in pass if I'm happy trying the site out as I'm lazy, but I imagine people with less disposable cash would be open to more options. Even some kind of pay-per-viewing arrangement might be interesting? Or buying credits they can top up, so they don't feel it's a waste if a season comes and goes and no shows were to their taste?

This is something I put up for review - my opinion is KISS. So I'm considering how to proceed and am open to feedback. Logically Weekly / Monthly / Yearly seems sensible though as an alternative system.

Digging into it and a promotional price point for first 6 months of new system too.

Price review is on-going until Spring season so plenty of time to feedback on that.

Andrew

 

[ConanThe3rd]

If you pardon me for saying as much. It strikes me that AOD was never going to work in a viable form, we've been fed a false hope about streaming anime exclusively in the UK and all said, we've been given the same run-around that TV has given us since about 2003.

 

[anime_andrew]

It's ether all or nothing (in SD). It does me no good to try to introduce a currently running show to someone by going "Oh, this is the scene where Tiger and Barnaby fight Shadow Kanji and everything freaking explodes! O-oh, AOD doesn't have it because it's a couple of weeks since it was on? Well, crap, what do I do now? I guess the only action is "BT VISION" because it's not worth the financial cost to show my friend this scene."

All It does is impede me from advertising the show to a friend and diminishes the potential of a sale.

This is exactly the same argument people would use on an episode of Doctor Who though from an older season of Christopher Eccleston or David Tennant though for example. It's not a revolutionary argument or fallback, certainly not one that immediately validates putting it up always for free.

The way this is going it honestly strikes me that you'll have a better time trying to partner with the likes of CR, Anime Network and Youtube and let them deal with the costs.

That's a nice theory but a number of factors mean that doesn't make it better otherwise everyone would do that. However the biggest partnership you see in the USA is with Hulu. This is because they provide the biggest advertising revenue, allow you to fashion a system around it (I know two US legal anime streaming sites who are using it).

You can see where that is going WRT partnerships outside of the USA too - there are a lot of other business reasons that it isn't practical.

Our partnership with ANN was a good one though and we're still looking at how we can integrate things in a cooler way though .

The difference between the idea of the TV channel vs. AOD is if I like a series on TV, I can record it off the TV rather triviality these days without further cost. I'll need to keep pumping in money if I want to do something similar with AOD and who knows if you'll ever follow through the series lifespan rule so suddenly, whoops, that money I used to subscribe suddenly doesn't allow me to legally show my friend Barnaby punching Kimimaro in the face whilst Tiger destroys the Financial District system.

Well if you pay to subscribe - the content is there for longer and at lower cost without recording than if you had a TV license and didn't record it. Or had to tape over the file nowadays.

If people don't pay and want to watch the video, if it happens I'd personally rather do it ad-free for a limited period than forever free ad-supported which doesn't really benefit anyone.

Am open to listen to everyone's views - though I can't guarantee ever that I can make everything happen!

 

[Rui]

Conan, you're wandering into non-constructive territory again with that last one ^^;

The difference between the idea of the TV channel vs. AOD is if I like a series on TV, I can record it off the TV rather triviality these days without further cost. I'll need to keep pumping in money if I want to do something similar with AOD and who knows if you'll ever follow through the series lifespan rule so suddenly, whoops, that money I used to subscribe suddenly doesn't allow me to legally show my friend Barnaby punching Kimimaro in the face whilst Tiger destroys the Financial District system.

I think we were saying the subscribers still could pull up the older content, it's just the free content which would be cycled, which is a lot like TV; the content might not be up there forever but hopefully by the time it vanishes there will be physical discs around. It sounds though from what you are saying that you'd prefer some kind of download-to-own model after a time. I know this model has mostly completely failed in the US, but perhaps that's one line of thinking?

Also, you do pay a subscription for TV in the form of a licence.

R

 

[anime_andrew]

Also, given the industry wide backing behind AoD, Beez, MVM, Manga and Kaze, where are the sample episodes from these distributors to promote their latest releases,

where are the Girl Who Leapt Through space, Phantom: Requiem For The Phantom, Welcome to the NHK, and Samurai Girls episode 1s to sell those shows to us fans?

Working on it actually now!

Should see something on this as soon as January time.

Andrew

 

[anime_andrew]

What about trying to get rights to dubbed/subbed only content that isn't viable for DVD sales in the UK but could potentially be a part of either the current subscription or a different one for AoD?

That way you're not only getting attention from those who don't watch subs but you're offering a little more variety.

Looking into that actually as an option -one issue is keeping your digital offerings simple so unless the Annual Pass cost more and had that within it, then it'd be really tough to do.

I'm keen on the concept though - how does everyone else feel? Will ask folks over the next year and see how they feel too .

Also pick up those titles which may have been dropped mid-way during DVD release?

I can look into that but it's a very specific sub-set which usually means the title has been locked down by someone with rights still. Any titles particularly in mind?

Andrew

 

[anime_andrew]

One thing I will suggest though is the possible addition of a "Series Pass". Where say, if a show is expected to last multiple seasons, people can buy a pass to exclusively watch that series (with a price that's obviously less than buying 2 season passes) - would that be at all possible? Saying that though, the £9.99 price of a season pass really isn't that much; the average show will last 1 or 2 seasons, so that'd only be £20 over quite a long period...so not sure if a "Series Pass" would be needed? (Well, until AOD stream a 50+ episode show).

That's something I'm trying to figure out now - there are a lot of logistics and the biggest issue we have found with experience already is that if you introduce too many price points / offerings, you end up confusing a lot of people.

Am certainly thinking it all through just now though - 26 episode series could work that way at least.

 

[ConanThe3rd]

Do what you want, let's see where we are in six months on a subscriber only model.

Not rocket science; current season, let people see it in SD. Get monies from Home Video and Subscriptions, done.

Not going to happen, AOD is on life support.

And I wash my hands completely of this situation.

 

[ayase]

What about trying to get rights to dubbed/subbed only content that isn't viable for DVD sales in the UK but could potentially be a part of either the current subscription or a different one for AoD?

That way you're not only getting attention from those who don't watch subs but you're offering a little more variety.

Looking into that actually as an option -one issue is keeping your digital offerings simple so unless the Annual Pass cost more and had that within it, then it'd be really tough to do.

I'm keen on the concept though - how does everyone else feel? Will ask folks over the next year and see how they feel too

Would there be any huge obstacle stopping you from offering more niche shows on a download-to-own basis instead? I've largely stayed out of this discussion as I'm a physical media person and streaming still fails to interest me as a medium of watching anime - But I would be very interested if there was a way to legally obtain hitherto unobtainable shows, even digitally.

 

[jonno394]

Andrew, ever so slightly OT but in some way still related to the topic, I see some of the upcoming Kaze French BD titles like Mardock Scramble will have English subtitles.

Due to the disparity in the amount of new anime released in the likes of France and particularly Germany compared to the UK I was wondering What is the process for determining which of the titles will feature English subs?

I am extremely envious of the amount of sets the likes of France get (I would like the Fate Night and Blue Dragon sets, teh Aoi Bungaku series etc)