IncendiaryLemon
Captain Karen
Probably worth noting that Sound isn't a Yuri show. There's teasing and hints, but nothing concrete.
Yuri, yaoi, sexuality and anime
- Thread starter IncendiaryLemon
- Start date
Probably worth noting that Sound isn't a Yuri show. There's teasing and hints, but nothing concrete.
Buzz201
Mad Scientist
I was really just using that as shorthand for yaoi-bait and yuri-bait respectively. Technically, I haven't seen any straight Yaoi or Yuri and I'm not sure I care too...
IncendiaryLemon
Captain Karen
But in that respect, Sound is no more explicit than YOI.
Buzz201
Mad Scientist
I'm not sure I'd agree. There's a difference between something the audience asked for confirmation was really a kiss and some of the gross saliva explosion images I've seen purportedly from Sound!
IncendiaryLemon
Captain Karen
There is not a single gay kiss in Sound. Hell, I don't think there's a single kiss in Sound full stop. I think you may be confusing it with Sakura Trick...
Buzz201
Mad Scientist
mrclt1994
Hunter
As much as I know this is true, it still saddens me.
Smeelia
Thousand Master
I think the important thing to remember is that Yuri and Yaoi can actually be used to describe quite a wide variety of content, so neither are necessarily reliable when it comes to trying to guess if the content of a show is likely to appeal to you. There's fanservice heavy content of both, often aimed at the opposite sex of the pairing involved, and there's content that tends to focus on the relationships and feelings without showing much intimate interaction. There's also pretty much everything in between and probably a bit more on either end.
You probably wouldn't immediately consider Yuri on Ice to be the same sort of show as Love Stage or Super Lovers, just as you wouldn't necessarily throw Aoi Hana, YuruYuri and Sakura Trick together. They're all different shows, even if they share some vague similarities and may be grouped together for some searches.
There aren't really too many character/relationship focussed shows centred mainly on same-sex relationships in general. I'll often mention Aoi Hana as a favourite of those kinds of shows and it's over seven years old now. Admittedly, there are a good few shows that I haven't watched, but they're still fairly uncommon. There is a fairly specific subset of Yuri content that is probably somewhat more common in shows these days but even it tends not to be a focus in most (though it might seem to get the most attention from fans).
The terminology itself can also cause complications. Yuri tends to be used for just about anything involving same-sex female relationships. Yaoi is used by some to specifically refer to more explicit male same-sex relationship content, while others use it more generally. There's also Boy's Love (or BL), which tends to be the "lighter" version of Yaoi (you may very rarely hear Girl's Love as the female equivalent) but seems to be less popular to use these days. There are other things as well, like Bara (which tends to be used for male aimed male same-sex content). I'd imagine there are plenty of other terms too, so it can get kind of complicated.
I guess I'm just making my usual point that you should be cautious about generalisation and not assume that you know what someone's talking about just because they use a seemingly familiar term.
On a sort of related note, when people are talking about and posting about certain shows they may have a tendency to overemphasise specific aspects. One of my favourite Yuri romance shows this year was Amanchu, which is almost certainly not officially a Yuri romance show. Even so, it's easy to read more into it than may have been intended and I don't feel that kissing or other forms of romantic intimacy are essential to make a good romance. Just try to convince me that TekoPikari aren't life partners (they even have a group name). I may have gotten sidetracked there, what I mean is that you can't necessarily rely on enthusiastic fan posts or gifs from shows to get a good feel of what the show is like as a whole. When it comes to shows that people feel strongly about, there's usually more going on than you might expect (although you might still not understand what they see in it).
You probably wouldn't immediately consider Yuri on Ice to be the same sort of show as Love Stage or Super Lovers, just as you wouldn't necessarily throw Aoi Hana, YuruYuri and Sakura Trick together. They're all different shows, even if they share some vague similarities and may be grouped together for some searches.
There aren't really too many character/relationship focussed shows centred mainly on same-sex relationships in general. I'll often mention Aoi Hana as a favourite of those kinds of shows and it's over seven years old now. Admittedly, there are a good few shows that I haven't watched, but they're still fairly uncommon. There is a fairly specific subset of Yuri content that is probably somewhat more common in shows these days but even it tends not to be a focus in most (though it might seem to get the most attention from fans).
The terminology itself can also cause complications. Yuri tends to be used for just about anything involving same-sex female relationships. Yaoi is used by some to specifically refer to more explicit male same-sex relationship content, while others use it more generally. There's also Boy's Love (or BL), which tends to be the "lighter" version of Yaoi (you may very rarely hear Girl's Love as the female equivalent) but seems to be less popular to use these days. There are other things as well, like Bara (which tends to be used for male aimed male same-sex content). I'd imagine there are plenty of other terms too, so it can get kind of complicated.
I guess I'm just making my usual point that you should be cautious about generalisation and not assume that you know what someone's talking about just because they use a seemingly familiar term.
On a sort of related note, when people are talking about and posting about certain shows they may have a tendency to overemphasise specific aspects. One of my favourite Yuri romance shows this year was Amanchu, which is almost certainly not officially a Yuri romance show. Even so, it's easy to read more into it than may have been intended and I don't feel that kissing or other forms of romantic intimacy are essential to make a good romance. Just try to convince me that TekoPikari aren't life partners (they even have a group name). I may have gotten sidetracked there, what I mean is that you can't necessarily rely on enthusiastic fan posts or gifs from shows to get a good feel of what the show is like as a whole. When it comes to shows that people feel strongly about, there's usually more going on than you might expect (although you might still not understand what they see in it).
Buzz201
Mad Scientist
I think it's especially interesting that even amongst yaoi-bait shows I've seen, even ones with expressed same-sex relationships, there are no gay characters. I've made this point before, but the only explicitly confirmed gay character I've seen is Bulat in Akame ga Kill!. I know many consider it brave to not label things, and I guess they're right, it's a much less judgemental way of doing things. Being in a same-sex relationship doesn't make one homosexual, but then equally I have seen complaints about the lack of bisexuality in anime. I suspect some of this ambiguity is down to the whole idea that if Victor isn't explicitly homosexual there's still a chance he could (if he were real) get with a female member of the intended audience, and actually explicit confirmation might not be commercially advantageous.
It seems that in many ways people make assumptions about these types of shows because they're deliberately quite ambiguous.
Also, for what it's worth, @IncendiaryLemon explicitly banned me from watching Sound! so gifs are all I have to go on.
Smeelia
Thousand Master
I guess it can be a tough one because some people do like to specifically identify as a particular sexuality, and consider that an important part of their identity, but some people prefer to avoid the potential limitations that a label can bring or simply don't feel a specific label is necessary. It's not unrealistic to have characters never describe their sexuality. Still, some people like to feel that they're being represented in fiction and if their specifically identified sexuality is important to them then they may want to see characters who feel the same.
Personally, I do feel that labels can be too restrictive and grouping people together can cause problems by making it easier for people to feel they need to "take sides". Still, I suppose those aren't inherent problems with labelling, as long as people are somewhat flexible and open minded then they should be avoidable.
I think the larger issue might be in trying to make characters who are openly proud of their sexuality in a way that feels realistic. It's probably the sort of thing that people will pay close attention to and some people are likely to have unrealistic and/or very specific expectations of the way that such characters should be written. Even putting a lot of effort into a character could lead to an unwanted focus on that character and/or potentially disappointing reactions. Unless it's absolutely crucial to the show, it's probably easier to avoid being particularly specific. I don't know if that's really an excuse but it's probably at least an explanation.
Personally, I do feel that labels can be too restrictive and grouping people together can cause problems by making it easier for people to feel they need to "take sides". Still, I suppose those aren't inherent problems with labelling, as long as people are somewhat flexible and open minded then they should be avoidable.
I think the larger issue might be in trying to make characters who are openly proud of their sexuality in a way that feels realistic. It's probably the sort of thing that people will pay close attention to and some people are likely to have unrealistic and/or very specific expectations of the way that such characters should be written. Even putting a lot of effort into a character could lead to an unwanted focus on that character and/or potentially disappointing reactions. Unless it's absolutely crucial to the show, it's probably easier to avoid being particularly specific. I don't know if that's really an excuse but it's probably at least an explanation.
IdiomaticLynx
Student Council President
I think you're right about this. There are not many cases where the sexuality of a character is crucial to the point that it should be fully explored in the show itself. In case it is, simply having said character stating it, would probably not suffice and you end up with the whole labelling problem.
Leaving the sexuality of a character ambiguous has its advantages. Those who don't want to acknowledge any of it, can easily write it off as a quirk of the character and others can easily fit their view with the few hints/suggestions made. But, ultimately I think not making it explicit leaves the door open to more complex situations where no clear term exists.
What I want to see in a show is the feelings between the characters and the significance of said feelings for both parties. Whether these feelings arose from friendship, romantic or sexual interest, rivalry, admiration or a mix of those, comes second, but can add up to a deeper understanding of the characters.
Hold on a second, is there some way to undo this ban? Banning someone from viewingAlso, for what it's worth, @IncendiaryLemon explicitly banned me from watching Sound! so gifs are all I have to go on.
In all seriousness, gifs almost always give a distorted view of what a show truly is. This seems especially true for Sound!, where most viewers seem to only focus on a certain type of scene. Of course, you are free to determine whether you want to give it a shot or not, but in my opinion KyoAni managed to deliver more than 'just a well executed moe blob show':
- Visually it is really nice, from the backgrounds to the animations
- The instrument playing is believable, sound and visuals match up nicely and they weren't afraid to have shots focussing on the hands playing the instrument
- The characters seem refreshingly realistic compared to most high-school anime, as in, they behave like actual high school students
- Yamada's directing is what you'd expect from her
- Attention to detail in practically every aspect. For example; the playing sounds different depending on their location and whether or not they placed some sound blocking material.
IncendiaryLemon
Captain Karen
Also, for what it's worth, @IncendiaryLemon explicitly banned me from watching Sound! so gifs are all I have to go on.
I did?
thedoctor2016
Mushi-shi
I believe you banned him from watching shows you like so he can't dislike them.
Now a new thread as I feel this complicated topic was rather pushing the limits of what the News thread can handle
Difficult to add much to Smeelia's post, really. I see a lot of LGBT+ writers taking issues with the way that sexuality is represented in Japanese entertainment, which certainly does have some merit (LGBT+ culture is a lot less recognised out there in general despite the relatively casual acceptance of homosexual interactions in fiction) but at the same time, forcing everyone to throw their identity into a neat pigeonhole doesn't work for a lot of people, and there is pressure for people to conform. I've seen friends moaning that other non-straight people 'aren't non-straight enough' to 'qualify' or that 'bisexuals are just pretending to be queer' etc as though it's some kind of competition, which is a completely wrong-minded attitude to voice in the fight for equal respect!
But it's a bit patronising, I feel, to say that Japanese people are universally missing the point. My Japanese friends get very incensed about the lack of acceptance they perceive as being prevalent in the US. I was at dinner with one woman once in a fairly nice restaurant and even though she barely spoke a lick of English, when the topic went to LGBT+ rights she stood up, banged on the table and declared 'America is homophobia!'. From where she was standing, the picketing, bullying and aggressive erasure of LGBT+ experiences seemed a thousand times worse than Japan's (differently problematic) culture of openly celebrating fictional or historical same-sex relationships while making modern day gay couples feel marginalised. It's hard.
In an ideal world, I think the 'fuzzy' sexuality would be something I'm much more comfortable with - let everyone go out with whoever they fancy and don't assume that they're always going to pick someone of the opposite sex, thanks - but our real world is far from perfect, and people have realised that a gentler approach seems to naturally result in anyone who differs from the idealised version of the human experience having their preferences and opinions steamrolled by the suffocating grip of what is 'normal'. We've seen a lot of it in anime lately with people (note: on other sites) openly confessing they can't relate to a same-sex male-male relationship like they can a heterosexual one in fiction, even though I've never heard anyone raise that point about things like Strawberry Panic or Kannazuki No Miko. There are plenty of things to complain about in Strawberry Panic but I've never heard 'cannot relate to cute girls fawning over other cute girls' raised as one of them. It confuses me because I've never really felt the need to relate to either side in a romance story in my entire life.
I'd like to see more openly gay men in media, especially happy, well-balanced ones who aren't just there to die tragically as part of the narrative or something. Actual lesbians in the media tend to have a rough time too - again, they're often made into tragic roles and in the case of anime in particular, are often rather young characters who can be hand-waved as still exploring their sexuality (as a heck of a lot of straight-identifying women do) or predators.
I know it's escapism but series where same-sex (or otherwise 'alternative') relationships are quietly and unfussily normalised are great for me. I sorely miss Yazawa Ai's casual and very modern attitude towards LGBT+ folks, and I loved that Yuuri!!! On Ice just got on with it and told a love story without injecting it with a ton of artificial drama.
(Sorry, I rambled a lot while avoiding having to go and see my mother-in-law.)
R
Difficult to add much to Smeelia's post, really. I see a lot of LGBT+ writers taking issues with the way that sexuality is represented in Japanese entertainment, which certainly does have some merit (LGBT+ culture is a lot less recognised out there in general despite the relatively casual acceptance of homosexual interactions in fiction) but at the same time, forcing everyone to throw their identity into a neat pigeonhole doesn't work for a lot of people, and there is pressure for people to conform. I've seen friends moaning that other non-straight people 'aren't non-straight enough' to 'qualify' or that 'bisexuals are just pretending to be queer' etc as though it's some kind of competition, which is a completely wrong-minded attitude to voice in the fight for equal respect!
But it's a bit patronising, I feel, to say that Japanese people are universally missing the point. My Japanese friends get very incensed about the lack of acceptance they perceive as being prevalent in the US. I was at dinner with one woman once in a fairly nice restaurant and even though she barely spoke a lick of English, when the topic went to LGBT+ rights she stood up, banged on the table and declared 'America is homophobia!'. From where she was standing, the picketing, bullying and aggressive erasure of LGBT+ experiences seemed a thousand times worse than Japan's (differently problematic) culture of openly celebrating fictional or historical same-sex relationships while making modern day gay couples feel marginalised. It's hard.
In an ideal world, I think the 'fuzzy' sexuality would be something I'm much more comfortable with - let everyone go out with whoever they fancy and don't assume that they're always going to pick someone of the opposite sex, thanks - but our real world is far from perfect, and people have realised that a gentler approach seems to naturally result in anyone who differs from the idealised version of the human experience having their preferences and opinions steamrolled by the suffocating grip of what is 'normal'. We've seen a lot of it in anime lately with people (note: on other sites) openly confessing they can't relate to a same-sex male-male relationship like they can a heterosexual one in fiction, even though I've never heard anyone raise that point about things like Strawberry Panic or Kannazuki No Miko. There are plenty of things to complain about in Strawberry Panic but I've never heard 'cannot relate to cute girls fawning over other cute girls' raised as one of them. It confuses me because I've never really felt the need to relate to either side in a romance story in my entire life.
I'd like to see more openly gay men in media, especially happy, well-balanced ones who aren't just there to die tragically as part of the narrative or something. Actual lesbians in the media tend to have a rough time too - again, they're often made into tragic roles and in the case of anime in particular, are often rather young characters who can be hand-waved as still exploring their sexuality (as a heck of a lot of straight-identifying women do) or predators.
I know it's escapism but series where same-sex (or otherwise 'alternative') relationships are quietly and unfussily normalised are great for me. I sorely miss Yazawa Ai's casual and very modern attitude towards LGBT+ folks, and I loved that Yuuri!!! On Ice just got on with it and told a love story without injecting it with a ton of artificial drama.
(Sorry, I rambled a lot while avoiding having to go and see my mother-in-law.)
R
st_owly (witch)
Time-Traveller
I highly recommend Fumi Yoshinaga's manga "What Did You Eat Yesterday?" for a very interesting portrayal of a gay male couple in modern Japan. Fumi Yoshinaga has written a lot of traditional BL in the past, but this isn't like most BL in that it's about a couple who just happen to be gay. In the latest volume which just came out in English, they discuss the fact that Shibuya (or whichever ward it is, I can't quite remember) has just started issuing same sex partnership certificates. Go buy the English release as Vertical have done a lovely job with it.
Buzz201
Mad Scientist
I was interested, but sadly it's physical only and super expensive. Why do people continually praise Vertical when they are easily the worst major light novel and manga publisher?
st_owly (witch)
Time-Traveller
I don't care about digital so that doesn't matter to me. Maybe they just couldn't get the rights or something? I don't know what your criteria for super expensive is but the used and new section on Amazon has it pretty cheap. Most volumes seem to be around £5 including shipping. I've been finding Yen more expensive lately.
Buzz201
Mad Scientist
This is off topic now, but no digital is basically a flat no from me now. If you can't get digital rights, you shouldn't be releasing it. I don't care if it costs the same as the paperback/hardcover version, but really, no digital release should not be a thing. (I'm banking here that they'd soon remove their digital holdouts if it was repeatedly given as a reason for declining titles.)
Given Viz's digital releases are only £5 a volume, doubling that for a physical release (when I really don't want physical copies anymore), qualifies as super expensive to me. Though I appreciate my standards on that a probably a lot tighter than anybody else's.
Given Viz's digital releases are only £5 a volume, doubling that for a physical release (when I really don't want physical copies anymore), qualifies as super expensive to me. Though I appreciate my standards on that a probably a lot tighter than anybody else's.
st_owly (witch)
Time-Traveller
Except they're not double the price? As I just said, the used and new section on Amazon has them for around £5 including shipping. I can understand not wanting physical copies if you don't have the space for them though.