Anime Limited updates and ideas - DRR / Gurren edition
- Thread starter anime_andrew
- Start date
Quick observations.
I've seen more than one person say they'd be less keen on the LE because they hadn't seen the show, which makes sense. It's on Crunchyroll in the US - is there any way you can get it on the streaming circuit before the release over here, too, so that people who like the idea of LEs but haven't seen the show have a chance to make a decision without resorting to illegal means or eating into sales by going for the old DVDs?
I personally like the model of releasing a premium edition upfront and then a regular set later on. It works well in Japan and seems to be working in the US, too. It's not like TTGL is a brand new show; if someone has waited years for it already, waiting an extra x months for a cheaper edition isn't going to kill them. Especially if the actual TV episodes are legally available on a streaming site.
But I think it's critical to be upfront with the user base and get word out that a barebones set will be following to dissipate some of the anger that people get (it's not quite the same thing, but Aniplex's DVD-only special editions like Zetsuen No Tempest and Blue Exorcist really annoy me. It's obvious there will be a decent BD set later on and they refuse to be transparent about it).
Arguably, you could also use the reaction to the LE to decide once and for all what to do with Parallel Works and the movies for the regular release. I'd personally favour releasing the movies/Parallel Works as a standalone BD (or even a combo pack) for the hardcore fans who skipped the LE set due to bad luck/money troubles/hating nice things/not liking the box art or some other reason. And if you do that, I'd do it close to the release of the cheaper TV series sets (whether simultaneous or delayed) as I think a large part of the slow sales in the US was due to the series having dropped off the radar for most people who watched it a long time before the movie sets came out. Do you have all of the extra videos, such as the event footage and the S.t.a.r.S music video footage? If you listed out all of that content and put it with the movies, I think it would more than justify a reasonable price as a standalone release.
If the regular edition BD is held back a few months, I agree that holding back the DVD set would also make sense. It would make the premium version feel more attractive, again without especially punishing people who have already gone without the show for years voluntarily. If the DVD buyers are only interested in DVD regardless, though, it might mean delaying your revenue from the title for no particular reason.
On the subject of streaming sites, this is somewhat irrelevant to the matter at hand but I noticed that Crunchyroll's new simulpub service advertises the physical books of the earlier volumes of Attack On Titan and lets you buy directly from their store as far as I can tell. It would be smashing if you could get the title(s) onto Crunchyroll and also convince them to add a note for UK viewers in the description saying that the physical release is on the way.
Lastly, I know there are issues, but...if you can get Gurren Lagann region free I'd preorder the LE without a second thought. Still haven't got a UK BD player, and still don't have enough faith in the UK market to justify one when I have half a dozen devices set to region A now ^^;
I'm afraid I'd pass on DRRR unless it came with new content, as I have the Beez release and also the imported BD set. Even though it's a fantastic show there are only so many times I can buy it without cutting too far into my budget for other things, so I'll convince a friend to buy it instead.
R
I've seen more than one person say they'd be less keen on the LE because they hadn't seen the show, which makes sense. It's on Crunchyroll in the US - is there any way you can get it on the streaming circuit before the release over here, too, so that people who like the idea of LEs but haven't seen the show have a chance to make a decision without resorting to illegal means or eating into sales by going for the old DVDs?
I personally like the model of releasing a premium edition upfront and then a regular set later on. It works well in Japan and seems to be working in the US, too. It's not like TTGL is a brand new show; if someone has waited years for it already, waiting an extra x months for a cheaper edition isn't going to kill them. Especially if the actual TV episodes are legally available on a streaming site.
But I think it's critical to be upfront with the user base and get word out that a barebones set will be following to dissipate some of the anger that people get (it's not quite the same thing, but Aniplex's DVD-only special editions like Zetsuen No Tempest and Blue Exorcist really annoy me. It's obvious there will be a decent BD set later on and they refuse to be transparent about it).
Arguably, you could also use the reaction to the LE to decide once and for all what to do with Parallel Works and the movies for the regular release. I'd personally favour releasing the movies/Parallel Works as a standalone BD (or even a combo pack) for the hardcore fans who skipped the LE set due to bad luck/money troubles/hating nice things/not liking the box art or some other reason. And if you do that, I'd do it close to the release of the cheaper TV series sets (whether simultaneous or delayed) as I think a large part of the slow sales in the US was due to the series having dropped off the radar for most people who watched it a long time before the movie sets came out. Do you have all of the extra videos, such as the event footage and the S.t.a.r.S music video footage? If you listed out all of that content and put it with the movies, I think it would more than justify a reasonable price as a standalone release.
If the regular edition BD is held back a few months, I agree that holding back the DVD set would also make sense. It would make the premium version feel more attractive, again without especially punishing people who have already gone without the show for years voluntarily. If the DVD buyers are only interested in DVD regardless, though, it might mean delaying your revenue from the title for no particular reason.
On the subject of streaming sites, this is somewhat irrelevant to the matter at hand but I noticed that Crunchyroll's new simulpub service advertises the physical books of the earlier volumes of Attack On Titan and lets you buy directly from their store as far as I can tell. It would be smashing if you could get the title(s) onto Crunchyroll and also convince them to add a note for UK viewers in the description saying that the physical release is on the way.
Lastly, I know there are issues, but...if you can get Gurren Lagann region free I'd preorder the LE without a second thought. Still haven't got a UK BD player, and still don't have enough faith in the UK market to justify one when I have half a dozen devices set to region A now ^^;
I'm afraid I'd pass on DRRR unless it came with new content, as I have the Beez release and also the imported BD set. Even though it's a fantastic show there are only so many times I can buy it without cutting too far into my budget for other things, so I'll convince a friend to buy it instead.
R
ConanThe3rd
Railgun
Re Airlines; Yes but You don't get told you have to wait six months because you booked economy. There's a difference between tiered service (Ultimate, Regular, DVD) and flat out antagonism against paying customers who are paying in a lower tier.AntAce said:
Re Re Crunchyroll; Yes but in the Case of GL, you're paying with both money AND time and that's just poor form.
Second point: Then wouldn't having the Regular Edition being on the shelves at the same time make for sense?
mangaman74
Akatsuki
reborn said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digipak
In terms of who have used them, Professor Layton & the Eternal Diva Combo Pack used one,
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/customer-med ... F8&index=3
Also Funimation has used them in the past with the DBZ Orange boxes,
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/customer-med ... F8&index=0
and Viz has used digipacks for shows like Prince of Tennis and, if my memory is correct, the original season sets of Inu Yasha.
For the record I HATE digipacks and would much prefer any release of GL to include regular bd cases instead of digipacks.
ConanThe3rd
Railgun
As long as we never see another Pinball case ever again, I'll be fine.
Kazé's death will mean the world if they took Pinball cases with them.
Kazé's death will mean the world if they took Pinball cases with them.
Rui said:
Absolutely - watch this space for more info, I'd like it available as widely as possible for digital sampling so there'll definitely be a chance before release especially as both shows overlap with ones simulcasting just now
. I think try before you buy is very important and a legal means to do so is critical - one doesn't cannibalise the other in my opinion anyway.Rui said:
Agreed - it's 100% about transparency about it which is also why I'm gathering opinions now as it really helps form that plan and the message that we will send out going forwards over the next few months.
Rui said:
Absolutely a fair point and well articulated - to be honest the very point of throwing the debate open was to stimulate conversation about how the movies and PW content was managed. It's precisely this kind of arguement motivating me to go back and reconsider...
Rui said:
I don't think holding DVD back is a good move as we'll aim to do same as Bebop there, nice packaging and a £49.99 SRP for whole show to help cover the costs of doing so. Will do our best to include whatever we can in that to make it appealing too
.Rui said:
Less about us convincing them to do that and more them coming back to us with some kind of proposal at this stage! But the concept is the same with every service we work with honestly
.Rui said:
Sadly we're gubbed there, no way AoA or Aniplex JP would allow that - but I'd like to see what we can do with building trust to unlock one day. For now though it's just not going to happen I'm afraid
.Rui said:
Don't worry - I understand and to a degree we know there's some drop-off always when import options are there. That said - convincing friends definitely welcome
!Andrew
AntAce
Student Council President
My point was in the context of some customers being treated as if they're second class citizens, and there is no antagonism in releasing a cheaper version of GL a few months later. Antagonistic would be not releasing a cheaper, less content heavy iteration at all.ConanThe3rd said:
That would depend on where the majority of Anime Limited sales are being made - the online or physical retail space. If a certain threshold of sales are being made through places like Amazon it could be beneficial to ignore brick and mortars completely. That's probably not the case and only Andrew could answer such a question, but it certainly doesn't invalidate a staggered release for the GL boxsets. Putting on my 'poison' cap again, people willing to pay a premium for the Ultimate edition from an online store may forgo it completely when confronted with the cheaper version in HMV not necessarily because of the price, but because it's there - they don't have to wait for a parcel from Amazon.
ConanThe3rd
Railgun
Well thats where You and I are like the Ranger and the Celtic, the Nintendo and the Sega, the Children's British Broadcasting Corporation and the Children's Independent Television (thechildrenschannel4lyfe). For I verily see the staged release as the tool of The Darkness upon which even Nintendo has viewed as folly and lo it's use will bring nought but anger, wrath and the not buying of Japanese Cartoons, praise his noodly appendages.
And lo, he will use his agents, the pirate, to teach this lesson upon the world and may his pope's rubbery arm of logic strike you in your facilities so you can see the truth and be learned, he of the poison hat, for it is not you we hate but your illogical business nonsense upon which you'd make the learned man of money suffer as greatfuly as unjustly.
And lo, he will use his agents, the pirate, to teach this lesson upon the world and may his pope's rubbery arm of logic strike you in your facilities so you can see the truth and be learned, he of the poison hat, for it is not you we hate but your illogical business nonsense upon which you'd make the learned man of money suffer as greatfuly as unjustly.
ConanThe3rd said:
Not sure I appreciate the implications flying around. This whole thread has spiralled quite significantly - I asked for polite and constructive discussion - not veiled accusations or people getting that bitey toward one another. If this keeps going then I'll be forced to just wind it down next time to avoid causing a big fuss - so play nice everyone, please.
It's cool if there's a difference in opinion or if people are dissatisfied with an idea and either want to offer ideas to fix it or just lodge that it seems a bad idea for some reason.. But there's definitely a way to do that without being rude and I'm happy to say almost everyone has that going for them here so I feel like a grumpy parent picking up the few straggling less well spirited comments xD.
For the record I asked for people's opinions because:
A) I can still change everything from ground up on the Gurren Lagann model if a convincing argument is made.
B) I had not yet set if we would release Ultimate + Regular editions of the title at the same time or not - my initial scenario above where in fact they both came out at the same time and others suggested a delay.
C) For what it's worth I think giving consumer choice is worthwhile but then you have to debate what makes Ultimate, Ultimate vs Regular Regular.
One solution to this, if things had been in a constructive manner (which I see others did later atcually0 would have been to suggest a regular edition with TV only would be cool, given as I've said before authoring + print costs on a BD50 is crazy expensive still vs DVD - but also to release the films and Parallel Works separately either as a complete set or otherwise.
Based on a lot of the ideas going round - here is what seems to forming:
BLU-RAY:
- ULTIMATE EDITION - £149.99 SRP / rigid case / artbook (likely A5 to fit into the box) / limited to 1,000 copies / numbered.
- REGULAR EDITION TV - £59.99 SRP / Amaray / TV series / 4 BDs
- REGULAR EDITION FILMS - Price TBD / Amaray or Bebop-style packaging / Films 1 + 2 + Parallel Works
OR:
- REGULAR EDITION - £79.99 SRP / Amaray Packaging / TV series / Movies / Parallel Works
DVD:
- PREMIUM EDITION - £59.99 / £69.99 SRP - With TV series + Movies + Parallel Works / Bebop-style packaging.
Open for further debate but so far it seems like an experiment in consumer choice may be called for by putting both versions on the market around the same time. At most a window of 1 month or 2 months between them max.
Anything here tickling people?
AP
mangaman74 said:
Interesting as we debated using them as it is moderately cheaper (by a few microns) but I always thought it made the box look a bit cheaper as you can do less with the out-facing spine than you can on a Digipack. What makes you float the other way on it out of curiosity
?Best,
AP
Rosencrantz
Dragon Knight
Rui said:
This seems to be a key point in my opinion as well, upfront info about what the release plan is.
----
Now, I've read through the thread a couple of times and mulled it over and it really does occur to me that the issue of premium versus standard edition only really applies to Gurren Lagann. Afterall what other title has movies and OAVS like this and is an old catalogue title? In most cases we'd just have the movie separately or the OAV would be part of the existing US package.
I think we have reasonably broad agreement that while physical extras are nice they don't necessarily warrant a large price hike over actually extra disc content. In which case I can't ever see a scenario apart from Gurren Lagann where Anime Limited might want to consider doing a premium BD set and a regular BD set.
So the question boils down to what is a better release plan, all at once or staggered.
If we are giving customers proper upfront info about release plans they can decide for themselves if they want to spend the extra for everything GL has to offer or if they just want the series on BD, in which case you release everything at the same time. You'd only be able to make extra sales of the premium edition if you announced it without ever giving customers hope of a regular release.
This will anger the camp that would want all the disc content but on a standard release, but we need to compromise somewhere. The alternative would be having a solo release of the premium set and a large wait for a budget release, this would also anger fans and also be potentially non viable due to AL not being able to make a profit squeezing large amounts of content onto a budget release.
-edit- needed to remove a typo that made it sound like I was some kind of undercover AL staff member :?
ConanThe3rd
Railgun
Honestly the "Get Series on BR at BR Edition price, get Movies/PR if doable later at roughly the same time as the Ultimate Edition which has all that stuff and so on" scenario works for me where "Roughly" is like a few weeks to a month between releases.anime_andrew said:
Any longer comes off as previous.
Really, if in the future it was like "OK, You get the Aniplex edition (Super Edition that washes your cat and makes Juein Fries), the BR Edition (Is the show) and the DVD eidtion (Is the show, but on DVD)" with apropo prices (140/70/50) and sensible to non-existent time windows between each release then I'd be fine.
And the movies/PW I think.britguy said:
mangaman74
Akatsuki
anime_andrew said:mangaman74 said:
Interesting as we debated using them as it is moderately cheaper (by a few microns) but I always thought it made the box look a bit cheaper as you can do less with the out-facing spine than you can on a Digipack. What makes you float the other way on it out of curiosity
Best,
AP
As someone who has been buying anime for years (first dvd was back around May/June 2000) I have purchased releases in different packaging and the two I really hate are spindle and digipack because of bad experiences. With spindles I have Vandread - 6 discs stacked upon each other is a pain when you want disc 6.
With regards to digipacks while I liked the DBZ Orange boxes I disliked the packaging since there would be one disc stacked on top of another times by 3 for a six disc set plus a booklet so it would be a case of trying to get a disc out without dropping any of the other discs or the booklet (I keep my dvds/blu-rays stored in my bedroom while my dvd and blu-ray players are downstairs so I prefer to get the disc out then take it to the player rather than take the complete set). Viz also used digipacks as well for shows like Prince of Tennis and Inu Yasha and I did not like the packaging for them. I have always felt that digipacks are flimsy. If we were talking about a release with only 2 discs I would not be complaining (I have the Cowboy Bebop bd sets after all) but this is going to be more than 2 discs which is why I felt I had to say something (better to complain before the release so something can be done than grumble about it afterwards).
I already own the Aniplex USA bd release of Durarara (which is why I have not given my views on that) and that came with cases not a digipack. I do not feel that it is worth less because of the cases.
A few weeks or a couple of months at most would be a fine delay in my opinion (if you decide on a delay). Early access is a nice bonus even if it's only a week or so early, and it arguably lets feedback from the early adopters start hyping the release ready for the masses to come in and buy the standard edition. The first press and subsequent regular edition works for me in general but the UK is its own beast (well, I always buy the first press...having said that, I also think it creates a sense of urgency if a LE is actually viewed as being genuinely limited, which NISA have been balancing quite well).
Of the last round of options the split TV/non-TV regular editions looks best to me, partly as you can be more playful with the pricing that way so LE-buyers won't feel screwed, but also because of Josh's point that single large purchases can put some people off more. I also think £80 RRP standard edition all-in set undervalues the series and movies/all extras, but then I bought the JP Parallel Works first press sets and stuff. I might not see them as the valueless throw-ins that some folks do!
On packaging I like anything other than those 'eco' BD cases with half the plastic removed so if you apply any pressure they deform and damage the covers. Worst idea ever. They always make me feel cheated. Cases which stay shut are preferred over those which don't i.e. UK Bebop rather than UK DRRR (DVD).
R
Of the last round of options the split TV/non-TV regular editions looks best to me, partly as you can be more playful with the pricing that way so LE-buyers won't feel screwed, but also because of Josh's point that single large purchases can put some people off more. I also think £80 RRP standard edition all-in set undervalues the series and movies/all extras, but then I bought the JP Parallel Works first press sets and stuff. I might not see them as the valueless throw-ins that some folks do!
On packaging I like anything other than those 'eco' BD cases with half the plastic removed so if you apply any pressure they deform and damage the covers. Worst idea ever. They always make me feel cheated. Cases which stay shut are preferred over those which don't i.e. UK Bebop rather than UK DRRR (DVD).
R
Mangaranga
Za Warudo
I think one question you have to ask here is just how many people are going to want to buy two compilation films separately. From what I hear the two movies are pretty much the TV series condensed down. How many UK fans do you think actually know about them, let alone would be interested in buying the sub only films on top of the Dual Audio TV series? At the end of the day, I do really think that you need to inform the wider audience about them and pose that question to them, we're only a very small part of the fanbase. Maybe on twitter/facebook, or via a poll on Wakanim etc.? I also have to question whether it's actually cost effective for you to author the extra two discs for the movies and only sell them as part of that limited 1000 print run.
I also hate to say it, but whilst I personally love the idea of getting an ultimate collectors edition set including absolutely everything, is there definitely going to be another 999 people in the UK (and Australia I suppose since I've seen quite a few Aussie's who imported Bebop) who will be willing to pay up to £149 for it on Bluray? If Manga posing the question about GiTS:SAC on Bluray has taught me anything it's that a majority of UK fans expect everything to be dirt Cheap. I mean, Manga asked on FB/Twitter whether people would buy two half sets at a £34.99 SRP each per Season, and people came back saying they'd only pay £20-30 per season, and that's before you address the fact that a lot of people unfortunately STILL stick to DVDs. Like GiTS, you'll also be putting out a product which has already been released in the UK before, so there will be people who bought it the first time round and won't necessarily want to upgrade. I don't honestly know how Amazon works, but to see what interest in the LE is like, would it be possible to create a pre-order page on Amazon for the LE with a mock-up of the final product, put the message out that it's up for pre-order then look at the numbers over time to see how it does?
Everything I'm saying here is pretty much the opposite of what I want, but I'm just trying to give you as much realistic feedback as I can. Whilst I definitely think RE BD/DVD are a safe bet, I think that you'd need to reach out and ask more people whether they would be willing to buy an Ultimate Edition or the Movies.
Sorry in advance if this post is a rambling mess. I'm pretty tired at the time of writing :3
I also hate to say it, but whilst I personally love the idea of getting an ultimate collectors edition set including absolutely everything, is there definitely going to be another 999 people in the UK (and Australia I suppose since I've seen quite a few Aussie's who imported Bebop) who will be willing to pay up to £149 for it on Bluray? If Manga posing the question about GiTS:SAC on Bluray has taught me anything it's that a majority of UK fans expect everything to be dirt Cheap. I mean, Manga asked on FB/Twitter whether people would buy two half sets at a £34.99 SRP each per Season, and people came back saying they'd only pay £20-30 per season, and that's before you address the fact that a lot of people unfortunately STILL stick to DVDs. Like GiTS, you'll also be putting out a product which has already been released in the UK before, so there will be people who bought it the first time round and won't necessarily want to upgrade. I don't honestly know how Amazon works, but to see what interest in the LE is like, would it be possible to create a pre-order page on Amazon for the LE with a mock-up of the final product, put the message out that it's up for pre-order then look at the numbers over time to see how it does?
Everything I'm saying here is pretty much the opposite of what I want, but I'm just trying to give you as much realistic feedback as I can. Whilst I definitely think RE BD/DVD are a safe bet, I think that you'd need to reach out and ask more people whether they would be willing to buy an Ultimate Edition or the Movies.
Sorry in advance if this post is a rambling mess. I'm pretty tired at the time of writing :3
BanzaiJedi
Pokémon Master
Having given this some consideration, I think that a 2 month delay between Ultimate and Regular editions would be appropriate. It gives the Ultimate edition time to sell and everyone else can still see the Regular edition is readily available for preorder at the same time. I think any longer delay would make life stressful for you and your staff, always answering the same questions on twitter/fb "why is this taking so long, don't you want my money?" etc. Also a longer delay might push some prospective RE BD buyers into buying the DVD instead, which is a step backwards however you look at it. I really do hope this works out for you, it would be a huge step forward for the UK anime market. I hope for the best case scenario which sees most big releases get an UE and MVM and Manga start following suit (I'm an optimist, I know).
As for the RE (which I would be most likely to buy) I think if I found two versions on a shelf in HMV, one with all the disc content found in the UE, and one with just the main series, I would probably buy the one with everything included, so that makes my preference obvious. If the content was split into two releases (series/movies) it's a simple fact that I may never get around to buying the movies individually seeing as they are recap movies. I suspect most people would be the same, just look at Manga's releases of the Death Note and GitS SAC recap movies, they flopped. And they where on cheap old DVD, not expensive BD. That's why Jerome is so reluctant to release the first two Madoka movies. What I would say to you regarding the RE BD is either put the movies in the set with the main series or just don't bother with them at all (outside of the UE of course).
As for packaging, I have no problem with the RE using Amaray cases, but that said the Bebop packaging is very nice and I would feel a greater sense of satisfaction seeing that on my shelf. Just don't go back to the Beez style digipacks with the loose sheet of paper that gets all crumpled everytime I move my DVDs along the shelf. Very annoying.
As for the RE (which I would be most likely to buy) I think if I found two versions on a shelf in HMV, one with all the disc content found in the UE, and one with just the main series, I would probably buy the one with everything included, so that makes my preference obvious. If the content was split into two releases (series/movies) it's a simple fact that I may never get around to buying the movies individually seeing as they are recap movies. I suspect most people would be the same, just look at Manga's releases of the Death Note and GitS SAC recap movies, they flopped. And they where on cheap old DVD, not expensive BD. That's why Jerome is so reluctant to release the first two Madoka movies. What I would say to you regarding the RE BD is either put the movies in the set with the main series or just don't bother with them at all (outside of the UE of course).
As for packaging, I have no problem with the RE using Amaray cases, but that said the Bebop packaging is very nice and I would feel a greater sense of satisfaction seeing that on my shelf. Just don't go back to the Beez style digipacks with the loose sheet of paper that gets all crumpled everytime I move my DVDs along the shelf. Very annoying.